Thread: My proof for destiny and a set future

i don't believe in "future"--there is only right now.

Originally posted by Jacky-Woo
... meaning that everything is based on what we will remember in the future, meaning the future is already set...

I don't follow the logic there... I don't believe in Determinism! I believe that thousands and thousands of variables can determine our future in the most random way. I'd like to think that every pattern my life takes is made of the little choices i made, meaning that if i hadn't made those choices, my life would be different right now, meaning that i'm [b]FREE

Either way, you're doing what you want (Destiny is logical. If you didn't like classical music, your destiny wouldn't likely include you going to a classical music concert, would it?), so it doesn't matter either way.

Hmm, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. Its sort of tricky to put in words...

Originally posted by Jacky&#045;Woo+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jacky&#045;Woo)</div>

What I find very weird is the fact that if your memory was wiped, so everything you ever experianced was gone, it would feel as if you were never there experiancing it... meaning that everything is based on what we will remember in the future, meaning the future is already set...[/b]

I'm not against the idea of fate, but I really don't follow your logic. Your main premise appears to be we remember our past...and from that you extrapolate that the future must already be determined. I don't see how A implies B. Unless you're simply implying that our experiences now influence the future, and most certainly they do.

<!--QuoteBegin-mongreloctopus
i don't believe in "future"--there is only right now.

that sort of mentality ultimately results in making very poor decisions.

I agree with that statement, icedawg. A consideration for the future is necessary.

Even I'm having trouble understanding what I was trying to get across now

Even saying "The past is percieved from the present, and the present is the future's past" doesn't really cut it. When I sort out what I was trying to say, I'll be right back!

Originally posted by icedawg

that sort of mentality ultimately results in making very poor decisions.

it's not a mentality, it's a fact. when else have you ever existed?

I think of life as an eternal cycle. Your past affects your present, your present affects your future. All your future can be justified with your past. I believe in destiny as a mission. But HOW will you complete this mission is up to you. You'll never fail, even if you want to.

If you are here right now.... ask yourself: why? You could be anywhere. You could be DEAD. Then why are you here? Does your life have meaning for you? For me?

And what's "Time"? Isn't it just a sequence of events? The Earth spins, we wake up, we do stuff all day, we sleep. Everyday. The world exists for you now, because you're alive. You have memories of where have you been, what have you done. It'll be always that way.
But what about the memories of those who are already dead? Are they forgotten???? OR ARE YOU HERE BECAUSE OF THEM????? Your future defines your past, your past defines your future. All you have left is your present. Bend it as much as you like.

Everything goes on as planned. But that don't mean you don't have free will. You can do whatever you want and whatever you do will produce different effects on everything. It's all a perfect cycle.

You are here not to CHANGE your future..... you are here to MAKE IT.

So......have fun.

I existed in the past, and my decisions back then shaped my present. Treat the present as the futures past, and you'll see his point.

Originally posted by mongreloctopus



it's not a mentality, it's a fact. when else have you ever existed?

I totaly agree... Past and future is only in our heads. All that exists is now. I´m working on making 'now' better =)

Originally posted by Raz
I totaly agree... Past and future is only in our heads. All that exists is now. I´m working on making 'now' better =)

Ah, but in fact, you're actually working at making the immediate future better.

You can't escape it.

I agree. You can live in the present, but the present is always progressing into the future, so you, as well, are moving into the future. And as long as you are moving into the future, your actions are having an effect on it--meaning that you are influencing the future, though you may indeed be short-sighted.

As others have said, there is only right now. The past and future exist only as constructs of our minds; limited by the contemporary notion of time. I will put aside any theory on parallel universes for the moment and assume that this world follows a linear timeline. Within that timeline fate does exist as well as free-will. To illustrate my point, please ponder the following:

If you are to believe that we exert free-will, then every single action taken in the present has an effect on the future. Whatever we do in the present creates the future, so there is no fate, no destiny... right? But if we assume reality is something concrete, then there is only one possible outcome of the future. That outcome is whatever it is that ends up happening. You see, there are many possible futures but only one that will truely come to pass.

Lets just assume that there exists a spiritual being in a timeless astral plane. So this being could see all of time, past, present and future. If this being saw the future, the one future that will happen, then this would prove fate exists. It would also show that the individuals were in no way controlled by fate and retain their free-will. I myself have had premonitions of the future that were surprisingly accurate. There is no way I could explain these experiences unless I am to assume that fate does indeed exist.

// cybereality

*speaker voice*

*Ping Pong*
-T-3minuts until the arival of the future...

-Masta! Masta! What Will we do! The future is coming!

-I'm not sure Imp... I think we need to prepare... How do you think the future will be?

-Not sure masta... I think people will walk around in tinfoil-hatts and cars flying.

-I think they already have that Imp... It's called a plane... Pretty expensive tho. But good public transport...


*Ping Pong*
-T-2minuts until the arival of the future.

-I'm so nervous masta! Do you think we will understand the people in this so called future?

-Only time will tell pet. Do you think we should wear protection? *Hands Imp a oversized healmet and kevlar vest* Just in case...

-Thank you masta... Should we have a 'wellcome to the future' party maby? I can make buffalowings with cheese dip...


*Ping Pong*
-T-1minut untill the arival of the future

-Getting close now! Maby we should hold on to something! Now I'm getting nervus to! Stop with that hyper-ventilation Imp!

-Sorry masta... Just so nervus! Any sec now! What if it kills us all!!!

*Ping Pong*
-The future now here. Enjoy your stay...


-......?

-.....!?

-Thats it?

-I'm confused...

-Thats why I'm the master and you are the Imp.

-Oh... yeah...

I woke up one morning and had made a song in my head. At first I did not realize the spin on word I had put on it.
Normally one would say: Come to terms with life.
The song I had in my head went: let your life come to your terms.

So it got me thinking of how we can (in a sense) create our own destiny. Not in the general sense of how many people think. Not like a manifest destiny. More in terms of shaping the future with our actions today.
You are not changing the future events from the "now" but you can use or manipulate the now by means of the way you make decision and think.
Which in turn effects your future.
Some sit back and let events unfold around them with no control. Which I guess is not really control anyway. It is an attempt to control the future with no certainties.

[Moved to Philosophy]

Originally posted by mongreloctopus
i don't believe in "future"--there is only right now.

Think about what you have said.
You must work for the social security administration.

I wasn't normally into this sort of debate until I was exposed to some of these theories of space and time at the Dream and Awakening camp this past November. Russel Targ was the guest speaker and spoke mostly about remote viewing and how it worked. Now, you don't necessarily have to believe in that sort of thing, but his presentation and experiments helped give me a better sense of what the future really is.

I think the future is constantly evolving before us as we come close to it. The closer we are, the more of an effect we have on it. The present is somewhat like a fighter jet flying through the air approaching the sound barrier. The waves ahead of the jet is the future - those waves touching the jet (the present) are easiest to bend, manipulate, effect.... change. The waves right next to it, are effected, but not quite as much as the closest. The next wave is effected even less... and so on.

The future DOES exist already: you will certainly be logged on to DV for at least 2 seconds after you read this. It's very likely you still will at 5 seconds. 5 minutes? not so sure. As the "waves" of future get further out (in seconds, minutes, hours, etc) you lose a bit of that control. Sure, you can make an appointment to sign on 3 days from now at 2:55pm and say "ah, see, I affected the future just as easily" - BUT - what if your computer doesn't boot up? What if you don't even get to your computer on time because you tripped going up the stairs?

Now, you can also say "I will stay logged on untill 2:55pm 3 days into the future" - and as long as all variables remain constant (computer doesn't shutdown, DV stays online, you remain at the keyboard) it is most likely that the future "event" will take place as planned (or predicted). Remote viewing simply takes a snapshot of that "future" and lets you see if at that particular point in time the shot was taken, the future event is in order or not.

I could go on - but this sort of stuff makes me feel weird, uncomfortable. Kinda lost in this cosmic soup. But, I hope you get what I'm saying.

Originally posted by Tornado Joe
I wasn't normally into this sort of debate until I was exposed to some of these theories of space and time at the Dream and Awakening camp this past November. Russel Targ was the guest speaker and spoke mostly about remote viewing and how it worked. Now, you don't necessarily have to believe in that sort of thing, but his presentation and experiments helped give me a better sense of what the future really is.

I think the future is constantly evolving before us as we come close to it. The closer we are, the more of an effect we have on it. The present is somewhat like a fighter jet flying through the air approaching the sound barrier. The waves ahead of the jet is the future - those waves touching the jet (the present) are easiest to bend, manipulate, effect.... change. The waves right next to it, are effected, but not quite as much as the closest. The next wave is effected even less... and so on.

The future DOES exist already: you will certainly be logged on to DV for at least 2 seconds after you read this. It's very likely you still will at 5 seconds. 5 minutes? not so sure. As the "waves" of future get further out (in seconds, minutes, hours, etc) you lose a bit of that control. Sure, you can make an appointment to sign on 3 days from now at 2:55pm and say "ah, see, I affected the future just as easily" - BUT - what if your computer doesn't boot up? What if you don't even get to your computer on time because you tripped going up the stairs?

Now, you can also say "I will stay logged on untill 2:55pm 3 days into the future" - and as long as all variables remain constant (computer doesn't shutdown, DV stays online, you remain at the keyboard) it is most likely that the future "event" will take place as planned (or predicted). Remote viewing simply takes a snapshot of that "future" and lets you see if at that particular point in time the shot was taken, the future event is in order or not.

I could go on - but this sort of stuff makes me feel weird, uncomfortable. Kinda lost in this cosmic soup. But, I hope you get what I'm saying.

Ah... But all those "waves" of future is in your own creation. You are the center of your universe. Just as I am the center of mine. We do not experiance this world first hand. There is a hand in betwen called nerves and our brain creates the world after what those nervs is telling it.. The entier world as I se it is from my point of view and how my brain iterpet the situation.

Someone once said that time is what stops everything from hapening at once.

If you are sitting in one place. Waiting for somone or something. Time will feal like it's crawling. If you are working hard and have lotts to do Time will feel like it's fying.

Just because I can 'dream' my self away in to a posible future it dose not make it real. I can visualise a possible 'future' just like I can visualise a my past. But it's all my own creation and only in my head.

If something happens that alot of people wittnes and re-tell the story is never totaly the same...

'Now' is how your brain interpets the curent situation. There is only now to change. If you dont like how things are 'now'. Change it in to a now that you like... Time from a human point of view is so we can syncronise.

I'ts not about not having goals in life... Or negecting what has hapend in your life. It's about not clinging to the past or having your mind wander in your dreams about the future all the time. There is only now. So live and enjoy now.

If the future is just in your head, why don't you let your mind suck up the excess billions of tons of carbon dioxide that humans have polluted into the atmosphere since the industrial revolution so that our ice caps don't melt in 60-100 years. Really, I can understand the philosophical attraction of the idea that everything is just an illusion and all in your head. It makes the world far less threatening when you feel it is under your control. But honestly, our actions today do have consequences tomorrow (and the next day and the day after), and those consequences, whether you pretend they will come to pass or not, will one day sneak up the pipes in your toilet as you sit there contemplating the eternal now and bite you in the ass. They’ll bite all of us in the ass. Foresight may not be the most developed human ability (and certainly isn't, if history is any indication), but if we do not wish to destroy ourselves, this planet, and everything on it, we're going to have stop pretending that living just for the moment is an acceptable way to govern both our lives and our civilizations.

I find it odd that many of the people on this thread who have expressed the belief that the future is only an illusion of the present are also people who have professed beliefs in environmental protection. Why protect the environment if the future does not exist? Why not just use it all up now, take from it what you can now, convert it all into pleasure and comfort now? Why do you plant a tree instead of chopping it down today? If not to see it tomorrow, to watch it bear fruit tomorrow, offer shade tomorrow, sequester carbon tomorrow, then why?

Making now better may seem like a great idea, but every junkie who shoots up or lights up or snorts current comfort into his body and brain so that now seems just a little better knows that morning will come. Morning comes until you die, and in the morning, you have to answer for your actions of the night before. We have to answer for our actions as well, maybe tomorrow, maybe a year from now, maybe ten. But morning will come. So make your now as pleasant as possible, but do not sacrifice the future for the present out of ignorance or blindness. If you say the future does not exist and you live as though it does not exist, you will make it so. You can kill yourself before morning.

the viewpoint that there exists only the present doesn't cause you to be irresponsible. if you're irresponsible, you'll be irresponsible regardless. if you're responsible, you'll be responsible regardless. if you take the notion that the "now" is all that exists and use it as an excuse to party down and act like an idiot, you haven't accepted that idea--you still know there is a future and you are pretending it doesn't exist for the sake of acting like a jerk. it's not the same thing. also, being that my mind creates the illusion of past and future, just as everyone else's does, i can't honestly say that i don't "believe" in the future, because that's a large portion of what my life is based around...however, it's a change in perspective i'm striving towards.

Originally posted by Peregrinus
If the future is just in your head, why don't you let your mind suck up the excess billions of tons of carbon dioxide that humans have polluted into the atmosphere since the industrial revolution so that our ice caps don't melt in 60-100 years. Really, I can understand the philosophical attraction of the idea that everything is just an illusion and all in your head. It makes the world far less threatening when you feel it is under your control. But honestly, our actions today do have consequences tomorrow (and the next day and the day after), and those consequences, whether you pretend they will come to pass or not, will one day sneak up the pipes in your toilet as you sit there contemplating the eternal now and bite you in the ass. They’ll bite all of us in the ass. Foresight may not be the most developed human ability (and certainly isn't, if history is any indication), but if we do not wish to destroy ourselves, this planet, and everything on it, we're going to have stop pretending that living just for the moment is an acceptable way to govern both our lives and our civilizations.

I find it odd that many of the people on this thread who have expressed the belief that the future is only an illusion of the present are also people who have professed beliefs in environmental protection. Why protect the environment if the future does not exist? Why not just use it all up now, take from it what you can now, convert it all into pleasure and comfort now? Why do you plant a tree instead of chopping it down today? If not to see it tomorrow, to watch it bear fruit tomorrow, offer shade tomorrow, sequester carbon tomorrow, then why?

Making now better may seem like a great idea, but every junkie who shoots up or lights up or snorts current comfort into his body and brain so that now seems just a little better knows that morning will come. Morning comes until you die, and in the morning, you have to answer for your actions of the night before. We have to answer for our actions as well, maybe tomorrow, maybe a year from now, maybe ten. But morning will come. So make your now as pleasant as possible, but do not sacrifice the future for the present out of ignorance or blindness. If you say the future does not exist and you live as though it does not exist, you will make it so. You can kill yourself before morning.

You are missing my point... I'm not saying stop caring or go on a path of self destruction and live like there is no tomorrow. Now is not one instant frozen in time... Now is forever changing and we can all work on that change for the better. Who said you have to be ignorant to live in the now? I would say that people who cling to the past or live in their dreams about the future are ignorant. You could say that what we perceive as time passing is actually just 'change'. The universe is now. Now is changing and we have the power to point in witch direction that change will be. But there is and will always just be now.

Originally posted by Jacky&#045;Woo
I existed in the past, and my decisions back then shaped my present. Treat the present as the futures past, and you'll see his point.

Yes, this point proves that out actions in the present shape the future. However, this means that there is no such thing as destiny, only the consequences of our actions.

Of course you could trace it all the way back to birth and claim that all events are pre-determined by past events, but determinism is impossible to prove and impossible to disprove.

Plus, determinism resulting in "destiny" is not a really appealing version of destiny at all.

The thing that pisses me off the most in these discussions is that people inevitably bring what they would like to be true.

"Oh there has to be free will, I don't like the idea of fate."

"Oh that's not true, it's not appealing to me."

That point of view is complete and utter horseshit. There's no reason that the actual physical realities of the universe have to coincide with what anyone may or may not like.

[/rant]

Originally posted by bradybaker
The thing that pisses me off the most in these discussions is that people inevitably bring what they would like to be true.

"Oh there has to be free will, I don't like the idea of fate."

"Oh that's not true, it's not appealing to me."

That point of view is complete and utter horseshit. There's no reason that the actual physical realities of the universe have to coincide with what anyone may or may not like.

[/rant]

Or as Terry goodkind put it:

Originally posted by Raz
Now is forever changing and we can all work on that change for the better.

It seems, then, that you are simply redefining terms rather than offering up some new perspective. Instead of saying "future," you say, "the now of when I'm a few seconds/minutes/years older." What's the point? It's the same thing - events which are yet to be and which, when experienced, will be experienced as the present. However, what will be experienced as the present in a few years is called by most people "the future." All you're doing is making the semantics more difficult (unless there is some revolutionary philosophy underlying your post upon which you have yet to elaborate).

Originally posted by Raz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Raz)</div>

Who said you have to be ignorant to live in the now? I would say that people who cling to the past or live in their dreams about the future are ignorant.[/b]

One does not have to live in the past to learn from it, nor must one live in one's dreams to have them, desire their reality, and make plans to bring them to fruition in waking life. I agree that dwelling on past experiences to the exclusion of one's present situation is unhealthy and that living only in one's dreams without working to make them a reality is not the key to a productive and happy life, but so would almost anybody. You set up a straw man here, suggesting, erroneously, that acknowledging the existence of the future means one ignores the present moment and leaves in unappreciated and withering in the senses. That is quite simply untrue.

<!--QuoteBegin-Raz
You could say that what we perceive as time passing is actually just 'change'. The universe is now. Now is changing and we have the power to point in witch direction that change will be. But there is and will always just be now.

So what's your point? Again, this isn't new - it's just using more confusing language to say the same thing. Time is the medium through which change happens - that's a perfectly acceptable way of describing it. But time exists by the very fact that we observe change. "Now" is the ever-rolling intersection of past and future, like a wave rising from the ocean and curling back into it at the same moment. You can remember the past, but at one time, it was your "now" - your memories were formed in that "now". However, since you are currently not experiencing those events as the present but rather as memories of events which have already happened, we call it the "past". And the things which you imagine and which you dream, if they come to pass, will be experienced in the present moment, but since they have not yet come to pass, we say that to your current self, those events are in the "future." See how much easier using these simple, standard terms makes a discussion?

When you say that “there is no future,” it sounds like you are denying the causal relationship between events which have happened, events which are currently happening, and events which are yet to happen. It seems this is not your intent; however, such statements lend themselves quite well to misunderstandings.