Religion

**O'nus** · 01-12-2004 02:19 AM

Yes this is going to be long so you better have some spare time on your hands

Before I divulge into anything, I'd like to first say that I won't be retorting to anyones points oppressively. Religion is a touchy subject, as we all know. However I believe that the basis of religion is.. beliefs! We all have our beliefs and in order to find your true beliefs, ethics, and values, you must hear others opinions and arguments. This is how we learn, grow, live!

With that said, I can imagine a copasetic thread. A while back a typed this up, but I still abide by it. Thankfully, I didn't try to use countless polysylvalic terms, I actually went over it and dimmed down a few words to try and simplify so anyone could understand; for that is the point of literature, isn't it? To communicate? Not to just sound smart.. anyways.. here goes:

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First of all, I see Religions as an excuse to not fear death. This, however, is quite alright as many of us need some form of hope and something to hang onto when we have nothing left for us. Those who are poor, having problems at home, a relative is dying, etc. They may rely on God to be someone who will offer support and try to help them. It is, essentially (and in my opinion) a imaginary source of hope and source for support for people. It helps to ease the mind knowing that, no matter what, there is still an all mighty God up there who will look after you, although, it is simply that; an imaginary being. There is nothing that proves the existance of God, nothing; it is an ideal and philosophy that many people have created in order to create a form of hope. It let's people not fear death because, as long as they do certain things, they will go to heaven, otherwise, they go to hell. This seems logical to most humans; if you abide by these rules, you'll be rewarded with a good afterlife, otherwise, you have a bad afterlife. It seems very rationale and logical to many humans, especially since it is a basis of logic within our lives and society; do things right, and good things come to. But this does not mean your entire life must abide by rules. Why would God restrict you to do certain things whereas he gives you the option to choose "evil"? Freedom of choice is what a God should truly want to give his minions and creations, to choose what they become. I'd go in further, but I will cover this in the "Life" section.

God is a good reason to not fear death, for the basis of a rewarded afterlife seems very logical to us humans. Sometimes, though, sacrifices are required, and thus wars erupt. This is where God is abused. In order to get into heaven, you must fight for it, even though your enemy is doing the samething... How can two people fighting both hope to get into heaven by fighting for it? Is it the winner that goes to heaven because they proved themself stronger? Or is it the one who died for their beliefs and sacrificed themself? Religion is an excuse for war on our primal instincts of bloodlust. Just like all animals, we need violence and bloodshed, and religion gives us that excuse to do such. Thus, Churches and religions turn into recruit offices where they preach that "Jesus died for your sins! Come and worship him!" then, when you'rein, they ask for your money and to abide by their rules and ethics laid out in a book written by people who have seen things that only potheads have equal stories to.

Religions each consist of basis and rules for a proper afterlife in their culture. There are over hundreds of different mass religions and groups that each offer there own afterlife and ways to achieve it; some with great sacrifices, some with none. Thus, each religion is trying to get more members of their religion. This reminds me of clans in online games; they offer reason why you should join then, how they are better than others, etc. but essentially, you still do the samething in every one of them, with the same motivation, just a different insignia on yourself (or colors..whatever). Do I see relgions and church as recruitment for war and money? Yes, but I also see it as a form of brainwashing and attempts to spread their own personal beliefs upon others, so, in a subtle manner, they have a form of control over large amounts of people that they have manipulate/influenced. Yes,I do know that you do not have to go to church, there is no admittance fee, etc. Like I said, they do it very subtly and with no oppression, but this is mostly because churches are commonly for the form of hope in which many of us humans need. In other words, the war churches and their war motivations are not necessarily at the church. The motivations for war imparted by religion are abused by politicians; especially the united states of america. What do the presidents say at the end of every one of their speaches? What do american soldiers say to dismiss their meetings and conversations? "God bless the US" This small phrase makes it seem that God is on their side and attempts to put themselves on a higher status then other cultures and religions which does give motivation to american troops and civillians alike, but also inadvertadly angers other countries accusing them of false religions and beliefs. This is how many holy wars are provoked.

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Hope I've been enlightening, and I hope to hear some other views

**Aphius** · 01-12-2004 03:22 AM

Originally posted by O'nus
\"God bless the US\" This small phrase makes it seem that God is on their side

Yeah... whats with that? one would certainly hope that they also wish well to other countries, besides just putting themselves on a pedestal. Couldn't they say something like god bless the earth? or god bless humanity? Y'know something to wish us all well. or is because it has that certain ring to it because it kind of rhymes, and we all know how people looove catchy phrases...

I do believe that there is some kind of afterlife and while i find the concept of hell laughable and heaven doubtful, i think that there is something there to go to when we die but if there is someone there to judge me, i say "Let them come" I'll answer for my actions if i have to.

Well sorry for ranting, you have some good points

and lets hope we can all discuss religion and our veiws like sane people.

**Lucius** · 01-12-2004 08:56 AM

Oh my here we go..again. Im not going to go to deep into this as I have multiple times already. But, first of all, in my eyes religion is not some exuse to not fear death. I think the orginal religion is also diffirent from nowdays western religion. Religion should be something to make you obtain more self knowledge, to develope as a person and find a greater goal. Not to be rewarded in the end, or to use for an exuse not to fear death. I suppose some people do use it that way, but I dont think thats the case with most people though.

Im not a christian though..and I dont believe in that one God as a person...and I dont believe that the one who fights the hardest for his religion is the best person. Basicly religion should be something that preaches peace and harmony. You know I could go on and on for hours, but I dont really have that much time..and this is going to result in a topic with posts of pro religion people arguing with anti religion/atheist people.
Im not saying thats bad..but ive seen it. Im a little tired I gues..so sorry if im bashing the topic right now, but im a little low on fuel right now lol

**Lowercase Society** · 01-12-2004 11:42 AM

This is a VERY touchy subject. seriously.

im going to just watch my tongue and not say anything for now at least.

Superceding feelings of guilt represent the silhouette you present in front of me. -me[/b]

**will.i.am** · 01-12-2004 11:52 AM

Yup, and I'll be right behind Lowercase Society trying to look over his shoulder and jumping up and down screaming, "Wait, what's going on?!"

**O'nus** · 01-12-2004 03:18 PM

Oh please, divulge, divulge, I want to hear your views.

I'm not going to fire back and be oppressive, I want to hear what you all have to say.

Please don't hold back Lucius!

**jacobo** · 01-12-2004 09:37 PM

in my eyes, religion is just a tool to keep the masses in line. a tool to keep people working their day to day lives. giving them false hopes, telling them that if they do this for their country they will be rewarded for their "good deeds." -- you said it only about 10x better O'nus.

"Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening,
terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in
this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the
religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by
giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their
view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and
learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness;
chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.

Think for yourself.
Question authority."

**jacobo** · 01-12-2004 09:38 PM

also...

belief-o-matic

this is a fun little survey. answer all the questions, rate the importance of the questions and they'll tell you what you believe. apparently i'm a unitarian universalists.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

**Serinanth** · 01-12-2004 11:55 PM

Look its a touchy subject because you guys are actually bashing alot of peoples core beleifs, blaming them for all the crap that goes on in the world and not looking at the good things they do. And you guys arent going after one beleif your going after releigion in general, the whole kitandkaboodle, of course alot of people are gona be ticked.

But you seem to be neglecting the fact that its dark/evil/GREEDY people that have power, that are the ones causing most of these problems. They are smart enough to use religions as means to atttain support and backing to their cause, at the same time disallusioning the people following that faith.

Mutters... I broke the beleif o matic... cnfused it into thinking im protestant

Religions, nessesary for the growth of spirit, gives a base on which to grow and form your own ideas. I dont think any of us will know what we beleive in this life untill the day we die, there is too much for us to know.

They give an emotional coushin for the blow death deals to us, when we lose somone we love, untill you realise death is an illusion and does not exist.

Even science knows about the laws of concervation of energy...

Do you have any idea how much energy we consist of? and I dont just mean the physical body...
There is no way that so much energy can just ceace to be.

WILL... think of how much one person can do, one person can cahnge the world, its happened before and it will happen again. And most of those religions have one or several of those people at their basis... and think.. thousands of years later people are still talking and unfortunatly arguing about them instead of learning of each one and adding what they tried to share with everyone to your own experience, it may not be exactly what you beleive but it might make you think and realise some aspect of life you had not thought of.

What did you do today?

I dont follow any of the mainstream religons because I dont know enough of them, and most are slightly different than how I see things at the moment.
It seems everyone bashes religion saying they are such a horrible thing. The religion causes war thing is played out now, PEOPLE use religion as EXCUSE to cause war, it does not cause war itself. There are the fanatic CRAZY people that do break that norm though. People are not inhernetly evil or good either, they learn and then choose to walk a path. but without evil there would be no good and vice versa.

We contiue we learn grow, the universe learns and grows, along with attaining a better understanding of itself.

**YULAW** · 01-13-2004 12:06 AM

Well Said Serinanth. I decided not to venture off into the religon subjects anymore it does get a little chaotic. I just want to eat this Hot Dog I just Boiled!

***runs out the door yelling***

Hot Dogs Get Your Fresh Hot Dogs!!!!
Get em' while they're hot Get em' while They're still barking!!!

**Serinanth** · 01-13-2004 12:20 AM

hehe thanks, I was dubioius but I think religion needed a little defense.. hehe and this coming from one who isint part of one of the major religions =)

I think the main thing, the most important thing is that everyone is blaming religions... (which are a beleifs)
Instead of the People that are responsible for those horrid actions.

Also other countries and armies also ask god to pray for them.. its not jsut the united states... The troops are doing their jobs for the most part, some are crazy zealots that strap bombs to themselves because they have been dissalusioned by a living human being and not a religion.

**Lucius** · 01-13-2004 12:44 AM

I about agree with what Seri said there..^_^

Generally Im not really a fan of this big organized world religions..they all dont really fit myself either. Exept buddism, but even buddism has some flaws in my eyes.

Thats why Im more atracted to the smaller occult movements and believes, if you would consider that a religion..of course I dont even follow one occult stream in particular either, like seri, I have my own ideas about it all. I just blend and mix it with some buddhist and occult ideas.

Like I said, I think alot of people have forgotten what religion is truely about..and like seri said, they use it for an exuse to go to war sometimes(or alot). This is just plain stupid.
But its those crappy world leaders that send out their soldiers to war..iots the stupid terrorist leader that sends out his soldiers..because if you look at it most religious people DISAGREE with the war. Take iraq for example, most christians in the US didnt like what Bush was doing, and most Muslims dont like the doings of people like Osama/Saddam. Its just a small radical group(small compaired to the whole) that does do this.

Religion is about living in peace and harmony. To help eachother and to be there for one another. Not to smash in somebodies head because he thinks diffirently. Religion is there for people to grow as a person, to learn about the thing called life. We all learn in diffirent ways but religion is not there to violently show our views to others.
Sure, a part in me hates how some organize religions tread some people, like christians and gays, muslims and women etc. But thats just what they believe I suppose, and another part says I have to respect that..
People over the whole,in general, should respect and accept eachother on a greater level then they are doing now.

The current values of the world, the current point of view of most people are just shit. People only see money,power,fame,influence etc and themselves..we should be glad that there are still some religions like christianity still exist over here in the west, else it would be an even bigger ego-centric, a-social society.

Just go along,respect eachother, live in peace, everybody is right in the end. "We all get what we deserve in the end,never what we want"(how many times do I have say that..^_^) If you wanna fight a holy war, go to the astral and fight darkness ^_^ , brings me to it seri..I gues Im ignoring your advice to go silently..you know what I mean. But this works for me...^_^

**Serinanth** · 01-13-2004 01:10 AM

Light and Dark, one cannot exist without the other.
Alone they are nothing, together they make up all of existance.

Would singular star shining in the night sky be lookes upon with awe and wonder, were it not for the almost engulfing darkness surrounding it?

Would a shaded glade be saught after with such relish on a hot summers day were it not for the sun shining down upon the earth?

No...

One cannot exist without the other.

What would you do, destroy a part of yourself? I am not at war on the astral plane with darkness. If I am threatened sure I fight back in defense, I am not part of any war.

Shine your brightest when the darkness tries to snuff, but it is only for balance, not to win, there is nothing to win, if all of darkness was banished, we would all be wandering around blindly in the light..

Yinyang is not two things it is one whole.

**Gaz** · 01-13-2004 05:30 AM

I would like to believe in a religion but I cant, I do believe in some sort of afterlife but I could never be Christian. If Christianities teaching were true, then some of them pretty harsh in my point of view. For example, being banished to hell for eternity for not believing in God, This isn’t really fair on people born in countries where Christianity is not the main religion, and babies and children that are too young to understand god when they die. If this is true I recon something like 90% of the people on earth are going to hell! And why does God need us to believe in him?

It could be said that a lot of the way we interpretate Christianity and its teachings is a lot down to us, I don’t think Christians 1000 years ago had the same values as Christians today, Religious beliefs change with time and culture changes, for example contraception was seemed unacceptable but now is accepted and it seems Gays are being accepted more, tell me if im wrong. I think if there is a god he wouldn’t agree with a lot of the things that preiest ect teach. It’s just all down to perception though.

I think we would do a lot better just to believe in ourselves.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

Good Lyrics by bob dylan

**Lucius** · 01-13-2004 07:56 AM

Seri,

I understand what your saying and those are wise words indeed. But still I cannot follow them. I know darkness and light cant exist without eachother, and that there will always be darkness.
But, the darkness keeps fighting aswell, and so will we light siders..you need warriors aswell to keep that balance. I wish I could go quietly,or try and be a little balanced, but I cant. The darkness pushed me once to far..I can stand alot but I cannot stand everything..it fills me with anger, but I use that anger to create a calm willpower.

I cannot banish all darkness, but I can keep it away, I can defend fight for the lightside and most of all for those I care for most, I know that darkness is natural aswell, but still I am convinced of my right, like a little crazed paladin.

Just defense is not enough for me, I wish I could be more like you and go quietly, but I accepted that I wont have that much peace time, but I like being a "paladin". Deep inside I know this is right for me, to fight it to openly challenge it..because it challenges me, it seeks to destroy me and whats even worse..it crossed that border I cannot stand.

You once told me this..I still remember.

"The more light one shines, the more darkness resists you.."
"Only when you are ultimately balanced you can avoid conflict, or when you try and go quietly"

But what if one generates such an amount of light..that the darkness is blinded..its like a vacumcleaner, it can only suck up so many dust..until it goes pop...

**Kaniaz** · 01-13-2004 09:24 AM

Originally posted by adidas
also...

belief-o-matic

this is a fun little survey. answer all the questions, rate the importance of the questions and they'll tell you what you believe. apparently i'm a unitarian universalists.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

Apparently, I'm also a Unitarian Universalist.

Religion? It can be a good and a bad thing (in my opinon). While it's nice for people to be able to confide in somebody/something, and give them the strength to go on, it can also be bad, because you sometimes get wars over religion.

(ex: Mary Queen of Scots burnt 600 Protestants, when they refused to become catholics, in 2 years. That's an average of 1 every 5 days she was queen)

**Serinanth** · 01-13-2004 05:40 PM

Lucius I do understand whatyour saying, I was there =) If you were to shine so brightly that it banished darkness you would create an imbalance and that imbalance would be corrected, that is the nature of the universe, some dark evil thing would rear its head and pummel the crap out of you.. How do I know this? I tried to do the same. I got my ass kicked again and again and again and again... Im thick headed I refused to give up, but then I realised what was going on. I changed, I did not give up though. Think about what happens when you increase the light with a dimmer switch in a room, the shadows become more sharp and more easily visible...

You simply cannot banish the darkness, and like I said before, If you did, you would be wandering around blindly in the light, just as blind as you would be waslking around in the darkness.

I know it seems like its out to get "you" But it is not, its simply trying to retain balance, light and dark are old, about as old as it gets, they do not have emotions and they have but one goal, balance. I know it dosent seem this way when somone you love is attacked, but if you go looking for a fight you will find it, and there will be no end to it, all it will bring you is pain and suffering to you AND the ones you love.

Please, just give it a try, you will find things will quiet down, you will be left alone for the most part, you will find peace, time to share with the one you love and wont have to worry about the darkness.

I learned the hard way, I sincerely wish you heed my words, so that you dont have to. If you must you must... and theres nothing I can do to stop you but be prepared, its not fun, and it will get worse and worse.

**Aphius** · 01-13-2004 10:34 PM

Talking about religion around here isn't something that can be resolved, and everytime i've said something about religion and my beliefs someone tells me i'm being unfair to others who believe differently.

you guys are actually bashing alot of peoples core beleifs[/b]

Its really annoying to be honest, , i thought that we were trying to be understanding here and respecting others beliefs. Even if that means they dont agree with what is believed by others. I dont belive in any of the mainstream religions either but sort of mix what is best and reflects my views. No matter what anyone says about different religions and what they believe it wont change peoples views, maybe those who never really believed in them in the first place may be swayed but not the true believers. Defense of the religion itself is not necessary. i'm not forcing others to believe what i believe and those who dont like what is said will probably just disregard it as irrelevant. These are my beliefs and i voiced them as i saw fit, but i will not push them onto others like they are the only. Otherwise i would be no better than the people who opress others and start wars over their beliefs.

**Serinanth** · 01-13-2004 10:41 PM

Sorry, I may have come off a little strong there too,

it just seemed one sided, and everyone focusing on the negative =/ You have every right to beleive what you do but sometimes what we beleive seems offensive to others thats why these discussions are tricky we lose alot of what somone is saying becausewe cannot hear what they are saying only what they have typed, and emotion inflection and feeling is lost.
I hope your not miffed at me

**O'nus** · 01-13-2004 10:48 PM

Yeah.. I never said my beliefs were right (defeats the purpose of beliefs), just saying my view on the matter (matter being life in general). Sorry if I come off offensively, but it's only my intention to let you know what I think and hopefully have the feeback in turn.

**YULAW** · 01-13-2004 10:50 PM

Who is O'nus?

**O'nus** · 01-13-2004 11:07 PM

Originally posted by ShadowNightWing
Who is O'nus?

Uhm, I'm O'nus! Hi! *Waves*

Not sure what you're referring to if you're talking about what I said..

**YULAW** · 01-13-2004 11:08 PM

Okay if you're O'nus then who the heck is O'nuru?

**Lucius** · 01-13-2004 11:51 PM

Seri...

I just know you are right but I dont know what to do sometimes..please tell. I can never be balanced..there is just to much of the darkness that I hate. But your right, I am shining and shining right now, and the effects are only negative, the shit has increased like mad, and am I making progress..no way.

But I just hate darkside emotions..what do I have to do then? Stay light but shine a little less? Go quietly? Be a quiet wanderer..like a rogue? I would really apreciate advice on the matter...because I to know that this is not working out..and Im turning to much in some kind of crazy holy avenger, which isnt good at all..

Im to pissed at the darkness while I know its a natural thing, this isnt doing anything good for me..I am a fighter now..but deep inside I dont wanna fight..I just wanna live in peace..like I always wanted..like the little idealist I am..mabey I should get back to that...I dont know.
Please..any advice would be highly apreciated, what would you do then? What would you have done diffirently, if you had that chance..thanks.

**phantasy** · 01-14-2004 12:35 AM

Ack this subject again!

I'm not really going to get into it. All I see that people on this board seem to only know or have known the Christian religion and whatever they flaws they find from it, left it and complied their own beliefs over time and thought. I mean, no one here ever mentioned leaving Judaism or Hinduism.

So I'm going to take a risk and steer a little towards being preachy.
Look at Islam. Just look at it and read about it. That's all I ask before you condemn all religions all at once. Don't reply if you don't want or don't like. Just look. Know its there.
It just bothers me to know most people do not know this religion exists or what it says.
And I do not mean its history or the people assiociated with its history. I know we get a lot of bad press from current events. What the religion itself says. Not to convert, just to stop the bashing of organized religions.

Hey if you guys get to say stuff about all religions put into one, I get to say this one thing!

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