Thread: Thoughts on the subconscious

How can I pick any one of your poll selections?

Sure there's a subconscious, and it influences everything. The idea that it is any sort of a separate personality with the ability to communicate in normal terms, I believe, is not accurate.

Anything you do not using conscious thought is sub-conscious by definition. Your heart beat and other body functions are a start. When you type, drive, play an instrument, speak... all those motions and things you do to make them happen are subconscious. Try for a moment to imagine what it would be like to have to think about every bite, chew, swallow, salivation and all else involved for every mouthful of food at a meal. It would be nuts!

It gets more complicated than that when we start getting into psychological reactions, feelings, response and those sorts of things... but it all rides below consciousness unless we deliberately pull it up to the conscious level - like we do when we start trying to remain lucid in our dreams.

Or so it seems to me.

I think there is something that can be called 'subconcious', the fact that the name exist and even things that can only be explained by it, like the subconcious reaction to feromones and the subconsious seeing of subliminal messages.

I do not think the subconcious is a special part of the brain, I think there are no special areas for concious and subconcious. But perhaps the subconcious thinking-lines skip the part of reasoning, signals don't use the route though like a reasoning (concious making) process center, but just work though basic instincts.

I don't think we will ever really know. Allso, I don't think there can be said "THIS is the subconcious" the human brain is to complex and yet way to un-understood to be explained by a few words

I'd say the subconscious is the part of the mind that comes up with thoughts before they are translated into language in our minds.

Quick post, I want to say more later. I want to say that we have multiple subconscious processes.

Originally posted by pj+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pj)</div>

Anything you do not using conscious thought is sub-conscious by definition. Your heart beat and other body functions are a start.[/b]

Actually, those are considered unconscious processes, not subconscious (although one can control one's heartbeat and breathing to a certain extent).

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When you type, drive, play an instrument, speak... all those motions and things you do to make them happen are subconscious.

I certainly hope you're using your conscious thought processes when you drive!

Originally posted by Peregrinus

I certainly hope you're using your conscious thought processes when you drive!

And I sure hope you are NOT!

Seriously... what makes a new driver so bloody dangerous? It is that he has to think, "Ok... I should start stopping here. Let's see... pick my foot off the accerator, put it on the brake... press... OOPS! Not that hard. Back off. Little harder. Damn. Ok... there... that's good. OH NO!!!"

An experienced driver handles all the motions subconsciously. The details of anything we develop into a skill falls out of the conscious level, leaving us to use our conscious processes for more important things.

A beginning musician must concentrate intently on where to put fingers, how hard to push, and a million other pesky details. There is no room for artistry - she's completely absorbed in just trying to hit the right notes at the right time and trying to make them sound not awful. As experience is gained, those thoughts can be turned to nuance, dynamics, phrasing - artistry. That would't be possible without the subconscious.

i think in order for this discussion to actually have any sort of meaning, it's important to agree upon the definition of 'subconscious'.

A beginning musician must concentrate intently on where to put fingers, how hard to push, and a million other pesky details. There is no room for artistry - she's completely absorbed in just trying to hit the right notes at the right time and trying to make them sound not awful. As experience is gained, those thoughts can be turned to nuance, dynamics, phrasing - artistry. That would't be possible without the subconscious.[/b]

to me, this is not the subconscious. this is the conscious mind acting with a complete mastery and confidence of every single muscle twitch and neural pathway. i think of the sub-conscious as a kind of built in personality of which we are not really aware, but expresses it through actions that we don't feel entirely in control of. the "freudian slip," for example...or becoming annoyed at someone/something for seemingly no reason at all.

Easier said than done.

Here's Dictionary.com's def:

sub·con·scious
adj.
Not wholly conscious; partially or imperfectly conscious: subconscious perceptions.
n.
The part of the mind below the level of conscious perception. Often used with the.[/b]

Here's American Heritage:

adj.
Not wholly conscious but capable of being made conscious.[/b]

These are consistant with the way most of us have been using the term. In other contexts, it brings different meanings. NLP has a very broad definition of the subconscious, treating it as a separate, more basic or animal "personality" that underlies our consciousness.

(Cutting it here to see if it posts... something weird is happening.)

(Continuing...)

We can get into the etymology to see how the word was derived and came into use, perhaps:

1823, "not wholly conscious" (implied in subconsciously), from sub- + conscious. First attested in De Quincey. The noun, in the psychological sense, is attested from 1886; earlier subconsciousness (1874).[/b]

(Etymology.com)

Sub - below... conscious... thought. Below thought. That seems simple enough, but not terribly useful to our question. How complicated do we want to get? That needs to be answered by the one who posed the question, I guess.

Regarding:

to me, this is not the subconscious. this is the conscious mind acting with a complete mastery and confidence of every single muscle twitch and neural pathway. [/b]

I heartily disagree with you here. Have you ever experienced muscle memory? Have you ever reacted to something before you even really became CONSCIOUSLY aware it was happening? I sure have, and I'll bet you have too. I can carry on a conversation while playing Carulli's "The Tempest" on classical guitar, for example, and forget that I'm even playing it. The playing won't be gorgeous, but the notes will be right and in time.

When I turn my attention to it, I can consciously bring in the dynamics, nuances and interpretation that make it musical.

(Boy was that weird. Something in these last two posts resulted in a PHP error from the server. I had to piece the thing in here with repeated edits to get it to take!)

Originally posted by pj
I heartily disagree with you here. Have you ever experienced muscle memory? Have you ever reacted to something before you even really became CONSCIOUSLY aware it was happening? I sure have, and I'll bet you have too. I can carry on a conversation while playing Carulli's "The Tempest" on classical guitar, for example, and forget that I'm even playing it. The playing won't be gorgeous, but the notes will be right and in time.

When I turn my attention to it, I can consciously bring in the dynamics, nuances and interpretation that make it musical.

Then it's not entirely subconscious, is it? The same is true of driving. Yes, experienced drivers do use muscle memory to turn a vehicle precisely or quickly switch their feet between clutch, brake, and accelerator; however, those are merely the mechanics of driving - just as knowing where the notes are on a musical instrument forms the foundational mechanics of playing music. The mechanics are not the thing itself. Driving without constantly, consciously checking one's surroundings, maneuvering one's vehicle into a safer position with respect to other cars and trucks, changing speed based on conditions, etc, is dangerous. That is how people who are talking on their cell phones drive, and multiple research studies have shown that drivers talking on their phones drive as poorly and as dangerously as those who are driving with a blood alcohol level above the legal limit. Drivers on cell phones are devoting the majority of their conscious attention to the conversation in which they are engaged, leaving their subconscious or unconscious (I'll leave that as an "or" since we haven't actually addressed the difference in those two terms yet) to do the driving. And as the researchers who performed those cell phone driving studies and anyone who's almost been run off the road by a driver with a cell phone plastered to their ear can tell you, those drivers, running on sub/unconscious processes are not capable of safely and efficiently handling their vehicles.

Oh yes, and those who play music based solely on muscle memory, playing it by rote without thinking about the music, without feeling its nuances, without expressing and responding to its ebb and flow are not musicians.

And now back on the track Howetzer originally set out in this post: I believe that there are thoughts and feelings and analyses which are ongoing in our minds and yet below our conscious perception – similar to the background processes running on your PC. People choose which of those thoughts/feelings/analyses to experience through attention. To continue the computer metaphor, it’s like clicking on the little faded-out window on your desktop and bringing it to the fore. The word “subconscious” has a lot of popular-culture connotations and I know that some psychologists don’t like it for that reason, but I continue to use the word mainly because it’s convenient and I’m usually too lazy to offer up a lengthier, albeit probably more specific and accurate, description of exactly what I wish to discuss.

unconsciousness, subconsciousness, consciousness, and "superconsciousness" are all a continium (operating simultaneously IMO).

other than that i'm not going to say more on this subject...few get bogged down with semantics so quickly...

Originally posted by pj+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pj)</div>

How can I pick any one of your poll selections?[/b]

I can certainly change the poll questions. It can be such a broad topic with countless variables that perhaps I should have not made it in a format of a poll.
My general Question is in regards to the subconscious. And though I believe that there is one I offer up the challenge that you point it out as fact for me.

I believe pj that you are confusing involuntary actions with that of conscious reactions. It is closer to unconscious actions like peregrine said, than that of subconscious.
You have consciously learned a skill. Fine. But to be able to do this learned skill becomes habitual by nature. A new driver is learning a new skill, that is why they are a danger, not because they are actually thinking about what they are doing. If it was a subconscious skill why are cell phones a danger while driving?

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I think in order for this discussion to actually have any sort of meaning, it's important to agree upon the definition of 'subconscious'.

To account for what the subconscious is the entire quandary!

I personally feel that it adds an entire abstract realm of thought that is only tapped into on occasion. Some more than others. Maybe it is just a portion of what we consider the conscious.
Can we truly say for certain what exactly the entire key of the conscious is. Where is "it"???
Is it The "I" in all of us? Is it are egoic self, our conditioned self? Maybe a collective consciousness. A universal consciousness. But I never hear mention of a universal subconscious. And it seeming to be constructed in an obscure and philosophical manner it would seem to me that it would be more likely to play a larger role in any type of connected level of consciousness than that of the conscious.

Originally posted by Howetzer

Can we truly say for certain what exactly the entire key of the conscious is. Where is "it"???
Is it The "I" in all of us?

No, we can't. It's never been done. We don't even have the ability to define exactly what LIFE is, let alone consciousness. Two cells, side by side... same type of cell. One is alive, the other isn't. Why?

Going back to the computer model, there are those who believe that once a suitably powerful and fast computer is created, it will achieve consciousness. That is a belief, nothing more.

IMHO, this is the reason for and realm of the spiritual. I believe that the observer... the consciousness... inherently knows its nature - and that its nature is not locked to this physical realm.

Universal subconscious? A face of God, perhaps? Nature or the laws of nature?

Originally posted by wombing
unconsciousness, subconsciousness, consciousness, and "superconsciousness" are all a continium (operating simultaneously IMO).

What distinction do you make between unconscious and subconscious?

First... some basic philosophy which might help us in our thinking... and elucidate somewhat how we think and the errors that can occur if we fall into some very common misunderstandings.

Hundreds of years ago there was a debate between two schools of Philosophy -- the First School, the Platonists, insisted the Words were Real Things, that is, to think of a word and to use it and be able to visualize what the word described indicated that at some level the Word had actual substance, that the Word was itself Real and represented a Real Thing. We call this School the "Realists".

Then there was the Nominalist School. For them words were only names. Words only represented concepts which could be true, or possibly false. Words could be wound around complete fictions. Using words to create a visualization did not prove the reality of the thing visualized. Contemplating the idea of a Unicorn did not prove the existence on some plane or another of some actual Unicorns. Yet, that is what the Realists believed.

The Nominalists eventually won the war. Yes, on the Spiritual Level, subjective ideation tends to create or project corresponding Thought Forms, but all high spirituality warns of the ultimate unreality of such Projections.

Anyway, regarding the term Subconscious Mind. Well, if we fall into the Realist Error, then we would suppose that there is actually a Thing called the Subconscious Mind. But that is thinking that became obsolete almost a thousand years ago. Now, we, as all good Nominalists should see the term Subconscious Mind as simply a phrase attached to a conceptual model -- it is meant to describe a mechanism or dynamic. It is not a Thing but is only meant to be a description.

But what is it describing, and from what perspective?

I have found that Materialist's love to use the phrase Subconscious Mind because it tends to isolate all of the phenomena attributed to the Subconscious Mind to the individual involved. Other phrases could and have been used which express a more transcendent and collective way of looking at this huge depository of knowledge.

We can see how those who use the term Subconscious Mind can persist so long in dismissing knowledge that the individual himself had no physical way of learning. It is understood as a granted restriction that the Subconscious Mind can only store perceptual data. This is why the term lends itself to well to Materialists.

And yet so much anecdotal evidence leans toward the view that This Great Depository of Knowledge available to us extends beyond us and is better captured by the term Collective Consciousness.

Think of the subconscious as a stream of thought, our conscious selves only scoop out a few buckets of it and put it into language in our heads. The rest of it is there, but it is sublingual, and we can't be aware of it or express it to others until it is put into words.

I tend to think that the terming of "sub" conscious is actually a little misleading. I think that these background analyses and such are above our normal conscious stream of thought, and the simple fact that we do have to focus or put our attention on these "sub" processes points to the idea that we are "raising" our awareness to the point where that "sub" consious is now conscious. I also say that subconsious and unconscious are two separate ideas. Subconscious still denotes a process of thought. Unconscious denotes no thought process at all. There are some things that we do "uncounsciously", such as reactions to people swinging their fists at us (if we have any martial arts background). Those things have been practiced so much that any hint of that movement which should trigger the reaction does trigger it. There are also subconscious reactions, like thos of catching books and papers as they fall to the ground and such. We haven't been practicing those things, but some of us are still able to do them quite well, and sometimes, we don't even realize what we're doing until it's already happening.

Here is a very interesting article that Zen Vortex pointed out to me. It may not address the subconscious perspective head on, but in a round about way I think it has information affiliated with what we are discussing.
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/...6/pr060329.cfm

Thank you for the background foundation.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Anyway, regarding the term Subconscious Mind. Well, if we fall into the Realist Error, then we would suppose that there is actually a Thing called the Subconscious Mind. But that is thinking that became obsolete almost a thousand years ago. Now, we, as all good Nominalists should see the term Subconscious Mind as simply a phrase attached to a conceptual model -- it is meant to describe a mechanism or dynamic. It is not a Thing but is only meant to be a description.

This is something It seems that we all are talking around, yet have realized. If not, I am glad you have pointed this out!

"Raising our awareness", as Wolf Blade puts it. An interesting concept.
Much like when our minds view something as unreal or real. Can the subconscious and the conscious work in concert with each other through awareness? Bringing what seems to be two different "conceptual Models", together as one. And as you would have it...a collective consciousness? Or an inner self awareness. Liberation from dynamics?

I can't vote for anything either ..

I think of what is called the "subconscious" in this topic as the source of our thoughts, dreams, intuitions etc. To me this "thing" is like a higher source of knowledge. Every impulse that becomes concsious to us - that we recognize - comes from there. When we dream or meditate though, we are able to receive much more impulses from there through the transcendencial gap. When conscious, we recognize only a few of the impulses that get through the gap.
All daily influences and caused emotions need to be compensated in order to feel happy and fullfilled. For our conscious mind it is hard to differenciate between "good" and "bad" influences from the outside world. But by listening to the impulses giving from the "subconscious" we are able to handle situations, emotions, reaction etc. much better.
To get the full load of impulses, I believe, that listening and interpreting your dreams, also lucid dreaming as I read, will help to practically live a better life.
If one is not doing so, they of course won't die.. but their emotional breakouts might be much more extreme and influencable on following moods, feelings, emotions. They even might get sick more often.
When seeing the "bad" influences as the "good" ones, one will put stone's in their own way to happiness, fullfillment, emotional compensation, living the moment not forgetting the future. Because then they more and more tend away from the, for them, true impulses.
Through dreams the connection can be kept up to the upper level of thinking.

Howetzer, Could you please tell us how we should vote in this poll, It is very confusing.

I also think that the term subconscious is misleading. I think that it is more like a higher conscious. It takes care of everything that the conscious mind is too preoccupied to handle. I wish that the concious mind and the sub conscious mind could better communicate. Dreams are the only times when they really seem to meet. I want to try some meditation to try and establish a link, but I will probably be too lazy.

maybe the subconscious holds the secrets to life. maybe.

Originally posted by pj


Seriously... what makes a new driver so bloody dangerous? It is that he has to think, "Ok... I should start stopping here. Let's see... pick my foot off the accerator, put it on the brake... press... OOPS! Not that hard. Back off. Little harder. Damn. Ok... there... that's good. OH NO!!!"

An experienced driver handles all the motions subconsciously. The details of anything we develop into a skill falls out of the conscious level, leaving us to use our conscious processes for more important things.

First of all, let me thank you pj for giving me, a new driver, hope. I can relate to that.

Anyways...

Personally, I believe that the consciousness is when you are consciously working on something, like a math problem. The subconscious is sort of like the behind the scenes stuff that's happening.

EX : 3x+7=10
In solving this problem you work in steps:
1)Subtract 7 from 10
3x=3
2)Divide 3x and 3 by 3
x=1

When you preform this equation, you do it consciously, but your subconscious is really what's working it out. When a teacher says do this in your head, you're working on the outside of the problem consciously, but working on the inside of the problem subconsciously. And I do realize how little sense that makes, so if you need me to explain further just ask.

Also, the unconscious is when you get to your instincts. Like when you jump at a noise you weren't expecting, you didn't think about it consciously or subconsciously. It was an unconscious reaction.

That's what I believe anyways.

Originally posted by ledzeppelin
Howetzer, Could you please tell us how we should vote in this poll, It is very confusing.

I also think that the term subconscious is misleading. I think that it is more like a higher conscious. It takes care of everything that the conscious mind is too preoccupied to handle. I wish that the concious mind and the sub conscious mind could better communicate. Dreams are the only times when they really seem to meet. I want to try some meditation to try and establish a link, but I will probably be too lazy.

maybe the subconscious holds the secrets to life. maybe.

In your case you would vote --> [other.]
You then would go on to explain, as you did, about a "higher conscious."

Originally posted by pj
Seriously... what makes a new driver so bloody dangerous? It is that he has to think, "Ok... I should start stopping here. Let's see... pick my foot off the accerator, put it on the brake... press... OOPS! Not that hard. Back off. Little harder. Damn. Ok... there... that's good. OH NO!!!"

Don't you think that repetition plays a great role in this?
You do not have to think about it because it is repetitive. as an unconscious thought.
The subconscious I feel would provide more of an obscure view to the repetitive nature of waking tasks.
In this occasion it may perform a high level up presumption from underlying reason and surrounding circumstances and intuitively give you a 'Head up" on something that is about to happen.
People then presume it is for-telling the future when all it really was is a collaboration of many events put together on a subconscious level.