Thread: The ultimate utopia.

Interesting. What is matters here too, is something like an ultimate utopia even possible? If you were injected with heroin all the time, would you still be happy after a certain amount of time? Or would you just feel normal when high on heroin, and feel bad when you don't have it? I think that your standards would simply raise.

Then, the ultimate utopia might be enducing agony in someone for an X period of time, and then make them ultimately happy. So they know opposite ends of the spectrum, and can truely appreciate happiness. Though, is a world where torture and the like are nessecary to achieve ultimate happiness still the ultimate utopia?

Originally posted by Jalexxi
Interesting. What is matters here too, is something like an ultimate utopia even possible? If you were injected with heroin all the time, would you still be happy after a certain amount of time? Or would you just feel normal when high on heroin, and feel bad when you don't have it? I think that your standards would simply raise.

Then, the ultimate utopia might be enducing agony in someone for an X period of time, and then make them ultimately happy. So they know opposite ends of the spectrum, and can truely appreciate happiness. Though, is a world where torture and the like are nessecary to achieve ultimate happiness still the ultimate utopia?

Yeah very true. You can experience more happyness if you have seen sadness. That is why it is best to be born poor and sucky into this world and then become rich graduately, and have fun. =)

Happyness Is allso realtive. If you win the lottery you are happy. If you have won it (your parents) when you are 10, once you will be 50 being rich is ' normal ' and live without servants and planes would be sucky.

Happiness doesn't have much to do with our surroundings or current situation.

Studies on lottery winners and accident victim parapalegics have shown that a person's natural dispositions are pretty consistent throughout life.

I.e. If they were a happy, jovial person before the accident, about 6 months after the fact they are a happy, jovial person in a wheelchair. On the flipside, if a person was a miserable bastard before winning the lottery, about 6 months after winning they are now a rich miserable bastard.

Originally posted by bradybaker
Happiness doesn't have much to do with our surroundings or current situation.

Studies on lottery winners and accident victim parapalegics have shown that a person's natural dispositions are pretty consistent throughout life.

I.e. If they were a happy, jovial person before the accident, about 6 months after the fact they are a happy, jovial person in a wheelchair. On the flipside, if a person was a miserable bastard before winning the lottery, about 6 months after winning they are now a rich miserable bastard.

Yeah that's what I fear. Some people just SUCK <=/

Like there is this base-line of happyness-level you allways return to once events arn't 'new' anymore.

Still, that does not make people invulnerable to changes in mood. And heroin is a pretty powerful mood-changer.
Also, I bet that study did not show why those people became like that, only that they did. Do people still become miserable bastards after being high on heroin during their entire childhood?

Read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, Neruo. That's basically one of the ways Huxley creates a "utopian" society. Terrific read.

And happiness....

I'm content where ever and when ever, and in any situation. Life is utopian no? It's beautiful no? Inner-contentment and inner-happiness is the key. Happiness is purely subjective and created; whether or not one succumbs to external environments is their choice.

Originally posted by Neruo
robots constant cloning more humans, so more and more would exist to be 'happy'.

Bad idea, we should have LESS people in this world, keep in mind the planets carrying capacity. If there were less people, we might be able to reach a balance with the environment and achieve a much more sustainable utopia. I like your overall idea though.

Originally posted by will.i.am


Bad idea, we should have LESS people in this world, keep in mind the planets carrying capacity. If there were less people, we might be able to reach a balance with the environment and achieve a much more sustainable utopia. I like your overall idea though.

But more people = more happyness. However you could indeed sustain a higher percentage of happyness and for a longer time. All the robots effords could be even better just be spend on 1 single human and making that human as happy as possible.

However you could allso just kill all humans so they cannot be Sad anymore. Ever.


If you think of it, Utopia's suck

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'Brave new world"? Hey isn't that a song by Iron Maiden too? Anyhow if I would find that book in a libary sometime I will read it ^___^ If I ever get into I libary again. ^__^

I don’t think the number of happy people corresponds to how happy they may be. Sure some people like being around others, but some also like to be alone. Wouldn’t a drug induced feeling be independent of the people around you? If we get all our happiness from the drug, nothing else will matter because its effects are all we will know. So I guess if I took 100 people, doped them up, and placed all in a small room (shoulder to shoulder) and kept them alive (in whatever way); would that be your idea of a utopia? It wouldn’t matter really because I could give those 100 people enough drugs to keep them happy. That room is all they know, and they would be content with it. Versus 5 people in a room the same size. The number of people wouldn’t change how they feel. But that’s just my thought.

Originally posted by will.i.am
I don’t think the number of happy people corresponds to how happy they may be. Sure some people like being around others, but some also like to be alone. Wouldn’t a drug induced feeling be independent of the people around you? If we get all our happiness from the drug, nothing else will matter because its effects are all we will know. So I guess if I took 100 people, doped them up, and placed all in a small room (shoulder to shoulder) and kept them alive (in whatever way); would that be your idea of a utopia? It wouldn’t matter really because I could give those 100 people enough drugs to keep them happy. That room is all they know, and they would be content with it. Versus 5 people in a room the same size. The number of people wouldn’t change how they feel. But that’s just my thought.

Yeah. So why did you oppose cloning alot of people?

But the point is lad, does it matter or 100 people are happy or 100000000? Or does it only matter that there is no sadness? Isn't dead, the ultimate 'neutrality'? If everyone was dead there was no sadness.

Then again what does happyness or sadness even matter. It are just impulses of the brain so we make the 'right decisions' for survival. It are products of evolution. 10000000 years ago there were no humans. There was no (human) sadness/happyness (on earth). So what does it matter now? Why do human pain or happyness count more then pain and/or happyness with other animals?

get it. The point is: Notting matters.

Well, I guess I see your point and I'll respect that.

Originally posted by will.i.am
Well, I guess I see your point and I'll respect that.

Well it's not really 'My' point. I do care about my happyness, and that of others.

However when you look at the bigger picture I know it's crap and that my mind is just telling me to care

Respek <3

Originally posted by Neruo
The ultimate utopia would be a world taken care by robots constant cloning more humans, so more and more would exist to be 'happy'. Then inject heroin into them to make them happy. Or any kind of drug that makes humans happy. If the brain gets used to being happy, genetically modify it so it doesn't. So all humans can be happy all day long.

And there is no 'need for freedom' becouse no one would know any better then infinity happyness.

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In theory, it's possible. However the question would remain or people would still be people if they lacked the ability to feel sad or atleast 'less happy'.

My point is: What common happyness matter.

Well, one need not go to any extreme for the Perfect Utopia. Remember, all of the Philosophers tell us that True Happiness is not found in any extreme, but rather in Moderation. Going to any extreme would therefore be an invitation to disaster of which we have all been well warned by all the Wisdom of the Ages.

Besides, we already know the formula for Utopia. Socialogists have done a study and found that people who make approximately the value of $35,000 American Dollars (year 2000 value) are virtually assured of being politically content. No riots, no protests, no terrorism from people who pull down a mid-level 5 Figure income.

So, drugs is not the answer, but simply an assured system of distribution of wealth.

Originally posted by Leo Volont


Well, one need not go to any extreme for the Perfect Utopia. Remember, all of the Philosophers tell us that True Happiness is not found in any extreme, but rather in Moderation. Going to any extreme would therefore be an invitation to disaster of which we have all been well warned by all the Wisdom of the Ages.

Besides, we already know the formula for Utopia. Socialogists have done a study and found that people who make approximately the value of $35,000 American Dollars (year 2000 value) are virtually assured of being politically content. No riots, no protests, no terrorism from people who pull down a mid-level 5 Figure income.

So, drugs is not the answer, but simply an assured system of distribution of wealth.

You don't get it Leo.

Happyness are just stimulations of certain point in the brain. Chemicals (like drugs) can allso do this. So it would be possible to 'froce feed' people happyness, and they really would be happy.

And lol do you really think that everyone that has 35.000$ income a year is happy? There are way to many factors. Family, genetics, environment, education just way to much. Maybe statistically it is a bit better. But not like ever mid level 5 Figure income family is 'the perfect family'.

Originally posted by Neruo
You don't get it Leo.

Beware what you are saying.

Happyness are just stimulations of certain point in the brain. Chemicals (like drugs) can allso do this. So it would be possible to 'froce feed' people happyness, and they really would be happy.[/b]

So, we make a robot society. They take out our brains, put them in tanks, and continually stimulate the 'happy'-center of the brain. They clone the brains to create more people that are happy. In the end, there are nearly a trillion brains on Earth, all stuck in small bio-vats, kept alive artificially and constantly being 'happy-stimulated'. Would you like that world?

What is missing from that vision is progress and accomplishment. The world might be happy, but is it good? Does being happy really still exist without something to be happy about?

Originally posted by Jalexxi+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jalexxi)</div>

Beware what you are saying. [/b]

LOL WHO HAS SAND IS HIS VAGINA?

Leo didn't get what I meant, I don't blame him, wtf are you btiching about.

<!--QuoteBegin-Jalexxi


So, we make a robot society. They take out our brains, put them in tanks, and continually stimulate the 'happy'-center of the brain. They clone the brains to create more people that are happy. In the end, there are nearly a trillion brains on Earth, all stuck in small bio-vats, kept alive artificially and constantly being 'happy-stimulated'. Would you like that world?

What is missing from that vision is progress and accomplishment. The world might be happy, but is it good? Does being happy really still exist without something to be happy about?

That's the question. The main point of philosphy in my oppinion is to allways question. In theory this utopia would grand infinite happyness. However indeed happyness seems to be irrelivent when there is nothing other but it. But how much does happyness matters in this world? And why does It matter here? Does it matter?

I am sure I will never find out Nor will anyone. But I think that questioning and wondering, thinking, is the thing what humans are all about.

That and tabletennis.

Originally posted by Neruo
That's the question. The main point of philosphy in my oppinion is to allways question. In theory this utopia would grand infinite happyness. However indeed happyness seems to be irrelivent when there is nothing other but it. But how much does happyness matters in this world? And why does It matter here? Does it matter?

Well, I personally think we have no goal in this world, no purpose. I also think that is our greatest gift; we get to choose what to do with our lives, what to think of as valuable, and to choose what we enjoy. You could even say that is our purpose.
Activities we enjoy make us happy. As we choose what we enjoy, and choosing this being our purpose, one could argue becoming happy is the meaning of life.

[quote]

Well, I personally think we have no goal in this world, no purpose. I also think that is our greatest gift; we get to choose what to do with our lives, what to think of as valuable, and to choose what we enjoy. You could even say that is our purpose.
Activities we enjoy make us happy. As we choose what we enjoy, and choosing this being our purpose, one could argue becoming happy is the meaning of life.

Yeah I kind of have the same oppinion. There is no goal in life. However every person has a goal, maybe given by evolution and such, and a highly subjective goal, but that doesn't matter. Every person wants to be happy, so I guess you could call that the 'meaning of life'.

I also recommend Brave New World by Aldous Huxley; it adresses some very interesting philosophical issues.

not only would this be a really bad idea, i mean theoretically it's a wonderful idea, who doesnt want peace and happyness forever on earth??? but about the whole robots controling everything deal, do you mean they would do all of our jobs for us as well, as in food service, machining, delivery, farming, medical, teaching, etc., so we don't have to work??? so we can just do what we want with our lives, have more time for self discovery, blah blah??? anyways who would program these robots, and who would be making sure they are doing everything correctly and not malfunctioning??? that would interfere with the whole theory or happyness, unless you really enjoyed working on robots... and would everyone have to work on these robots or only certain people? because if it's only certain people those certain people probably wouldnt be happy knowing someone else is off doing things for their own greater good...

idk, thats just a thought.. could be wrong?

Originally posted by trekflatland44
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idk, thats just a thought.. could be wrong?

Not wrong. There is no 'wrong' in 'theory' or in ' thought'. But ofcouse I was not being serious in a way that I would expect this world to every be created. No one would approve ofcourse becouse it might look sucky, but in theory it is great.

I guess it is possible to make really fail-proof robots. But that made me think! :

Robots are in most cases made as good as they can be made. Future robots will be even better. But can there be robot evolution? Like a group of robots on a planet. If they were really good robots and could build copies of themselves, what would happen? Maybe if a chip would get damaged so one little thingy would be different. Or like if one little construction error would occur. Or maybe the robots would improve their ' children' , for a better chance on the though planet.

That would be robot evolution. I guess it would be possible

Ok maybe it would have to be a planet with alot of nice iron on the surface. And it would take a few million years.

But I think it is possible

Originally posted by Neruo
But can there be robot evolution? Like a group of robots on a planet. If they were really good robots and could build copies of themselves, what would happen? Maybe if a chip would get damaged so one little thingy would be different. Or like if one little construction error would occur. Or maybe the robots would improve their ' children' , for a better chance on the though planet.

That would be robot evolution. I guess it would be possible

Trial and error would lead to evolution. Some modifications would improve the robot, those would be kept for future generations, some would have unexpected drawbacks, those would be abandoned.

Evolution is basically biology's version of trial and error.

what would be the point of this continuous happiness (yes it would be great but what would be the point in creating people just so they can have happiness, surely there is more to life than this?)
Anyway, this relates to the matrix (sorry! ) in a way. why does neo bother to free people from the matrix when it's not that bad in the first place?- idiot. And what's so bad about this life- the rubbish parts in life make us enjoy the good parts more

Originally posted by dudesuperior
what would be the point of this continuous happiness (yes it would be great but what would be the point in creating people just so they can have happiness, surely there is more to life than this?)
Anyway, this relates to the matrix (sorry! ) in a way. why does neo bother to free people from the matrix when it's not that bad in the first place?- idiot. And what's so bad about this life- the rubbish parts in life make us enjoy the good parts more

Yeah I agree with you. Neo's has to lie the fuck down and bring all those people into a world that's even more shitty then the fake world they live in.