Thread: The Universe, Finite or Infinite?

I can't concieve anything more than infinite.... I mean, yeah, there might be more than one universe, but that is still a universe. Anyway, it's too crazy to think something so massive just ends.

There can be something besides infinite. In an other demension or something.

Anyhow I think everyone is going to vote 'infinite', even religious people I think. Becouse the bible only said the world was the center of the universe or something, not how big it was.

Infinite is only logic, behind barriers there would allways have to be something.

An option is that it's formed like a ball in the 4th demension. Like imagen the universe in 2d... then put that 2d on a ball... and ta-da you can allways keep going on the ball.

You could say 'what happens if you would not follow the line of the ball?' . But it's a 4th demension-thingy, not actually a [i]real[/i/ ball, there is nothing But the ball.

Anyways. Like astroids or whats the game called yeah.

This has been a subject ive thought about for years , and im not sure still really .

Heres my thought process when thinking about the two .

Finite-

We all can agree that the universe is expanding , so assuming that the universe has finite boundaries , what happends when all the mass in the universe reaches the edge ? Is it a defined edge ? And if so what is it made of ? Does time and space just simply cease to exist past a certain point ? And what if mass reaches that boundary where time and space cease to exist ? Does that mass then also cease to exist ? That would violate the laws of Conservation of Energy . Its nonsensical just thinking about it , and thats why i cant really accept the finite universe . Maybe its possible for there to just be a boundary where time and space are no more but the consequences of reaching that boundary are thought provoking . I cant really think of any more to say about this one except that im no closer to an answer .

Infinite-

Okay , so lets say there is an infinite universe . As someone mentioned before , if it is then thats all there is , there cant be other infinite universes outside , cos there is no "outside" . Again lets use the expanding universe to analyse infinity . Can space truly travel on forever ? Or does it "loop back" on itself ? I honestly cannot fathom infinity , its just impossible to imagine , and so thats what make me lean toward infinity due to space looping back on itself . That way there are no boundaries , and also , it could support a theory of the cyclic universe and many big bangs ie. when all the mass has looped back on itself it will be travelling on a collision course back to the "centre" of the universe where the big bang originated , and would allow for a singularity of all the mass in the universe and so another big bang is born . There are still questions about an infinite universe which i cant quite think of ATM so ill just leave this up to discussion .

I used to think that the space was infinite, but it was mainly because that's what all of the textbooks and teachers said, but then i really thought about it. I really cannot see how it could be infinite. Anybody could just say that space is infinite, but think about what you are saying, it NEVER ends. If space never ends than there would be an infinite number of other universes and galaxies and there would be multiple, hell even an infinite number of planets exactly like ours because of an infinite amount of chances to replicate our planet. Just think about how impossible it is. If nothing we have found so far is infinite but space, i find it hard to believe. The number of grains of sand on all of the beaches of the world is a finite number. But it would be kinda cool if we found out space was just like the smallest particle of something in another dimension or something

Originally posted by Darkmatic
This has been a subject ive thought about for years , and im not sure still really . *

Heres my thought process when thinking about the two .

Finite- *

We all can agree that the universe is expanding , so assuming that the universe has finite boundaries , what happends when all the mass in the universe reaches the edge ?

The 'edge' is also expanding.

When people talk of the expanding universe, they don't just mean the stuff inside of it, they mean space itself is expanding as well.

Logically speaking the universe has to be finite, nothing can move faster than light, therefore the universe has the radius of how far light can travel in 13.7 billion years (13.7 billion light years).

Well, if we use that definition. We have to remember that we're talking only about our known universe, there might be other universes out there.

I think the more appropriate question is whether "space" is infinite. However, the concept of infinity (or close enough) does exist in the real world. For example, a singularity is a point of infinite density.

Originally posted by Darkmatic+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darkmatic)</div>

We all can agree that the universe is expanding , so assuming that the universe has finite boundaries , what happends when all the mass in the universe reaches the edge ? Is it a defined edge ? And if so what is it made of ? Does time and space just simply cease to exist past a certain point ? And what if mass reaches that boundary where time and space cease to exist ? Does that mass then also cease to exist ? That would violate the laws of Conservation of Energy . Its nonsensical just thinking about it , and thats why i cant really accept the finite universe . Maybe its possible for there to just be a boundary where time and space are no more but the consequences of reaching that boundary are thought provoking . I cant really think of any more to say about this one except that im no closer to an answer .[/b]

I believe that there are no edges to the universe. The universe is expanding from all points, so it is therefore impossible find a single 'edge' to the universe.
This also means that nothing can reach an edge. If an object was going in the same direction long enough, it would eventually reach the same destination from which it left off (providing it was going faster than the universe was expanding, which is impossible)

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker
Logically speaking the universe has to be finite, nothing can move faster than light, therefore the universe has the radius of how far light can travel in 13.7 billion years (13.7 billion light years). *

Space itself can and is expanding faster than the speed of light, so the universe is probably billions (perhaps trillions etc.) of times larger than 13.7 light years in radius.

Originally posted by dudesuperior
Space itself can and is expanding faster than the speed of light, so the universe is probably billions (perhaps trillions etc.) of times larger than 13.7 light years in radius.

Not quite true. The matter contained within the expanding space can appear to be travelling faster than light (ie. during cosmic inflation).

Originally posted by resonate
I used to think that the space was infinite, but it was mainly because that's what all of the textbooks and teachers said, but then i really thought about it. I really cannot see how it could be infinite. Anybody could just say that space is infinite, but think about what you are saying, it NEVER ends. If space never ends than there would be an infinite number of other universes and galaxies and there would be multiple, hell even an infinite number of planets exactly like ours because of an infinite amount of chances to replicate our planet. Just think about how impossible it is. If nothing we have found so far is infinite but space, i find it hard to believe. The number of grains of sand on all of the beaches of the world is a finite number. But it would be kinda cool if we found out space was just like the smallest particle of something in another dimension or something

What makes it infinite is not the count of things in it, its the actual existance of it, sure there are finite number of sand grains in the world, but its existent being infinite trapped in every second, moment that travels thru this infinitness, Imagine that every second of your life is infinite, it will always exist, we just don't see, know a way of realizing this, but it applys the same for finitness, meaning, you can not explain that all existence is finite either: "that time dies(ends)". So we are back on the same spot .

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>

Logically speaking the universe has to be finite, nothing can move faster than light, therefore the universe has the radius of how far light can travel in 13.7 billion years (13.7 billion light years).[/b]

This is true, but it doesn't actually defines it logically as finite, there are various probabilities towards this, the big ban theory is also alocated to the cosmic macrowave background to define this.

But what ends up defining if the universe if infinite or finite its the actual expansion rate.

<!--QuoteBegin-dudesuperior
I believe that there are no edges to the universe. The universe is expanding from all points, so it is therefore impossible find a single 'edge' to the universe. *
This also means that nothing can reach an edge. If an object was going in the same direction long enough, it would eventually reach the same destination from which it left off (providing it was going faster than the universe was expanding, which is impossible)

The universe is expanding in all directions, but if it is finite, the edges are at the "end" point.

It would be imposible to reach the edge for the reason that you can not travel faster than it is expanding, so even if you could match its speed, you are just never going to reach it. In a finite universe you are able to reach a same point you reached before, but in a infinite universe you can't, simply because each point of moment is infinite so it never is equal, meaning, you'd have to be able to travel in time to reach the same point. So if in an infinite universe you'd take your means of transport, alowing the time and space, and you go around on a trip in the universe, you could never repeat a point, go back to it, in a finite universe, this is would be achivable, but I don't think a way of doing this has been discovered.

Originally posted by Sortilgio
The universe is expanding in all directions, but if it is finite, the edges are at the "end" point.

There may be no 'end point' to the universe at all. The universe is entierly self contained, meaning that there are no 'edges'.

Think of the game atseroids(sorry if iv'e mentioned this in a previous topic) . You are an arrow that can move around on the screen, but you can also go offf screen and appear on the other side. This means that there are no edges, or at least no edges that you can see.
I hope this explains my point, as i was finding it difficult toexplain in words

As you can see by this exellent diagram, there may be no perceveable edges to the universe, and it may just keep repeating over and over. (the white lines are to show the screen of the game asteroids, and to show how it keeps reapeating. This may be the same case with the entire universe).

Originally posted by bradybaker
Not quite true. The matter contained within the expanding space can appear to be travelling faster than light (ie. during cosmic inflation).

Spacetime itself can expand faster than the speed of light (I was not talking about the matter inside the universe).

Originally posted by Neruo
Becouse the bible only said the world was the center of the universe or something, not how big it was.

For the universe to even have a centre it must logically be of finite space.

I go for an infinte universe. That doesn't mean that matter keeps going, but that space does. The funny thing is it's too hard to imagine space just coming to an end point, and it's also impossible to comprehend infinity. Brain.......... overload.............. can't................ think.

how do we exactly define the universe

if we mean all the stars and planets than of coruse its finate

however if we mean EVERYTHING or reality itself then yes it would be infinate.

Originally posted by dudesuperior+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dudesuperior)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Sortilegio

The universe is expanding in all directions, but if it is finite, the edges are at the "end" point.

There may be no 'end point' to the universe at all. The universe is entierly self contained, meaning that there are no 'edges'.

Think of the game atseroids(sorry if iv'e mentioned this in a previous topic) . You are an arrow that can move around on the screen, but you can also go offf screen and appear on the other side. This means that there are no edges, or at least no edges that you can see.
I hope this explains my point, as i was finding it difficult toexplain in words

As you can see by this exellent diagram, there may be no perceveable edges to the universe, and it may just keep repeating over and over. (the white lines are to show the screen of the game asteroids, and to show how it keeps reapeating. This may be the same case with the entire universe).
[/b]

If the universe is infinite you would never ever reach an end or edge or go to a point that turns you back to a begining point like you are displaying; and if the universe is finite, then It could either be like that, but it'd be ilogical since you would have to actually get out of it, unless you are only getting out of it back to it, and it being posible to travel thru this points, or it is just something else outside.

*shrugs* if the universe really exists in space-time, this is also asking whether the universe is infinite-eternal, or finite-temporal.

i lean towards both being true at the same time. can't explain my opinion better than that.

there is only the eternal, ever-changing now, and its associated physical manifestation.

energy and matter constantly interplay. if the conservation of energy is true, how can energy ever cease to be, in some form?

The universe is both finite and infinite. There are boundaries to a universe that has a beginning and is expanding, but you'll never reach them. The universe isn't "inside" of something, as if it were a box; it's everything. I'll let alone the idea of multiple universes until more is known; in any case, they'd just be other aspects to what I'm calling the Universe, by which I mean All That Is.

The universe is also eternally existent, and has been for all time from about 15 or so billion years ago. If there is no "before time" and time began at the Big Bang, then all the time since then is just that, it's all time ... that is, eternity or "forever."

alright first off i am extremely lazy, i didnt read all the threads. but i know that there is a theory that there is an end to the universe after it has expanded to its farthest stretch... i cant remember how far we are into it. but then it will eventually collapse as slowly as it began. pretty cool. its sorta like stretching a rubber band out until it cant go until it will break and then you release it... well actually thats a horrible analogy but whatev.

FluBB

Originally posted by FluBB
alright first off i am extremely lazy, i didnt read all the threads. but i know that there is a theory that there is an end to the universe after it has expanded to its farthest stretch... i cant remember how far we are into it. but then it will eventually collapse as slowly as it began. pretty cool. its sorta like stretching a rubber band out until it cant go until it will break and then you release it... well actually thats a horrible analogy but whatev.
FluBB

Actually, it now looks as if there will be no Big Crunch - just a continued expansion and eventual thermodynamic heat death.

Originally posted by Peregrinus

Actually, it now looks as if there will be no Big Crunch - just a continued expansion and eventual thermodynamic heat death.

Precisely, this cooling down is inevitable. The Sun may do us in first though. That continual expansion will so ruin our waistlines.

Originally posted by Genjyo

Precisely, this cooling down is inevitable. The Sun may do us in first though. That continual expansion will so ruin our waistlines.

How do you mean it will ruin our waist lines , do you mean that as the matter expands so will space , and thus our waist lines will be wider then than now ? (seriously ).

Obviously by the time the Sun expands we'd be extinct, unless we've found new real estate elsewhere. The conservation of energy is actually not absolute. Hawking radiation (separated quantum pairs) is proof that this law can be broken.

Originally posted by dudesuperior


There may be no 'end point' to the universe at all. The universe is entierly self contained, meaning that there are no 'edges'.

Think of the game atseroids(sorry if iv'e mentioned this in a previous topic) . You are an arrow that can move around on the screen, but you can also go offf screen and appear on the other side. This means that there are no edges, or at least no edges that you can see.
I hope this explains my point, as i was finding it difficult toexplain in words

As you can see by this exellent diagram, there may be no perceveable edges to the universe, and it may just keep repeating over and over. (the white lines are to show the screen of the game asteroids, and to show how it keeps reapeating. This may be the same case with the entire universe).

This is pretty much what i think too. Heres how i think that it is possible:

I belive that the universe could be "closed" by the existence of a "hidden" fourth dimension.
Imagine a world that has only 2 dimensions. The humans in this world can move forwards, backwards, left and right, but not up and down.
Their universe is not just a flat plate as you could think at first, it a ball in 3 dimensions. Just like our planet, exept that thier physics does not allow them to look or move upward and away from it. If they start flying in any way, witout chanching the dirrection at any time, they will return to the exact same spot were they started some time, just as if we flew around the earth.
Now imagine that our 3 dimensional world, in the exact same way is folded like a 4 dimensional ball, but because our world is only 3 dimensions we are not allowed by our physics to move up and away from this ball, but if we started flying we would get back to the same spot again some day, because we would have been moving all around the 4 dimensional ball.

I really hope that this gives sense even thou my english is not that good.

Originally posted by Darkmatic


How do you mean it will ruin our waist lines , do you mean that as the matter expands so will space , and thus our waist lines will be wider then than now ? (seriously * ).

Hi Darkmatic, I'm really making light of the circumstances, but all the matter would be too far apart from each other to survive.

Finite
Infinite
Religious Belive (Especify)
None (I think there for I exist)

I believe after much thought that it should be stated:
Expansion implosion, explosion. It will all change next week anyway.
We are just getting a glimpse of quantum physics and with that could change many of the existing theories. that is, until another new thing is discovered.
That is what is infinite. Our delusion that we have the answers.

Originally posted by Genjyo

Hi Darkmatic, I'm really making light of the circumstances, but all the matter would be too far apart from each other to survive.

Ahh , but to the person in the streched space it would seem to them that their waist is as thin as its always be , but the observer outside the streched space would see someone with a mammoth waistline worthy of the title of 'the biggest loser' .