Thread: The Disengaged Dream Self

sounds like your developing multiple personalities, as for the 30 percent of our brains that we use and the illusion that we have choice/control over our decscions is just that an illusion, i feel more and more controled by my uncious mind everyday i wake, i always find myself doing things that i dont want to do for instance sitting on this shitty computer right now chatting on a forum when i could be out running or meditating, you could say im plugged into the matrix (net) but as for what you stated about your dreambody merging within your real body sounds to me like....here we go again (sick of mensioning this) the teaching of don duan/carlos castenada books, not just the art of dreaming read by most lders i mean the whole shazam.

Originally posted by infinity369
sounds like your developing multiple personalities, as for the 30 percent of our brains that we use and the illusion that we have choice/control over our decscions is just that an illusion, i feel more and more controled by my uncious mind everyday i wake, i always find myself doing things that i dont want to do for instance sitting on this shitty computer right now chatting on a forum when i could be out running or meditating, you could say im plugged into the matrix (net) but as for what you stated about your dreambody merging within your real body sounds to me like....here we go again (sick of mensioning this) the teaching of don duan/carlos castenada books, not just the art of dreaming read by most lders i mean the whole shazam.

Oh, yes, I must apologize if I reminded you or anybody of any of that fiction which Carlos Castenada imposed upon us in the guise and pretense of being The Truth. In the first few books of the series, he was studious enough to find content that was either true or at least plausible, and so the books were indeed popular for their moment. but as the succeeding books exaggerated into a retarded campiness, it certainly made the more discriminating readers wince and gag and shudder in revulsion, that we had ever appreciated such a bottom dweller of an author.

However, how long must we let that imposition upon us poison the well? Should a woman who is violently raped never again expose herself even to true love? If Costenada said anything that was true, should that also be thrown out with all of his far-fetched crap? My God, can't we just forget how badly we were screwed, and go back to the original sources. many silly books steal some pretty good ideas, from some fairly respectable original sources, and we should learn how to discriminate between what is silly and what is not.

Ofcourse, your argument may be that I am being as silly as Costenada ever was. Well, I can rejoin that I write from my actual experience. Being real, it cannot be entirely silly. What I am NOT doing is pounding away on a typewriter because I received a half-million dollar advance from the publisher six months ago and now they are threatening to sue and so I am reduced to filling in 300 pages with whatever comes off the top of my head.

So I apologize for any uncomfortable associations my writings may bring, but they source out of genuine subjective experiences, NOT IMAGINATION, and so I don't deserve the contempt you should be careful to target only to those others.

Originally posted by Leo Volont


Oh, yes, I must apologize if I reminded you or anybody of any of that fiction which Carlos Castenada imposed upon us in the guise and pretense of being The Truth. *In the first few books of the series, he was studious enough to find content that was either true or at least plausible, and so the books were indeed popular for their moment. *but as the succeeding books exaggerated into a retarded campiness, i

Leo, interesting. This is not the first time I have heard you voice such a strong opinion of Castaneda's work, but stop for a moment and consider this.

Doesn't what you are now talking about sound like "The Double" concept? The case in which the dreamer dreams the double and the double dreams the dreamer? Two aspects of the persons conciousness, one in the dream world, one in the waking world suddenly becoming integrated and able to change realms?

Just a thought.

A very thoughtful and thought-provoking essay, Leo. I have very much enjoyed reading your thoughts on lucid dreaming. Please keep them coming.

Leo Volont is not talking rubbish here. Or just a theory of complete fiction. There is many ancient cultures that used lucid dreaming as a form of training. Before the the accult knowledge, I guess I'll call it that...was lost, people could do many things. That is part of the reason why it was stopped and hidden by those who feared it, and now it is lost. There is also other ancient texts I can't remember exackly which ones I would have to find them. That describe procedures to self realize through LDing. From what I understand one is to first master being lucid. Then deal with fears, and as control over the dream world is fully mastered. Then the dreamer turns his/her attention towards the self, and in doing so realizes the true nature of 'self' in the dream. That self is merely another dream character, or just another part of the dream that is dreamt up. From that point meditation in the lucid dreaming state will lead to a deep connection and understanding with all parts of dream content and a connection with the subconsious is made. One can then turn his/her attention to the real world and realize the same thing, Seeing the connection between the 2 worlds and the true nature of self. All is merged. Truth is seen clearly and with this comes the ability to do these things in reality.

Remember what was said in the matrix. (Someone did their homework)
"Do not try to bend the spoon, that is impossible. Only try to remember the truth. There is no spoon. Then it is not the spoon that moves only yourself"

Originally posted by calmseas
A very thoughtful and thought-provoking essay, Leo. *I have very much enjoyed reading your thoughts on lucid dreaming. *Please keep them coming.

^_^

ps calmseas...I love your avatar

Yes interesting rea Leo.

Originally posted by Seeker


Leo, interesting. *This is not the first time I have heard you voice such a strong opinion of Castaneda's work, but stop for a moment and consider this.

Doesn't what you are now talking about sound like \"The Double\" concept? *The case in which the dreamer dreams the double and the double dreams the dreamer? *Two aspects of the persons conciousness, one in the dream world, one in the waking world suddenly becoming integrated and able to change realms?

Just a thought.

Dear Seeker,

We need to examine our Ethics in view of other Ethical Decisions we have made as a Culture. Both the Nazis and the Fascist Japanese had done amazingly useful research in brain anatomy and the pathologies of hypothermia, but upon interred inmates and Prisoners of War, of course, without their consent. After the War the World was met with the Moral Dilema of whether to use such useful Research, or throw it all away as tainted. Of course, we all now know that it was thrown away. Civilization would make no advancements from the suffering of those who endured unspeakable atrocities.

And now we are discussing the works of a man who presented himself to the World as a bonafide Anthropologist from a reputable University in California. Using his credentials he began publishing books which he purported were true.

The popularity of these books brought out a veritable herd of graduate students who stretched far and wide across the same Sonoran Desert which our Primary Anthropologist claimed to have studied and documented.

Nothing fit. The Students were aghast at a fraud perpetrated by one of their Masters, a Professor, a Doctor, ... now a Fake and a Fraud. A conman.

Having read the books in innocence, I can absolve myself of any guilt by association, as long as I consider myself one of the victimes. But I will never again discuss these works in their detail, because, in a very real way, it would be equivalent to participating in his Fraud.

Indeed, I often had a lot to say, and I often beg to be believed simply on my Word that what I describe are Subjective Realities -- that my Dreams, Visions, and Meditations actually occurred, and that I did not simply contrive these scenarios as asesthetic triumphs of Art where I have deliberately aimed at engineering a Seductive Appeal to the Spiritual Tastes of the Masses. I cannot even be suspected of manipulating the Truth, not to mention presenting absolute inventions of the imagination. If I behave as though I condone Carlos Castenada, then how could I ever ask anybody to believe what I have to say.

He poisoned his own well and so I won't drink from it, and neither shoul anybody else. If it had been presented as fiction, it would have been fine, but he tainted the Universities with his imposture. Indeed, I've always wondered that the other Professors did not beat the crap out of him and leave him for dead in some dumpster.

nobody said he was talking rubbish infact if anythink he said himself he was talking rubbish by contradicting himself and mensioning something he's been partaking in/experimenting with the things that carlos castenada also did and then turns round and says all his work was total fiction.

neways enough about that, and yes i do also enjoy leo's posts always long and somethink to contemplate so on the good side thx leo

lol and now ive just made a baboon of myself by posting that when my browser didnt show leo's reply bah

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
Leo Volont is not talking rubbish here. Or just a theory of complete fiction. There is many ancient cultures that used lucid dreaming as a form of training. Before the the accult knowledge, I guess I'll call it that...was lost, people could do many things. That is part of the reason why it was stopped and hidden by those who feared it, and now it is lost. There is also other ancient texts I can't remember exackly which ones I would have to find them. That describe procedures to self realize through LDing. From what I understand one is to first master being lucid. Then deal with fears, and as control over the dream world is fully mastered. Then the dreamer turns his/her attention towards the self, and in doing so realizes the true nature of 'self' in the dream. That self is merely another dream character, or just another part of the dream that is dreamt up. From that point meditation in the lucid dreaming state will lead to a deep connection and understanding with all parts of dream content and a connection with the subconsious is made. One can then turn his/her attention to the real world and realize the same thing, Seeing the connection between the 2 worlds and the true nature of self. All is merged. Truth is seen clearly and with this comes the ability to do these things in reality. *

Remember what was said in the matrix. (Someone did their homework)
\"Do not try to bend the spoon, that is impossible. Only try to remember the truth. There is no spoon. Then it is not the spoon that moves only yourself\"

NirvanaStarseed brings up a point which posed a problem for me during the presentation of my essay which I wouldn't have addressed unless somebody was astute enough to bring it up, which NirvanaSS did. You see, my essay has the underlying assumption that the Waking Life should take priority over the Dreaming Reality... but should it?

Let's say a man is a telemarketer -- that he makes his living out of interrupting people at home to sell them things that they don't need or they would have gone out to buy them without any help from a telemarketer. Indeed, there is no way that it can be lost upon telemarketers that they are not universally appreciated, because the greater percent of their calls end in a refusal to be bothered by them... often angry refusals. It is a dirty job which does not even have the saving grace of being necessary -- like being a lawyer only that it pays crap. Well, suppose one of these telemarketers has dreams of going to school and taking up an honest and productive profession. What happens to my premise there?

What NirvanaSS points out is that the overall objective is to integrate both Selves -- the Waking Self and the Dream Self, NOT into some winner take all competition but that the Waking Self and the Dream Self should be subsumed into One All-Consuming Higher Self.

But I would not have mentioned it unless somebody suggested the notion. You see, there is a problem with presenting to much of the Way -- to show too much of the Map. The Buddha only discourages people by talking of the Journey of a Thousand Miles. He should rather point down the road and tell his clients to go until they see the first Road Sign, and that will tell them where to go next. When asked "How Far, or How Long" The Wise Buddha should say "Just down the Road, but pack a lunch". Don't make it sound to easy, but don't make it seem impossible. Will people be discouraged when the goal does not appear after way further than they ever expected they would need to travel. Sure! But the good people had already gained the strength to continue from having come as far as it took to discourage them, and they will have both the strength and even the now instructed and intimidated determination to continue on.

Originally posted by infinity369
nobody said he was talking rubbish infact if anythink he said himself he was talking rubbish by contradicting himself and mensioning something he's been partaking in/experimenting with the things that carlos castenada also did and then turns round and says all his work was total fiction.

neways enough about that, and yes i do also enjoy leo's posts always long and somethink to contemplate so on the good side thx leo *

Yes, well Thank you.

What upset me most about your initial post was your distance from me... speaking of me in the 3rd person... it seemed so dismissive.

But it was a good point and it gave me a wonderful opportunity to go into my Carlos Castanada Rant and Rave. Indeed, you found one of my buttons and gave it a good hard push, and no matter how spun up I may sound, I am always grateful for the excitement it provides.

My dear Leo!

Yes, I will award you a point in this debate, but just one point. Carlos Castaneda is a questionable source.

Personally though, I believe it is wrong to dismiss everything that someone writes because you feel his later works are flawed and fictional. I am sure you disagree with and take great offence at some of the teachings of Jesus Christ and his apostles as well, but do you automatically discard everything they taught?

I am sorry, my world is not black and white, but instead is a rainbow of many colors, textures, and concepts. At one time, I was quite the fundamentalist Christian, the world was black and white for me. The Bible was the ultimate truth and everything else was either evil or at best a distraction. I am quite proud to say that I grew up and no longer feel this way. There are passages of the bible that I question, there are teachings from other faiths that I now embrace. One thing I have learned over the years is that there is always something of value to be found in everything. Perhaps a truth you did not know, or perhaps an untruth that you never recognized before.

Have you ever read Castaneda's "The Art of Dreaming"?

If not, I invite you to find a copy in the used book store. I say used book store so that his estate will not receive any royalties from the purchase and thereby damage your sensibilities.

I have found the techniques and exercises outlined in that book to be quite accurate and helpful. Granted, toward the end of the book, it seems to go somewhat astray and venture once more into the metaphysical realms.

Thank you for taking the time to read and consider my post.

Originally posted by Seeker
My dear Leo! * *

Yes, I will award you a point in this debate, but just one point. *Carlos Castaneda is a questionable source.

My actual point was that Casteneda was an unethical source, from his very first book to his last. He should be boycotted on ethical grounds.

And yes, certain books of the Bible should similarly be banned on ethical grounds. Paul was a murderer and so we have a Christian Doctrine that has made a Supreme Virtue out of Murder -- I honestly can't see how I am the only person alive to see that as Anti-Christical. Maybe I am simply smarter than I give myself credit for, or everyone else much stupider.

But back to Castaneda -- yes he stole from some good sources, but if he was able to find such things to steal, then it should not be difficult for another author to backtrack and find these same materials and write us a book that we could honestly read and discuss. But until then, we should not let our moral standards down. You are frankly dealing with the devil when you must take your knowledge from liars and cheats. Your unsullied Virtue must be worth more than that, no?

Ah Leo!

Virtue! Something I pride myself on. I for one am a Christian, not one of those Christians that blindly follow doctrine, but instead a Christian that believes in critical thinking and is constantly examining his faith.

True virtue in my humble opinion consists not in walking away from something because it is questionable or evil, but instead in investigating that thing, gathering what is good and true from that thing, and then discarding that which is evil and walking away.

Again, I think we agree though that there are some truths to be gleaned from his writings, even if he plagerized them from other sources. The virtue comes in not blindly believing everything, but in critically examineing everything and taking away that which is true.

Thank you Leo for this interesting and refreshing exchange! I have enjoyed it

Originally posted by Seeker
Ah Leo!

Virtue! Something I pride myself on. I for one am a Christian, not one of those Christians that blindly follow doctrine, but instead a Christian that believes in critical thinking and is constantly examining his faith.

True virtue in my humble opinion consists not in walking away from something because it is questionable or evil, but instead in investigating that thing, gathering what is good and true from that thing, and then discarding that which is evil and walking away.

Again, I think we agree though that there are some truths to be gleaned from his writings, even if he plagerized them from other sources. The virtue comes in not blindly believing everything, but in critically examineing everything and taking away that which is true.

Thank you Leo for this interesting and refreshing exchange! I have enjoyed it

You forget that these are not just books, but that Castaneda is a very real man who profits everytime somebody buys one of his books. Now, as I said before, it was okay to once be victimized, just as it is okay for a lady to be raped, provided she made clear her objections. But it is not okay to go back for more once one discovers the true nature of the proceedings.

Seeker, why are we going in circles? What of my ethical arguments. You simply blow them off. Do you really suppose we should use Nazi and Fascist Japanese Medical Research gleened from the sufferings of Inmates and POW's? Do you think we should reward liars and cheats, while honest professors are confined within their modest incomes. And then what of my argument that we can be patient and wait until the same material that was stolen and misappropiated by Casteneda is found in its original sources, and published honestly with attributions and footnotes? Was that too scholarly for you?

But it seems you are a wonderful advocate for Evil. As a Christian I can only suppose that means that you are a Follower of the Wide Way. Those of the Narrow Way are a bit more fussy about their Ethics.

Originally posted by Leo Volont

But it seems you are a wonderful advocate for Evil. As a Christian I can only suppose that means that you are a Follower of the Wide Way. Those of the Narrow Way are a bit more fussy about their Ethics.

Evil??? I????

A follower of the Wide Way? It seems to me that the Wide Way is a label applied to those who seem to be a bit more broad minded than those of the Narrow way?

If this brands me as Evil, then so be it!!! I am EVIL, and wear my badge with honesty and pride!!!!

Tell me Leo, are you a follower of the Wide Way or of the Narrow way? Also, please tell me which way it is you follow? I am unclear on this, which is your way my friend?

Originally posted by Seeker


Evil??? I????


If this brands me as Evil, then so be it!!! I am EVIL, and wear my badge with honesty and pride!!!!

Okay, that's it. You have chosen your Side. You are self proclaimed Evil. Fine. I reject you. Now, please, leave me alone, at least until you have some sort of Moral Awakening that would make you fit for decent company. Until then, stop bothering me.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
The Disengaged Dream Self

The next time you are lucid, simply access your dream self’s memory by asking yourself, for instance, when was the last time I was here at this dream scene, or, where do I usually hang out here in dream land? If the results are the same for you as they were for me, then what will spill out is a complete and coherent set of memories indicating that the Dream Self doesn’t just roll out of nothingness during our REM Cycles, but actually has its own life.

Yes, often my dream self reflects on memories of things which could only have happened in his own world, things which I don't actually remember from any dreams. Perhaps he's sneaking off on his own when I'm awake, and doing things I don't know about.

Originally posted by Villain_S_Deeds


Yes, often my dream self reflects on memories of things which could only have happened in his own world, things which I don't actually remember from any dreams. Perhaps he's sneaking off on his own when I'm awake, and doing things I don't know about.

Good!

I was hoping it was not only myself.

You see, this is Intellectual Honesty at work. When one tells the Truth then there will certainly be others who have seen the same thing. One can only be unique in Lies, for which there will always be an Open Minded Audience -- people not afraid to be Evil, that is willing to place lies on an equality with The Truth.

But, yes, the Dream Self does seem to get around more than most of us probably suspect. I can't help but to think that all of that experience must eventually pay off. this is why I was wondering if one could convince the Dream Self to place more of its interest in venues closer to home. All of the Dream Self's Knowledge may well be interesting, but it may also be so entirely inapplicable to one's mundane life as to be, well, useless.

I do not object to excursions into the Higher Spiritual Planes, in fact, I would prioritize such Journeys. But then we access our Dream Self's Memory and find that the Dream Self spends much of its time simply wondering around the Mid to Low Astral, taking as its starting place the Scenes of Our Youth -- our schools and earlier work experiences. If the Dream Self is going to be in the Lower and Mid Astral anyway, it might as well tag along in a close parallel to our present lives, so that its knowledge and insights might be of some practical use.

Originally posted by Leo Volont


Okay, that's it. You have chosen your Side. You are self proclaimed Evil. Fine. I reject you. Now, please, leave me alone, at least until you have some sort of Moral Awakening that would make you fit for decent company. Until then, stop bothering me.

Leo I have to say that Seeker is an amazing individual...you have no idea how much he does for the people here and how much he loves this place...and how much he has helped me. And even though you know I have the greatest respect and love for you, I cannot take it lightly when you insult him.

This has greatly saddened and disappointed me.

Originally posted by Aquanina


Leo I have to say that Seeker is an amazing individual...you have no idea how much he does for the people here and how much he loves this place...and how much he has helped me. And even though you know I have the greatest respect and love for you, I cannot take it lightly when you insult him.

This has greatly saddened and disappointed me.

And what am I supposed to do for him? He answers none of my arguments but comes back pretending to be so much more open minded than myself because he is willing to suborn fraud and deceit. And then he lightly takes on the Designation of Evil... what? as some Rhetorical Device!? Am I supposed to be amused?

And how many times and in how many ways am I to answer that we should not buy stolen goods from evil men, even if the stolen goods may appear useful. Seeker avoids the ethical problem completely and returns again and again to the pragmatic. Same same same same. It becomes harrassment.

Let him apologize to me. Better yet, let's have a Moderator discipline him for his insensibility and rudeness.

He was never rude Leo.

And Seeker is a very sensible man...and would never harrass anyone. Please keep in mind that everyone holds their own beliefs, and that everyone has the right to express their beliefs and opinions here. You express your beliefs and people accept them or reject them...so you must also listen to people's beliefs and you are free to accept them or reject them as well. But saying that it is a harrassment for expressing what someone believes in...then you...dear Leo who holds such strong beliefs and opinions...are being a tad hypocritical are you not?

Originally posted by Aquanina
He was never rude Leo.

And Seeker is a very sensible man...and would never harrass anyone. Please keep in mind that everyone holds their own beliefs, and that everyone has the right to express their beliefs and opinions here. You express your beliefs and people accept them or reject them...so you must also listen to people's beliefs and you are free to accept them or reject them as well. But saying that it is a harrassment for expressing what someone believes in...then you...dear Leo who holds such strong beliefs and opinions...are being a tad hypocritical are you not?

You do not think that holding to a circular argument where you completely ignore the other person's inputs is harrassment? Go back and look at the thread. When was he ever going to quit? Is it not harrassment to expect me finally to endorse Evil or he would never let me have any peace. Was it not harrassment to accuse me of bigotry because I would not tolerate Evil. I answered all of his arguments, but he didn't even pretend to have read any of mine, but again and again and again, no argument but mere assertion that he enjoys those ill-gotten gains and that I should give them my endorcement. Why was NO never an acceptable answer.

What if somebody were to pursue you and not take NO for an answer. Would that finally meet your standards of harrassment. You of all people should be able to show some empathy here.