Thread: Drugs and their potential benefits for society.

well yea your right. if everyone smoked weed, there would be no wars...because everyone would just want to chill out and have fun. There also wouldn't be any crime because people would just plain be too lazy to go knock over a liquor store....if everyone smoked weed the world would just be more peaceful.

I love the story about the LSD and the girl thinking the baby was a turkey..LOL..priceless, they told us this when I was in school. What a crock of shit.

Originally Posted by imran_p

encouraged in sensible doses at sensible times.

The problem with this is that people are not sensible. People can be really, really dumb. In this hypothetical situation with all these drugs legalised, there's going to be more people taking too many drugs. LSD can induce psychosis (even if it is only short-term most of the time), overdosing on DMT (ie Ecstacy) can have harmful effects and the overuse of many of these drugs could cause psychologic addiction.

If we assume for the moment that this theoretical society with all these drugs legalised would lead to this: "Society would be much more compassionate, forgiving, intellectually curious and humanitarian." . . . then it's still essential you have some kind of control on the amount and frequency of the drugs taken. I'm afraid "encouraging" simply doesn't work for some people.

I am a libertarian, not a libertine, so I am for legalization of drugs but the consumption of such things are a personal matter.

Originally Posted by Kiza

The problem with this is that people are not sensible. People can be really, really dumb. In this hypothetical situation with all these drugs legalised, there's going to be more people taking too many drugs. LSD can induce psychosis (even if it is only short-term most of the time), overdosing on DMT (ie Ecstacy) can have harmful effects and the overuse of many of these drugs could cause psychologic addiction.

If we assume for the moment that this theoretical society with all these drugs legalised would lead to this: "Society would be much more compassionate, forgiving, intellectually curious and humanitarian." . . . then it's still essential you have some kind of control on the amount and frequency of the drugs taken. I'm afraid "encouraging" simply doesn't work for some people.

I don't understand your point. Alcohol is legal and plenty of people aren't sensible with that. There are entire holiday resorts just so people can go and not be sensible with alcohol. We have no control over the frequency or amount taken, yet there are plenty of people that consume alcohol sensibly and in a way that enriches there lives. Why can these relatively non toxic drugs that I have listed not be based on the same model?

Originally Posted by Kiza

The problem with this is that people are not sensible. People can be really, really dumb. In this hypothetical situation with all these drugs legalised, there's going to be more people taking too many drugs. LSD can induce psychosis (even if it is only short-term most of the time), overdosing on DMT (ie Ecstacy) can have harmful effects and the overuse of many of these drugs could cause psychologic addiction.

Dude, did you just say DMT and Ecstasy are one in the same?

They are completely different drugs. DMT is DMT, Ecstasy is MDMA.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Dude, did you just say DMT and Ecstasy are one in the same?

They are completely different drugs. DMT is DMT, Ecstasy is MDMA.

This

So we're mainly referring to entheogens here? Drugs is such an umbrella term, ropes in the other stuff like meth and heroin. I mean I'm for the legalization of everything personally, but when trying to convince other people the term 'drugs' tends to get stigmatized because of the others.

I figure we would live in a much better place if things were legal AND we were educated. Take salvia. Not many people know what it is, and assume it to be a legal, shitty version of cannabis. There's been instances of people taking it for the first time while driving, and we all know where that can lead. The way I see it there's two options. Ban the substance and arrest people who own it, or educate people to make sure it doesn't happen again. Pretty obvious what the more freedom-respecting choice is.

As far as psychosis goes, yes it does happen. A trip in itself is in many ways an induced psychosis. Drugs; hallucinogens, opiates, and all, have side effects and risk factors. Pharmaceutical drugs have killed as a complication from side effects. Again, educate people of the risks, and let them decide for themselves whether the risks/side-effects are worth it.

The way I see it this isn't a very hard concept. But having a "more compassionate, forgiving, intellectually curious and humanitarian" society to sell things to isn't very profitable for the commercially interested. So those people are going to try very hard to keep these things illegal. I can't believe simple ignorance is the reason why something like cannabis or peyote is still illegal.

I think all drugs should be legal and agree that pot generally makes people act better than they would otherwise, but I don't believe psychedelics have the potential of creating a peaceful world at this phase of our evolution. LSD was a major part of the Manson family lifestyle, warring Native American tribes routinely took peyote, and it is tradition for gangs to smoke pot before pulling drive by shootings. It's not enough.

Originally Posted by Kiza

overdosing on DMT (ie Ecstacy)

dude... lol, you have no idea what these drugs are do you, nor what they do TO you.

I support legalization of all drugs that society uses and abuses. Punishing people for something that is a personal decision is an entirely stupid thing to do, because people will do it anyway, regardless of risk. I believe that it is a person's most fundamental right to control what they do with their body, and that somebody else should not make that decision for them. (See my sig quote.) However, I think that it would be best if the legal establishments that sell drugs were required to provide accurate information about the risks, effects, and best methods of use to first-time users. Like other people have said, using hallucinogens in bad situations or with the improper mindset and expectations has led to bad instances in the past.

Several of those drugs have proven negative long term effects, even with moderate use. MDMA can for instance render you unable to be happy, and I believe a few have been screwed up for life by LSD. Probably some of the others are dangerous too, I haven't read too much about them.
Now, I'm all for legalizing drugs with only minor health risks, such as cannabis. Also in these debates people tend to leave out pharmaceutical drugs, yet many of them can be stimulating/relaxing/fun/whatever too. For instance could some benzodiazepine-like drugs be used instead of alcohol.

Originally Posted by khh

Several of those drugs have proven negative long term effects, even with moderate use. MDMA can for instance render you unable to be happy, and I believe a few have been screwed up for life by LSD. Probably some of the others are dangerous too, I haven't read too much about them.
Now, I'm all for legalizing drugs with only minor health risks, such as cannabis. Also in these debates people tend to leave out pharmaceutical drugs, yet many of them can be stimulating/relaxing/fun/whatever too. For instance could some benzodiazepine-like drugs be used instead of alcohol.

That's the problem..you READ about it and don't know how it really is. You too obviously don't know how drugs work...yes they can have negative long term effects, but that's if you abuse them. You don't think Doctors and Lawyers do hard drugs...they DO.

You need to learn how to be happy on your own without drugs. That's the whole problem.

Moderate use of drugs is ok if you research it it know wtf you are doing and don't abuse them.

If you eat too much you will get fat
If you think negatively too much you will become a negative person
If you take Percocets too much you will be physically addicted and will get sick if you don't have it...

Addiction starts off because your mentally addicted to the feeling, and in turn you will be physically addicted where you NEED to have it or you get sick.

I have used Percocets and Lortabs recreationaly ( maybe 3 or 4 times a year ) and I'm fine.

If you take drugs solely on your instinct your going to quickly be sucked in. You need to think. If your aware of your thoughts, you'll know when your thinking of drugs too much.

Too much of anything is bad for you..even water.

I support the legalization of all drugs but they shouldn't be encouraged.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

That's the problem..you READ about it and don't know how it really is. You too obviously don't know how drugs work...yes they can have negative long term effects, but that's if you abuse them. You don't think Doctors and Lawyers do hard drugs...they DO.

Actually, doing drugs doesn't really give you any advantages when it comes to evaluating their long term effects on people. Experience wins hands down in a debate on how experiencing different drugs are, but only scientific research and statistics can tell you how dangerous they are. So in this context book-learning is in fact highly applicable.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

You need to learn how to be happy on your own without drugs. That's the whole problem.

You mean that's the whole problem with addiction and overuse? I don't see how this is relevant to my post.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Moderate use of drugs is ok if you research it it know wtf you are doing and don't abuse them.

Moderate use of some drugs is OK if you research is and know wtf you're doing. But everything that has an effect have side-effects, and those side-effects could be nasty, even if you only use drugs moderately. Did you for instance know that some body lotions contain substances that can lower fertility of off-spring if girls use them while pregnant? Things have to be researches extensively before they can be considered safe. (note that I'm not suggesting we outlaw lotions, I'm just saying that care is needed).

yes and the potential side-effects from walking across a street is getting kissed by a mack truck..

Everything has side effects.

There's nothing perfectly safe in this world...not even breathing

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

yes and the potential side-effects from walking across a street is getting kissed by a mack truck..

Yes, and this is (amongst other things) why we have traffic rules.

People break rules.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Dude, did you just say DMT and Ecstasy are one in the same?

They are completely different drugs. DMT is DMT, Ecstasy is MDMA.

Fuck. That was an accident, sorry. I know Ecstacy is MDMA. I guess that's what comes from posting late at night. I do have an idea what these drugs are, Hard_Wired, and I do understand what drugs do to you.

Oh, and what does people breaking rules have to do with anything? Traffic rules are there so people don't die crossing the street, and just because people break the rules doesn't mean they're not logical. In this hypothetical society, care WOULD be needed. For every person that does know about drugs and is careful about the whole thing, there's going to be fucking idiots who don't know shit about drugs and are going to be dumb about it.

Originally Posted by khh

MDMA can for instance render you unable to be happy

I wouldn't go that far. It has tenable links to causing clinical depression, but it's quite hard to study this as a cause and effect relationship. How do you know if the person wasn't going to get depressed anyway? In Australia, 1 in 4 people is either depressed or hasn't yet been diagnosed with depression.

My brother has been taking every drug under the sun since he was 13 years old. He's now 22 and has been depressed for the last 2 years. I've been taking ecstasy for 2 years now and I've just been diagnosed with depression two months ago. I limit myself to one high every 3-5 months, special occasions only.

However, we both have a long history of mental illness on both sides of our family (show me a family that doesn't, it's remarkably common).

Did the drugs cause my depression? Perhaps. That's a consequence I'll have to live with. But I gladly accept that consequence because I wouldn't give up the feeling of a full blown high for anything in the world.

My brothers friends have been taking X for the last decade and none of them have depression. It's possible that taking it just activated my predisposition to being depressed, that I may have gotten to this point some time later in life anyway without the drug. I'll never know, but I don't mind that.

I agree Alex. It's like what they say with weed and laziness, 9 times out of 10 you were already lazy before you started smoking..

I used to play basketball WHILE I was high.

Plus with Ex, it runs up all your serotonin/dopamine which are feel-good chemicals...you have to let your brain recharge to rebuild dopamine/serotonin levels.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Plus with Ex, it runs up all your serotonin/dopamine which are feel-good chemicals...you have to let your brain recharge to rebuild dopamine/serotonin levels.

The point is that excessive use of the drug (don't know quite how much) can damage the glands (for lack of a better word) that produce dopamine/serotonin. And you don't want to be in a state like that.

Portugal has tons of drugs legalized, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, meth, etc and they have less usage rates than the US...

Originally Posted by C-Fonz

Portugal has tons of drugs legalized, heroin, cocaine, marijuana, meth, etc and they have less usage rates than the US...

and I bet there are less crimes in Portugal. Most of the crime in the U.S. comes from hard drugs, I mean....crack and heroin completely destroys neighborhoods, that's why ghettos are the way they are now. In U.S. ghetto's, I mean everybody just uses each other, there's hardly any "togetherness" anymore..quite sad being that the U.S. is the biggest drug lord on the planet..no this isn't conspiracy.

Originally Posted by khh

The point is that excessive use of the drug (don't know quite how much) can damage the glands (for lack of a better word) that produce dopamine/serotonin. And you don't want to be in a state like that.

True, you don't want to be in a state like that, but you won't be if you use responsibly. If someone choses not to use responsibly, then that is their choice, and they must deal with the consequences, the same way a lazy student decides to not do his homework, and must therefore deal with the consequences. However, you would not make it illegal to not do homework, that would just be absurd.

Also, for the previous stated notion that only science can tell you just how dangerous a substance is, is not necessarily true. The majority of the information out about the effects of MDMA right now is highly based off of current conjecture from it's users because of the difficulty of anyone obtaining a license to be able to work scientifically with the substance. There has been little conclusive scientific studies to point out it's neurotoxic effects, however we can be certain that it has neurotoxic effects because of the thousands of people who have used and abused it and had problems afterwards. The evidence right now seems to point almost definitely to the fact that any moderate drug use will not cause any permanent damage in the brain, or at the most it will be so insignificant that it makes absolutely no difference in your daily life and would never be noticed anyhow, and thus does not impact your life in any way whatsoever.

There has been a trend lately where people have stopped smoking, because we have finally started releasing legitimate information about tobacco, telling of its true effects. I notice a lot less people smoking nowadays, and a lot of people quitting because they know it's bad for them now. To me, there seems to be no reason why we would not legalize drugs like MDMA and cannabis, and along with them publish their effects so that people know what they're dealing with. It would be a lot safer for the users (no unsafe binders in their pills, etc), it would inform the uninformed users of the consequences (there are a lot of people who jump into drug use without the proper research as we all know, and they all end up feeling the consequences because they didn't know how to properly use), it would put an end to problems with the drug trade/some gang problems, and people would no longer have to fear being prosecuted for their own personal informed and logical choices (for those who have actually done their research and informed themselves that is).

Keeping drugs illegal is like making driving illegal because somebody who doesn't know how to drive might use a car. You make it legal for people who have a license because they've demonstrated that they know how to use a car. Perhaps a similar system could be in affect with drugs, like the user has to demonstrate their knowledge of the effects and consequences of the use of a certain drug before they're given a license to buy said drug.