Thread: Had we evolved??

Howetzer wrote:

But my point to ponder is this.
What if we had put the same amount of time, effort, and schooling into the realm of the other areas of the brain. A more psychology based environment. The subconscious. [/b]

I think that the lack of practicality (as applied to military and/or economics) greatly reduces government funding for such research.

What would we have gained?
Telekanesis = The movement of objects by scientifically inexplicable means, as by the exercise of an occult power.
Lucid dreaming = aslo labled as an occult at times
ESP Extra sensory perception
Astral projection/remote ditant viewing
OBE's Out of body experiences [/b]

There's no telling what abilities we would uncover considering the vast amount of unused brain matter that we posses...I wouldn't rule out any of those options.

I don't really see what you are getting at here, but I'll attempt to reply anyway. So bear with me.

As in terms of the brain evolving, we have already reached the pinnacle in development - if the brain is any smaller, we are, obviously, less intelligent; if it evolves to become bigger, communication between different areas of the brain will slow down and the effect would be lower intelligence, so, either way, we are better off as we are now.

In terms of ESP, telepathy etc., the very technology that you have mentioned in the first paragraph is beginning to help us out there; researchers are already starting to integrate computers with the nervous system, devices which transmit the state of your nervous system to a remote computer - possibly inbuilt into another persons nervous system? Telepathy is soon becoming a distinct reality.

Originally posted by Identity X
I don't really see what you are getting at here, but I'll attempt to reply anyway. So bear with me.
As in terms of the brain evolving, we have already reached the pinnacle in development - if the brain is any smaller, we are, obviously, less intelligent; if it evolves to become bigger, communication between different areas of the brain will slow down and the effect would be lower intelligence, so, either way, we are better off as we are now.

In terms of ESP, telepathy etc., the very technology that you have mentioned in the first paragraph is beginning to help us out there; researchers are already starting to integrate computers with the nervous system, devices which transmit the state of your nervous system to a remote computer - possibly inbuilt into another persons nervous system? Telepathy is soon becoming a distinct reality.

"As in terms of the brain evolving, we have already reached the pinnacle in development "
That is a ludicrous statement!
I don't even know where to begin picking that apart.

And the technology a nervous system has nothing to do with the areas I am talikng about. That is envoking cognitive skills. which is going down the path that i am procaliming it to.
as you said, "Telepathy is soon becoming a distinct reality." that is my point. where would we be if it had gone the other way?

Originally posted by InTheMoment
considering the vast amount of unused brain matter that we posses

Incorrect.

Damn that myth!

I swear, it's like every hypnosis-con artist uses that (not to go against real hypnotists, mind you) to sell a product. It is not true...

Also, funding for such projects that concern pseudosciences is close to nothing. You'd have to start getting Mr. Gates into Lucid Dreaming and the like, for any progress.

Originally posted by Joseph_Stalin+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Joseph_Stalin)</div>

Also, funding for such projects that concern pseudosciences is close to nothing. You'd have to start getting Mr. Gates into Lucid Dreaming and the like, for any progress.
[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-InTheMoment
I think that the lack of practicality (as applied to military and/or economics) greatly reduces government funding for such research.

Maybe I worded this wrong. I am well aware of the reasons that it has become this way. My post was to try an envoke a conversation of what could be. and where are development could be at this point had it been given the same attention.

And bradybaker! Come on. I know you have more in you than that.

You can't really say where we would be. I suppose we'd either be floating around seeing who's the greatest genius, or just having a regular discussion as we are now.

I don't really get what you mean by "the other way". I dont really see any coherentness (a word?) in this argument at all. Sorry.

Originally posted by Identity X
I don't really get what you mean by \"the other way\". I dont really see any coherentness (a word?) in this argument at all. Sorry.

Coherence.

Originally posted by Kaniaz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kaniaz)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Identity X

I don't really get what you mean by \"the other way\". I dont really see any coherentness (a word?) in this argument at all. Sorry.

Coherence.[/b]

I just did not see the correlation with integrating the nervous system with computors with the subject at hand. That is all.

Your system of developement to me is going "the other way" as opopsed to deveoping the uncharted areas of the brain that we don't explore or put much emphasize on doing either.

ESP, TK, OBE....are very interesting concepts. Who wouldn't want to be able to perform some of the same feats as their favorite comic book characters? Unfortunately, here in reality, claims by people who apparently possess these powers are completely and utterly baseless. This is not because they have not been studied, they have been studied, at great length and cost. However, zero (zilch, nada) positive observations of these phenomena have ever been seen in a controlled setting.

Unfortunately, an astounding number of people still have faith that these powers are real. Why?

Here's why:

1) Biased reporting - positive experience are always reported (ie. some guy says that he dreamt that JFK was going to be assasinated, JFK gets assasinated, everyone says 'Hey, ESP must be real!'), negatives are ignored (ie. the fact that some didn't dream that JFK was going to be assasinated will never make the news). This is also known as "confirmation bias", people tend to remember positive hits and ignore negative hits to support their favorite beliefs.

2) Will to believe - there is of course the effect of wishful thinking. People, in general, desire predictability and control over their surroundings to comfort them (ie. OBEs tend to suggest the presence of a soul and therefore support the idea of an afterlife, easing our greatest fear, death). Therefore they are much more willing to believe in such phenomena in hopes of of attaining just that much more control over their situation.

3) Everyday experience - Everyday, people observe what they believe to be strange or even impossible coincidences. However, all of these 'coincidence' are completely statistically explainable. Here's a good article to help articulate my point:

Miracle on Probability Street
The Law of Large Numbers guarantees that one-in-a-million miracles happen 295 times a day in America
By Michael Shermer

Because I am often introduced as a "professional skeptic," people feel compelled to challenge me with stories about highly improbable events. The implication is that if I cannot offer a satisfactory natural explanation for that particular event, the general principle of supernaturalism is preserved. A common story is the one about having a dream or thought about the death of a friend or relative and then receiving a phone call five minutes later about the unexpected death of that very person.
I cannot always explain such specific incidents, but a principle of probability called the Law of Large Numbers shows that an event with a low probability of occurrence in a small number of trials has a high probability of occurrence in a large number of trials. Events with million-to-one odds happen 295 times a day in America.

In their delightful book Debunked! (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2004), CERN physicist Georges Charpak and University of Nice physicist Henri Broch show how the application of probability theory to such events is enlightening. In the case of death premonitions, suppose that you know of 10 people a year who die and that you think about each of those people once a year. One year contains 105,120 five-minute intervals during which you might think about each of the 10 people, a probability of one out of 10,512--certainly an improbable event. Yet there are 295 million Americans. Assume, for the sake of our calculation, that they think like you. That makes 1/10,512 X 295,000,000 = 28,063 people a year, or 77 people a day for whom this improbable premonition becomes probable. With the well-known cognitive phenomenon of confirmation bias firmly in force (where we notice the hits and ignore the misses in support of our favorite beliefs), if just a couple of these people recount their miraculous tales in a public forum (next on Oprah!), the paranormal seems vindicated. In fact, they are merely demonstrating the laws of probability writ large.

You are a perfect example of the right brain progression to where it is today. Our society has eccepted that. And admires it. But it it will be that and nothing more.

Originally posted by Howetzer
You are a perfect example of the right brain progression to where it is today. Our society has eccepted that. And admires it. But it it will be that and nothing more.

Please elaborate.

Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>

Originally posted by Howetzer@
You are a perfect example of the right brain progression to where it is today. Our society has eccepted that. And admires it. But it it will be that and nothing more.

Please elaborate.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-bradybaker
ESP, TK, OBE....are very interesting concepts. Who wouldn't want to be able to perform some of the same feats as their favorite comic book characters? Unfortunately, here in reality, claims by people who apparently possess these powers are completely and utterly baseless. This is not because they have not been studied, they have been studied, at great length and cost. However, zero (zilch, nada) positive observations of these phenomena have ever been seen in a controlled setting.

I think such a linear approach to thinking is containment. And with it comes the limitations. And you may be giving our brain less credit than it could earn. With that process of thought, it will be that and nothing more.

[i][I would like to say that I read that article and scientific american

A concept much like a hypothesis is merley something that you can't pin down.
So a way to justify the unexplained;
Your second reason behind why people believe in these, \"powers.\"

2) Will to believe - there is of course the effect of wishful thinking. People, in general, desire predictability and control over their surroundings to comfort them (ie. OBEs tend to suggest the presence of a soul and therefore support the idea of an afterlife, easing our greatest fear, death). Therefore they are much more willing to believe in such phenomena in hopes of of attaining just that much more control over their situation. [/b]

This mereley a scientist trying in their own way to do something similar to their own point. They attach themselves to a belief system based opon facts. But isn't a fact no more than a theory at one point? And can't it not be turned just as quickly back into a revised theory with more facts?

The way our culture has evolved limits ourselves with outcomes. If a scientists dubs it fact that you can't astral project. You can't, or science tells them so, therefore he/she won't.
Much like the same way that our conscious is hammpered by it's own lableing process that tells it that it is not capable of.....well, anything.
With limits set the bar will never be raised!

Inconclusive results can be as opaque as muddy water. For not to have conclusive results only points to the reasoning that all possibilities have not been met.
The mind wants limits, it needs limits. Otherwise the entire realm of inconclusive out comes burdens our thought process in a manner it cannot handle.
Giving rise to why people give birth to relgion and an almighty power. Much in concert with a scientist attaching his or herself to fact based conclusive result.

Not once did I say that science has proven that you cannot astral project or move needles with your mind. I simply pointed out that no reliable observations of such phenomena have ever, ever, ever been observed. And it's not for lack of trying. The US government spent millions trying to utilize such skills during the cold war, with ZERO success.

There is the same amount of evidence for such paranomal phenomena as there is for unicorns and sasquatches. (Heck, even big foot has been caught on tape!)

Now you can call that a "linear containment mode of thought", or whatever you want, but if you believe in such things, do you believe that there is a '57 Chevy orbiting Jupiter right now? It's possible you know.

bradybaker,
You said this, "Unfortunately, an astounding number of people still have faith that these powers are real. Why?
Here's why:." And then went on to list your scientifically based conclusions to why. I may be misunderstanding. So I oppolgize if that is the case. But I did not want to get into that debate. However if I started it then.......!
But to go back to my origanal idea.

Originally posted by bradybaker
There is the same amount of evidence for such paranomal phenomena as there is for unicorns and sasquatches. (Heck, even big foot has been caught on tape!) *

This fuels my point! This is what spawned my question to begin with. If you look at what I had said/or asked.
I am saying----> where would we be? We cannot know based opon facts, because you cannot associate a couple of million dollars of research with a whole culture that has evolved astray from a culture of wich would evolve and molded into a society that revovles around a different aspect of our brains.
Me, speaking for our United states, our Gov. probably dumps more money in one year on the science of how children react to noise than five years combined on the study of the subconscious and it's undeveloped abilities. (thit is not fact, rather an over zealous assumtion*)
Look I see him, it's sasquatche

Originally posted by Howetzer
But my point to ponder is this.
What if we had put the same amount of time, effort, and schooling into the realm of the other areas of the brain. A more psychology based environment. The subconscious.
What would we have gained?
Telekanesis = The movement of objects by scientifically inexplicable means, as by the exercise of an occult power.
Lucid dreaming = aslo labled as an occult at times
ESP Extra sensory perception
Astral projection/remote ditant viewing
OBE's Out of body experiences

So had things been switched around, would the world view something we label now as an advancement a taboo topic? Much like lucid dreaming is today?

That would depend entirely on whether or not such phenomena are physically possible Your question seems basically to be: "Would we advance more in an area in which we focus our time, money, and effort?" The answer, of course, is "yes". That applies to just about everything. If you work at something, you will advance, all other variables remaining equal.

Originally posted by Peregrinus
That would depend entirely on whether or not such phenomena are physically possible * * Your question seems basically to be: *\"Would we advance more in an area in which we focus our time, money, and effort?\" *The answer, of course, is \"yes\". *That applies to just about everything. *If you work at something, you will advance, all other variables remaining equal.

I know that the more time resources and effort put into something will help its advancment.

And instead of an answer, you can't answer that because we as humans did not follow that path.
Some of the greatest questions are ones that cannot be solve through an equation. Rather an abstract thought or an obscure viewpoint. A preposterous idea.

I know that the question is a bit capricious. But for just an instance can you physic buffs put some logical thinking and data aside and brianstorm on an idea of what might have been? Where we could be?
It could take as much thought as to come up with the logical reasoning for why or why we would be here nor there by factual puncuation.

I think we'd be right where we are now. Extensive study and research would reveal nothing, but some people would continue to 'believe' anyways.

This is just a general observation, but it's relevant to this discussion of "psychic phenomena". We've all had weird shit happen to us in our lives for which we don't have an explanation, but just because you or I can't explain something doesn't mean that it can't be explained. Logic and science are just tools for understanding-- they don't "rule out" anything. One can think logically telekinesis, ESP, OBE's, etc. In fact, unless you're writing a fantasy novel, it's probably the most productive way to think about it.

I guess the last two posts answers my question.

I know that the question is a bit capricious. But for just an instance can you physic buffs put some logical thinking and data aside and brianstorm on an idea of what might have been? Where we could be?

Originally posted by bradybaker
I think we'd be right where we are now. Extensive study and research would reveal nothing, but some people would continue to 'believe' anyways.

We would not be right where we are now if we had not put the resouces, time and effort we had towards the modern technology we have today.

It is easy for you to lable, but hard for you to imagine isnt it?

The use of western science does not imply that one lacks imagination. Besides, I already gave my official response: "If physically possible, then yes, probably." You don't even have to make a leap of imagination to see that-- just investigate a few non-western cultures. Here in the US, a good example is the Navaho. They have a firm belief (or at least the traditionalists do) in the existence of magic and witchcraft and witches, and according to my anthropology prof who's done the bulk of his research on that culture, speak as earnestly about death by a witch's curse as we would about a car crash. Before Europeans came through and really got their "conquer the world" bit cranked up, Native American peoples were perfectly happy and content without western science and technology. Their cultures and environment did not require it. They also did tend to place more emphasis on the mystical and the experiences of the mind, so Brady's comment about us being right where we are today regardless of the developmental history of our culture displays a certain amount of anthropocentrism. Just because something is possible (e.g. western technology) does not mean that it will be discovered or developed in the absence of cultural impetus.

There is actually a bit of funding to such things by the US government (and even the Soviet Union had established funding for this as well). The government is basically using their resources and "supposedly" are using people to see enemy encampments and base structures and the like. Whether this funding was produced because of interest or in retailiation to Soviet plans, is unknown. The government has obviously not said much about the programs. Now of course, just because the United States government has allocated a significant amount of money to this idea of telekenisis, does not automatically make it real or anything, but this is pretty interesting to know.

Do we evolve.

As a People?

The good news is that History shows us that a People, once Civilized, appear to be more inclined to continue in Civilization than Primitive and Barbarian Peoples. The Bad News is that the Powers that Be in the World today are mostly Barbarian. First it was the English who were barely on the threshold of Civilization when the Norman Barbarians gained sway over them. Europe's Civilized Latin half has lost influence to the Barbarian Teutonics and Northmen who only recently stopped wearing horns on their headgear. And the Yanks today who endlessly chant for Freedom Freedom Freedom are actually advocating nothing more than a Chaos that they hope to take advantage of. As soon as they can find no benefits in other people's freedom, they call it terrorism and invade. It is Barbarian Anarchy that drives the World today.

But the Civilized Cultures still exercise some influence upon the minorities of intelligent people who would incline toward Civilization if given the choice. Within the World'd Higher Religions we have some truly Mystical and Spiritual Movements. Such Spirituality used to be protected by Esoteric Secrecy, but now it seems that our Barbarian Masters quite dismiss such things as silly and suppose everyone else must dismiss it too. So the doors to Spirituality are kept quite open for those who would wish to take advantage.

As for one's personal Evolution. If one comes from Barbarian stock... well, one must begin somewhere. The journey of a 1000 li begins with the first step. The Noble Family of a 100 Pure Generations must start with ... well, with whatever people are before they become noble and pure. The Barbarian Aryans were quite civilized by India, and no Nomad Race that ever invaded China did so without being Civilized by the experience. The Greeks were Civilized, somewhat, by their invasion of Persia. Latin Europe acquired the taste for Civilization in not so many generations (if only the Germans and the Anglo Saxans would ever begin to indulge). so, for the individual, it is never too late to begin.

The question might arise, how much progress can be made in one lifetime. No, I do not speak of Reincarnation but of ordinary biological reproduction. In studying the Saints of the various Higher Religions, it becomes evident that Holy individuals come from Holy Families for the most part. I simply can't recall a chicken stealing horsethief ever making much progress on the Spiritual Way... for such a one probably the most we can expect is that he stop stealing chickens and horses.

Yet there may be some hope in the Collective Subconsciousness. The Human Race is getting older and wiser and so the Energy of Civilization which has a greater Supernatural Power than anything Barbarism can offer may be empowering the Collective Subconsciousness. We may be able to be influenced by a Civilizing and Spiritualizing Influence from beyond ourselves, if once we open up to it.