Thread: How do you guys feel about the state of American animation?

The old Warner Brothers cartoons dominated, then the 60's and 70's Saturday morning cartoons were the best ever, and now South Park and The Family Guy are the greatest.

By the way, the younger people here probably aren't that familiar with the idea of Saturday morning cartoons. There were tons of great ones. They would start showing on all three networks (Those, PBS, and UHF were all anybody got until HBO came out in the late 70's) soon after sunrise and be on until about 11 a.m. The Bugs Bunny Road Runner Show came on for an hour and a half every Saturday morning, and it was the king of the Saturday morning cartoon shows.

>implying most anime isn't derived from distorted/exaggerated Western influence

Originally Posted by Abra

>implying most anime isn't derived from distorted/exaggerated Western influence

So what?

If Anime is better than western anime now, that's what matters.

Who cared what the influences are, it's about the quality now.

Children's animation was pretty good when I was that age, stuff like Hey arnold, Rocko's Modern Life, Doug... but I've seen my friend's little brother watching it nowadays and frankly it sucks.

Some animation nowadays is pretty good, South Park, Family Guy (to an extent), even shows like ATHF and Metalocalypse.

As far as over all quality, I really can't stand America's animation. Somebody go turn on nicktoons one day. You'll be disgusted by sloppy ugly animation and character design. The voices are almost always annoying. With all teh characters having high pitched nasal voices, whereas the main characters are the one's that actually have good voice actors.

I'm also not very fond of this new flash animation used in south park, and family guy. It's very dull and tasteless.

Not to mention the content. They are all dull and stupid, imo, and an insult to intelligence.

I myself much prefer japanimation (or anime) to american cartoons.

Generally better voices, better plots, usually farily well directed, and ometimes with very catchy soundtracks.

Bambi, Dumbo, snow white and the seven dwarves, pinocchio, fantasia, cinderlla, alice in wonderland, sleeping beauty, the sword in the stone, the jungle book, aladdin, beauty and the beast, the little mermaid. You know I could keep going on and on, but I am just trying to make a point. Not only are all of the above considered classics, unless your really young, you probably seen every single one of them.

I would say there was a ton of good cartoons when I was a kid as well, and there is still today. The only way japanise animation is better than the US, is that it has more shows focused on adults, while US animation still goes mostly towards younger people. Though we do have adult stuff, and the stuff made for children, is often good enough for adults. In fact, we are way better at making family stuff, that adults and their children can watch together. We are also better in most ways for comedies.

Now if you want violent story telling, japanise animation is the place to go. Also to be fair, they probably put out far more of stuff. So you get far more junk anime than anything else, but mixed in with the junk there is a lot of good stuff. Its just because they make so much though.

Have to remeber, by the time anime gets over here, most of the junk gets filtered out(though there is still some bad stuff).

Originally Posted by Noogah

I'm also not very fond of this new flash animation used in south park, and family guy. It's very dull and tasteless.

Not to mention the content. They are all dull and stupid, imo, and an insult to intelligence.

I guess that's a matter of opinion to a major extent, but I challenge you to tell me a show or movie with more intelligently written satire than South Park's. I think it's the best satire in the history of television and movies.

Almost all american adult cartoons continue the same old status quo of the american apathetic attitude, that life doesn't matter and watching a teenage girl get beaten by her father is funny. There are so many other forms of entertainment besides base and immoral humor. Family guy has gone way down hill, it's become way too much like south park. And south park is shit.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was just few shitty apathetic cartoons here and there, but virtually all american adult cartoons are like this now. There is virtually no diversity in the american adult cartoon scene.

There are so many genres you see in ADULT japanese cartoons that you don't see in adult american cartoons. Theres:
1. Drama
2. Horror - okay yeah we've got horrific south park, but we don't got straight out classical horror. I don't like horrors, but the Japanese know their horrors.
3. Romantic Comedies and Soap Operas. Their soaps actually rival latin countries! AND ITS A CARTOON
4. Fantasy Adventure Realism - compared to Ventura Brothers which retains cartoon sillyness, where you can kill a character, but in the next episode they can figure out some stupid reason why this character didn't actually die. I'm not dissing Venture Brothers, I'm just saying, it's 'silly'.
5. TRADITIONAL Sci-fis. What does this mean? The traditional sci-fi messes with your head, and shows you a possible and real future. But what makes the traditional sci-fi what it is, is how it fills you with ideas you never thought of before. It's not a good sci-fi if it doesn't make you think or question. Though rare gems, the japaense have proven to know their Sci-fi. Where are the american sci-fi cartoons that even come close? We don't have them!! That's sad, just sad.
6. Surreal - like Paranoia Agent. The cartoon ISN'T what it appears to be. Surreal is mature but dream like, sometimes trippy. Sure we have straight out trippy cartoons, but surreal animations retain meaning. Paranoia Agent is trippy and meaningful.

Why are we lacking in these genres in our adult cartoons? Why are virtually all adult american cartoons base immoral humor?

The problem with all american cartoons being completely apathetic is it completely dumbs real life problems so much, you can almost pretend these problems don't exist. I mean, that's the whole reason why you watch them right? Its Idiocracy in the making . Sure ignorance and laughing at real life issues must feel like bliss, but the world is in a real crises right now and it doesn't help that these cartoons actually keep americans apathetic and retarded. Apathy is the reason why america is failing to change for the better.

Probably the only good adult cartoon that's able retain humor, entertainment, and still address problems as REALITY is Boondocks.

My rant is mostly about ADULT cartoons

The only recent kids cartoon Ive seen was Avatar the Last Air Bender. It was awesome! It was awesome because it understood that america was lacking fantasy adventure REALISM. Even though it was originally aired for kids - the average fantard is actually an adult. Why? Because it was a mature and sophisticated cartoon. It applied a huge range of elements : romance, comedy, adventure, fantasy, mythology and realism to make it meaningful.

Characters grew, developed, and changed. How important is this realism? It keeps the viewers HUMAN. If in family guy Meg gets raped or beaten people just laugh. When if something like this were to happen to their own family member it would actually be tramautizing and nothing short of funny. The realism keeps you human. In Avatar the Last Airbender, if Katara was raped and abused - fans would be shocked, angry, confused, some would even cry or scream. Their emotions would retain humanity.

America needs more realism in it's cartoons because apathy in every form needs to end!

Uh I thought the majority of good animation comes from America.

Disney? Pixar?

Anime rarely exceeds these in quality. Miyazaki's an important exception.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I guess that's a matter of opinion to a major extent, but I challenge you to tell me a show or movie with more intelligently written satire than South Park's. I think it's the best satire in the history of television and movies.

hello! do you even know what satire means?

"Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humour in itself so much as an attack on something of which the author strongly disapproves, using the weapon of wit."

Satires serve a purpose. Humor is a way to take away the power of fear, anger, or dogma. Through humor you can take something that seems overbearing and big, and make it completely vulnerable. Humor makes something vulnerable because it reveals the inherent ignorance.

To be honest, I've seen only bits and pieces of random episodes. Because I don't watch south park. Really I don't. What random bits of pieces I've seen were enough to let me know the cartoon is crap.

I remember a guy shitting so big it was the size of a human. WHAT IS THE SATIRE THERE? That taking a dump is a wrong? I mean, does the author really really disprove of really toilet clogging dumps? He's got a crap-phobia? THATS NOT SATIRE.

I remember seeing people murdered in senseless ways. What's the point of satire here? Society already considers being murdered in a senseless way wrong, why would the author be so fired up about senseless murders that he would have to make fun of it to show viewers that being murdered in senseless ways is wrong. THEY ALREADY KNOW ITS WRONG

That's not how satire works. Because guess what, SOUTH PARK IS NOT A SATIRE. It's just apathetic life is meaningless humor.

Boondocks is a satire. It brought up the sensitive issue, an issue still sensitive and confusing between blacks and whites today of the notorious 'N' word. Hell, I don't even know if I'm even allowed to use that word on this forum! That's how confusing the issue is! The cartoon used humor to show how ridiculous and silly this racial double standard is. THAT IS SATIRE. The entire cartoon shows a very specific point of view, that of double standard racism.

South park defenitly has a lot of random stupid stuff in it. However you have to watch more than five minutes of it. A lot of the episodes deal with things going on in american, and yes, it is a satire of it. Most of the major themes of the show involve satire.

Originally Posted by Xei

Uh I thought the majority of good animation comes from America.

Disney? Pixar?

Anime rarely exceeds these in quality. Miyazaki's an important exception.

I hope you're not comparing MOVIES to TELEVISION SERIES. Very different budgets involved. Miyazaki doesn't make series. He makes movies. And he has a huge ass budget. Of course his animated movies are going to look and be better than most anime series.

Miyazaki got started back in the day, along with other great anime creators like Katsuhiro Otomo. They started making anime before anime was super popular across the world. This meant that they made anime because they had a real genunine and passionate drive to do so, which is why the great animes of the 80s are works of art in comparison to most animes today.

I'm not denying there is a lot of crappy anime. My point is however that America is lacking in the diversity of genres. In comparison, Japanese anime has covered virtually every genre. If anything, the only genre I haven't seen Japanse anime cover is the Disney Musical.

South Park is one of the few good ones left. Sipmsons and Family Guy have both turned to shit because they have such a strong fan base that they don't actually have to write good jokes to get people to laugh, they just use crazy antics and violence. I blame the schools for not teaching literature very well. They don't inspire people to read so people don't understand story structure.

If you want some good American Cartoons check out Rlaph Bakshi.

Fritz the Cat
Him talking about the current state of animation

I didn't mention television series...

Even though I don't like boondocks I have to agree that it has something that many cartoons don't have. Meaning perhaps? Or could it just be the way it tells it?

Originally Posted by juroara

hello! do you even know what satire means?

"Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humour in itself so much as an attack on something of which the author strongly disapproves, using the weapon of wit."

Satires serve a purpose. Humor is a way to take away the power of fear, anger, or dogma. Through humor you can take something that seems overbearing and big, and make it completely vulnerable. Humor makes something vulnerable because it reveals the inherent ignorance.

To be honest, I've seen only bits and pieces of random episodes. Because I don't watch south park. Really I don't. What random bits of pieces I've seen were enough to let me know the cartoon is crap.

I remember a guy shitting so big it was the size of a human. WHAT IS THE SATIRE THERE? That taking a dump is a wrong? I mean, does the author really really disprove of really toilet clogging dumps? He's got a crap-phobia? THATS NOT SATIRE.

I remember seeing people murdered in senseless ways. What's the point of satire here? Society already considers being murdered in a senseless way wrong, why would the author be so fired up about senseless murders that he would have to make fun of it to show viewers that being murdered in senseless ways is wrong. THEY ALREADY KNOW ITS WRONG

That's not how satire works. Because guess what, SOUTH PARK IS NOT A SATIRE. It's just apathetic life is meaningless humor.

Boondocks is a satire. It brought up the sensitive issue, an issue still sensitive and confusing between blacks and whites today of the notorious 'N' word. Hell, I don't even know if I'm even allowed to use that word on this forum! That's how confusing the issue is! The cartoon used humor to show how ridiculous and silly this racial double standard is. THAT IS SATIRE. The entire cartoon shows a very specific point of view, that of double standard racism.

Satire does not have to be funny, but being funny does not make something not satire. Also, I didn't say everything that happens on South Park is satire. Personally, I hate the toilet humor on the show. I hate toilet humor period. It is weak, stupid, and disgusting. But the political and social satire on South Park is priceless. For some examples...



http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/150882

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155315

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/149674

I couldn't find my favorite moment in the history of South Park. Satan's ultra-sensitive gay lover, whom Satan left before going out with Saddam Hussein, is the tour guide in Hell. He begins orientation in Hell with a group of people who just died. Somebody in the group says, "What am I doing here? I was a devout Protestant my whole life." The tour guide says something like, "I'm sorry. That's the wrong religion." So the Protestant asks what the right one is, and the tour guide says something to the effect of, "Mormon. And the correct answer was... Mormon."

I think we all need to set criteria on what we think of as good animation.

Is it artistic skill? Is it how good the actual animated movements are? Is it humor? Is there something we can take with us long after the show is over?

Why in this thread does "American animation vs Japanese animation" ONLY mean TV shows? Why exclude movies just to prove a point?

I agree, though, I hate that America has such an ignorant, unenlightened view about animation and what it's good for, while in Japan they do SO many different, adult things with the medium. Anime movies, I've heard, are even more popular and prevalent than their live action movies. Their animation, instead of just being pushed into a box of insignificant kiddie/family entertainment, covers a wide variety of genres and themes.

However, all that considered, it's still hard for me to want to watch any anime. I guess I'm just repulsed by ridiculously drawn female heroines who many times have squeaky, subservient voices, choppy, extremely limited animation and over-the-top violence.

In fact, the only anime I can really watch is Myazaki's films. I LOVED Spirited Away, and one of these days I'm going to watch a marathon of all the films he's done.

I prefer the animation (movement and art style) of Disney, Warner Brothers golden age cartoons and Pixar.

Okay, if you're gonna include movies, I'd say America and Japan are on par. Pixar already gives America a huge advantage.

However, I put Japan on par for the following:

Realism: Everything in a good Miyazaki flows realistically. Japan is a totally different style all together. We pause and observe elements that serve no purpose to plot. We see scenery and ambiance in rich detail, and the movie is usually not in any hurry to go somewhere. Everything tends to fall into place, whereas with most american films, I can almost sense the stiff structure. Can't explain it very well.

Maturity: Nuf said. They don't sugar coat life for the young ones. Things are portrayed like they really are. Most American animations tend to block out such negative every day circumstances. UP is an exception.

And Pixar/classic Disney films, I don't even need to go into why they are so great.

Originally Posted by juroara

hello! do you even know what satire means?

"Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humour in itself so much as an attack on something of which the author strongly disapproves, using the weapon of wit."

Satires serve a purpose. Humor is a way to take away the power of fear, anger, or dogma. Through humor you can take something that seems overbearing and big, and make it completely vulnerable. Humor makes something vulnerable because it reveals the inherent ignorance.

To be honest, I've seen only bits and pieces of random episodes. Because I don't watch south park. Really I don't. What random bits of pieces I've seen were enough to let me know the cartoon is crap.

My first question was going to be 'how familiar are you with south park?' I've watched quite a bit of the show, and I can say that the writers employ satire quite often, especially in later seasons. Take for example the episode avbout Brittney Spears (I forget what it's called); the entire episode is a humorous satire of Hollywood and paparazzi (through a parody of the short story "The Lottery"no less.)

If you have the time, (if you even give a damn ), visit southparkstudios.com and watch the episode "Grey Dawn". You can't not laugh at that.

There seems to be some sort of stigma around animation in America we're slowly getting over. It used to be viewed as very childish, until The Simpsons changed people's perspectives. Think of The Simpsons whatever you will, but without them there wouldn't be any South Park, Family Guy, or any substantial market for adult themed animation. Even now, one of my more closed minded buddies won't watch anything animated based on principle.

Maybe in Japan they just never had that stigma, though I don't really know the history of Anime. I have been getting into it recently though and from a creativity standpoint it definitely does win (in the movies department at least). Disney and Pixar seem average in comparison to me.

^This.

It seems to me at least that the American assumption of animation [mostly by those seeking profit, but also to the general public to some extent] is that it is by and large a niche market, with fairly limited appeal. Most companies obviously look to invest in things that already have a precedent set in terms of marketability.

That, I think, is why we see more attention/investment given to higher quality animated films in the U.S. but less in terms of higher quality animated television series...es. With Disney and Pixar setting the precedent, animators already know that the films will sell. It's less of a risk than investing in a series that may or may not take off.

Obviously it comes down to a matter of taste and culture, but it seems as though America is just beginning to experience the benefits of intelligent and [simultaneously] entertaining adult animation, whereas Japan has a more prolonged [and therefore more profitable] history with the genre.

That's not to say that there aren't good American animated series...es(wtf?) out there, because I personally think there are. But imho I can look to many more animated films than I can television programs that deserve serious praise.

But the market is expanding rapidly in the U.S. and I wouldn't be surprised if the genre becomes an increasingly viable alternative form of storytelling, the way it already has in Japan and elsewhere in the world.

Have you seen any of the animated short films on IFC? They're getting pretty intensely good. The more people show interest in them, the more time and effort animators will put into creating them.

Originally Posted by juroara

To be honest, I've seen only bits and pieces of random episodes. Because I don't watch south park. Really I don't. What random bits of pieces I've seen were enough to let me know the cartoon is crap.

There you go :-)

South Park is totally satirical.

Other than that I think it's out of the question that anime > animation .

Originally Posted by acatalephobic

That, I think, is why we see more attention/investment given to higher quality animated films in the U.S. but less in terms of higher quality animated television series...es. With Disney and Pixar setting the precedent, animators already know that the films will sell. It's less of a risk than investing in a series that may or may not take off.

Whilest this is right, I personally can't really unerstand it.
(I mean I do, but I don't, you know?)

Even though this might be exaggerating it, Disney went downhill a long time
ago and Pixar has landed 3-4 good animated films in the beginning and 95%
crap afterwards. I got very tired very soon of the same style and lack of depth.
Technology is not really important to me and can't compensate for a storyline
or honest character development. And in my eyes you can just tell, when the
driving force behind a film is money, opposed to making a peace of art.

Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

However, all that considered, it's still hard for me to want to watch any anime. I guess I'm just repulsed by ridiculously drawn female heroines who many times have squeaky, subservient voices, choppy, extremely limited animation and over-the-top violence.

hmm, you must be thinking of the ones geared at teens...the ones geared towards adults (while some do still do this) in general do not follow these stereotypes.