Thread: The Intrusion of Socialism in the United States

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Stemming from commentaries in this topic :

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=85882


Rather than go off topic there I will continue here:



The reality and mechanics of socialism is towards the destruction of a societies middle class, the expansion of the lower class, and the creation of a gap between the lower and upper classes so that no vertical movement upwards from the bottom can be achieved .

You can see such a work in progress right here in the United States.

A successful thriving society is based on the efforts of achievers. Individuals who possess qualities of resourcefulness and self sufficiency. People who take responsibilty for themselves and their own well being. People, who by the very nature of their own being, raise society up along with themselves. The capital rewards of their efforts work to continue raising them up and keeping them up, and society alongside them. Hence capatalism.

Socialism comes into the picture and robs these achievers of their rewards, gives those rewards to those who did not rightfully achieve them. Such adds much difficulty in the achievers to achieve and hold themselves up. This makes it more difficult for society to remain aloft as well. Eventually the achievers get dissillusioned and fall back into the ranks of the non achievers, at which time society collapses, because there are not enough achievers to pay for the non achievers.

There is no right or wrong morality to this, just simple mechanics...but then again, robbery is a moral issue isnt it?

Aren't some of the countries with best quality of living borderline socialist? like nordic places.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Stemming from commentaries in this topic :

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=85882


Rather than go off topic there I will continue here:



The reality and mechanics of socialism is towards the destruction of a societies middle class, the expansion of the lower class, and the creation of a gap between the lower and upper classes so that no vertical movement upwards from the bottom can be achieved .

I understand this in the context of The former soviet union and perhaps Venezuela... but what about Western europe where the governments incorporate a variety of a socialistic principles to governing and spending.....IF what you say holds true than you should be able to demonstrate stats that the lower classes are expanding while the middle class is disintegrating in these nations.

Only in socialist countries which pander to the working poor, does the government undermine the middle class in favor of reattributing their wealth to the less wealthy... An Example off the top of my head is in Venezuela. They have some government programs which take away land from family farms and give meager acreage to the poor to farm.

The military is a socialist organization. We should disband that.
We should also disband our fire departments and federal mail system.
Everything that we spend taxes on should go.

if you would all please direct your attention to the last of the three commercials here

Originally Posted by Soros

I understand this in the context of The former soviet union and perhaps Venezuela... but what about Western europe where the governments incorporate a variety of a socialistic principles to governing and spending.....IF what you say holds true than you should be able to demonstrate stats that the lower classes are expanding while the middle class is disintegrating in these nations.

Only in socialist countries which pander to the working poor, does the government undermine the middle class in favor of reattributing their wealth to the less wealthy... An Example off the top of my head is in Venezuela. They have some government programs which take away land from family farms and give meager acreage to the poor to farm.

Originally Posted by Invader

The military is a socialist organization. We should disband that.
We should also disband our fire departments and federal mail system.
Everything that we spend taxes on should go.

Please take note of the title of this topic, the comments made are in direct reflection to this, not the circumstances surrounding other nations.

I would agree that there are ways to succesfully incorporate socialistic themes into society, however whats being done in my own country is not such an example.
Here you have a capatalistic economy, and the foundations of our government being undermined to accomodate socialistic programs of redistribution of wealth, which differ from general public services such as fire departments, police departments, the military, the mail system, etc etc.

The reality is that the foundation of your nation, as a whole, is horribly backwards and old, and it cannot function in the modern western world, because the rest of us have moved on to something better.

Stop being a patriot about what your country is built on, because what it is built on is something that was written a couple hundred years ago and hey, it worked back then, but not anymore. Rewriting the constitution is ofcourse not something you just do like that, it requires progress, slow progress. Take your new healthcare system as a start, then move on from there. You might actually start to see less people dying in the streets.

I thought Universal Mind, myself, and Laughing Man had wreaked havoc on socialist thought here. I guess I was wrong .

Originally Posted by Marvo

The reality is that the foundation of your nation, as a whole, is horribly backwards and old, and it cannot function in the modern western world, because the rest of us have moved on to something better.

Stop being a patriot about what your country is built on, because what it is built on is something that was written a couple hundred years ago and hey, it worked back then, but not anymore. Rewriting the constitution is ofcourse not something you just do like that, it requires progress, slow progress. Take your new healthcare system as a start, then move on from there. You might actually start to see less people dying in the streets.

What's wrong with the constitution?

Originally Posted by Soros

What's wrong with the constitution?

It doesn't allow a good model of healthcare, for one.

Originally Posted by Marvo

It doesn't allow a good model of healthcare, for one.

Demonstrate to me using quotes from the constitution how it is opposed to socialized medicine.

In other words, where's the evidence?

Well, I doubt it's written anywhere directly. I'm just basing this off of everybody raging on about how the new healthcare system completely contradicts essential parts of the constitution. I just took their word for it.

Those are just some peoples opinions.

If healthcare was fundamentally at odds with the constitution, do you think that health care legislation would have a hope in hell of passing even though it is most likely going to?(Granted the patriot act was passed ...)

Hasn't it been passed already, or have I misunderstood something?

I don't know, I haven't been paying much attention to the news lately.

Originally Posted by Invader

The military is a socialist organization. We should disband that.
We should also disband our fire departments and federal mail system.
Everything that we spend taxes on should go.

They would all work much better if they were privatized.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

They would all work much better if they were privatized.

But they would be very expensive for the common man without government subsidies.

Originally Posted by Soros

But they would be very expensive for the common man without government subsidies.

So you theorize that a monopoly on a good or service actually leads to the lowering of its price?

Originally Posted by Soros

Those are just some peoples opinions.

If healthcare was fundamentally at odds with the constitution, do you think that health care legislation would have a hope in hell of passing even though it is most likely going to?(Granted the patriot act was passed ...)

Because the government would never do anything that contradicts the very thing that is suppose to limit its power? What a naive faith.

Originally Posted by Marvo

The reality is that the foundation of your nation, as a whole, is horribly backwards and old, and it cannot function in the modern western world, because the rest of us have moved on to something better.

Stop being a patriot about what your country is built on, because what it is built on is something that was written a couple hundred years ago and hey, it worked back then, but not anymore. Rewriting the constitution is ofcourse not something you just do like that, it requires progress, slow progress. Take your new healthcare system as a start, then move on from there. You might actually start to see less people dying in the streets.

Our constitution is a timeless work of art, One that has survived several wars including a civil war, multiple major societal changes, and one which is functioning in the western world right now. In fact, there likely wouldnt be much of the modern western world you see today if it were not for this nation, its people, and its constitution. Our patriots and their blood paid for and handed you back your country in 1945 like it or not, so dont talk patriotism to me. How many nations on this earth have endured as ours has and gone through similar duress without major changes to the institution of their government in the same time period?

The only thing that is truly backwards and old is corruption. UM is right of course, government services would work much more effeciently if they were run outside of government hands on control. As such there would be less room and opportunity for corruption. Our healthcare system is not nearly as bad as the media perverts it to be. In fact it is right up there on the leading edge as far as services offered. Cost and lack of access due to those costs is the only real problem. As others have stated in other topics, the costs can be brought down in a number of ways , first and foremost( as also pointed to by others) would be to severely limit liability. Until that is done there is no real point in moving on with other methods to fix it. My question would be just how much liability do socialist state run and state employed hospitals and doctors face? I'm sure those governments protect and limit the liability. Our own government here could easily do the same for our system while still leaving it in private hands. The same can be said of industry as well. Corruption of the individuals in government is what is our problem, not corruption of the system iof government tself.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Our constitution is a timeless work of art, One that has survived several wars including a civil war, multiple major societal changes, and one which is functioning in the western world right now. In fact, there likely wouldnt be much of the modern western world you see today if it were not for this nation, its people, and its constitution. Our patriots and their blood paid for and handed you back your country in 1945 like it or not, so dont talk patriotism to me. How many nations on this earth have endured as ours has and gone through similar duress without major changes to the institution of their government in the same time period?
.

Talk about a love affair with a piece of paper. Question if the constitution actually did survive if a portion of the country who no longer agreed to live by it had it forcibly applied to it. Then again, the constitution was established as a document whose goal was to increase centralized power and develop an overarching federal system. So if you look at it like that then yes, the constitution has done its job of establishing a base head for future federal intervention into the liberty of individuals. However, if you look in terms of social power [ liberty, voluntary exchange, liberalism ] then the constitution is clearly the negation of such a power. It is political power [ coercion, subjugation ]. We have here a great example of Albert J Nock's view of human history. A race between social power on the one hand, and political [ state ] power on the other.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Talk about a love affair with a piece of paper. Question if the constitution actually did survive if a portion of the country who no longer agreed to live by it had it forcibly applied to it. Then again, the constitution was established as a document whose goal was to increase centralized power and develop an overarching federal system. So if you look at it like that then yes, the constitution has done its job of establishing a base head for future federal intervention into the liberty of individuals. However, if you look in terms of social power [ liberty, voluntary exchange, liberalism ] then the constitution is clearly the negation of such a power. It is political power [ coercion, subjugation ]. We have here a great example of Albert J Nock's view of human history. A race between social power on the one hand, and political [ state ] power on the other.

Citations?

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Our constitution is a timeless work of art, One that has survived several wars including a civil war, multiple major societal changes, and one which is functioning in the western world right now. In fact, there likely wouldnt be much of the modern western world you see today if it were not for this nation, its people, and its constitution. Our patriots and their blood paid for and handed you back your country in 1945 like it or not, so dont talk patriotism to me.

That's an invalid argument. History would have turned out in a different way if the US had not developed in the way that it had.

How many nations on this earth have endured as ours has and gone through similar duress without major changes to the institution of their government in the same time period?

Yes, your constitution has done a great job. What I'm saying is that it is obsolete for a modern world, like the one the rest of the western world is living in right now. That's simply my impression.

Originally Posted by ClouD

Citations?

Citations concerning? I dispensed a small bit of knowledge but you still have to be specific.

Originally Posted by NonDualistic

The reality and mechanics of socialism is towards the destruction of a societies middle class, the expansion of the lower class, and the creation of a gap between the lower and upper classes so that no vertical movement upwards from the bottom can be achieved .

Yeah, right.

Go learn hat socialism is.