Thread: The Nonreligious Are More Intelligent

this is pretty much the same as Christians are more moral then athiest thread over in R/S

I would also rather be the person I am today then to be brilliant and not have God in my life.
I may not be the smartest person in the world but I have a great job, i have a great wife and I have a great daughter. We make planty of money and want for nothing. And I owe that all to God and all the blessings he has given me...

Originally Posted by davej

this is pretty much the same as Christians are more moral then athiest thread over in R/S

These are from numerous peer reviewed and scientific journals. How are any of th biased or problematic? You are not actually saying anything here but demonstrating negligence.

Originally Posted by davej

I would also rather be the person I am today then to be brilliant and not have God in my life.
I may not be the smartest person in the world but I have a great job, i have a great wife and I have a great daughter. We make planty of money and want for nothing. And I owe that all to God and all the blessings he has given me...

Do you think that the nonreligious cannot have a great job, great wife, great family? Do you not think that people of every denomination feel just as passionate/delusional as you?

Either way the point remains - religious people are not as intelligent.

~

it came out of a scientific journal so it must be right.....
I didn't say that others couldn't have a great life. I said that i did and i wouldn't trade what i have and my faith to be "smarter".
Just because a person is a Christian or of any other religion does not mean they can't learn. it is if they believe it or not. basically what you are saying is that something shuts the brain off inside a religious person to where they can not learn. so are you saying that someone of religion doesn't have the functioning brain to learn? i don't want to assume you are saying something you are not.

and by the way, a statement like this

Either way the point remains - religious people are not as intelligent.

is just as bad as if i were to say white people are more intelligent then black
*i don't believe that by the way*

I find it interesting

that if you switch it around, and say "less intelligent people are more religious"

SUDDENLY

it's somewhat less offensive-seeming.

It didn't offend me ha ha... i just think it is ironic how everyone got their feather ruffled over in the religious are more moral thread but then i turn around and see a post like this.

Originally Posted by davej

It didn't offend me ha ha... i just think it is ironic how everyone got their feather ruffled over in the religious are more moral thread but then i turn around and see a post like this.

the thang is, that post had one (1) source and the people surveyed could have quite easily been lying about what they did. Would you tell a random surveyer you're cheating on your wife? What if the information got out? What if you were supposedly an upstanding member of the community except for your secret blackjack habit

why would you divulge something like that to anybody except maybe your psychologist?

------

Anyway, I'd argue that you may not have total correlation = causation going here.

Do you have the importance of family and tradition for each country?

Is this actually about religious belief, or is it about acceptance of evolutionary theory? quite a difference

First of all, you should be applauded on a well thought out, well researched argument. In response to the title, I doubt it. In some cases intelligence and the ability to reason will inevitably lead to atheism, but there are billions of exceptionally intelligent people who firmly believe in religion, this being due to the power of brainwashing a young child. Thus, I would say that location and upbringing are the primary influences in wether a child grows up to be religious or not. That being said, as we develop out abilities to think critically and reason using logic I imagine atheism will continue to rise. So I'd be happy to conclude that higher intelligence increases the probability of atheism in an individual, but not that atheists are more intelligent.
That's just my take on it.

That's kinda fun, though to be honest I would have guessed. But is it that less intelligent people are more prone to religion, or is it that religion itself makes people more stupid?

Originally Posted by davej

is just as bad as if i were to say white people are more intelligent then black
*i don't believe that by the way*

If there was a scientific, unbiased study that researched the matter thoroughly and reached that conclusion, then it wouldn't be "bad". It would simply be the way things are.

Again basically you are saying that religious people can't learn. that is a really ignorant statement.

Originally Posted by davej

Again basically you are saying that religious people can't learn. that is a really ignorant statement.

Where did I say that?

Pointless thread kinda. I don't care what views are correlated to whichever group of people. I make a judgement based on the validity of the views themselves.

Although of course in the case of religion I think that the views are baseless.

Originally Posted by davej

it came out of a scientific journal so it must be right.....
I didn't say that others couldn't have a great life. I said that i did and i wouldn't trade what i have and my faith to be "smarter".
Just because a person is a Christian or of any other religion does not mean they can't learn. it is if they believe it or not. basically what you are saying is that something shuts the brain off inside a religious person to where they can not learn. so are you saying that someone of religion doesn't have the functioning brain to learn? i don't want to assume you are saying something you are not.

If I cannot use scientific journals to support an argument, then what should I use? You are not giving any substantial points here that either of us can work on.

The charts are not depicting a chart where atheists suddenly have a larger IQ and the religious have an IQ dropped below retarded. Are you ignoring the fact that I have provided evidence that the religious still have a relatively high IQ?

Also, I am arguing that there is something in the religious mind that is not as active as the non-religious; ACH thinking. Did you not read my post? The religious have significant difficulty in ACH thinking in comparison to nonreligious. I have provided the evidence, if you will not accept it, then what could I possibly provide that you would? Or is this really being closed-minded in disguise..?

Originally Posted by davej

and by the way, a statement like this

is just as bad as if i were to say white people are more intelligent then black
*i don't believe that by the way*

Of course you do not, but I have provided actual evidence for this. I am not saying that the religious are suddenly retarded or something; I still give room for their high IQ. Although I have provided evidence that Atheists are generally smarter. It is correlated with ACH thinking and the acceptance of evolution.

Originally Posted by davej

It didn't offend me ha ha... i just think it is ironic how everyone got their feather ruffled over in the religious are more moral thread but then i turn around and see a post like this.

If you review my past threads, you will see that I have mentioned these points far before the morality thread.

Originally Posted by lseadragon

Anyway, I'd argue that you may not have total correlation = causation going here.

Do you have the importance of family and tradition for each country?

Is this actually about religious belief, or is it about acceptance of evolutionary theory? quite a difference

Of course, this is not cum hoc ergo propter hoc where we would ideally search for post hoc ergo propter hoc. However, this does not negate the relationship and that correlation always gives a strong hint.

There is the obvious inclination that the lifestyle of a country can lead to the acceptance of evolution and religious beliefs. Perhaps we ought to explore the educational systems in relation to all these.

But I have taken that into account for the USA's outliar in the religiosity graph. Due to policies keeping religion out of education, it is very difficult to find a direct causation case study because there does not really exist any more specific data than this.

Originally Posted by davej

Again basically you are saying that religious people can't learn. that is a really ignorant statement.

I am saying religious people are significantly less capable at ACH thinking (which, ironically, you are demonstrating right now) than the nonreligious. It is not ignorant because I have actually proven it. The one being ignorant is actually you for not providing any substantial criticism. If I were just blatantly stating, "Durrr yeah religious pppl are dumb, lolz" then yes, I would be being ignorant. However, I have actually researched this and given evidence. Make sure to pay attention to the fact that I am not saying that religiousness=stupid, but a significant less capability than the nonreligious at certain aspects of the IQ test (ie. ACH thinking and episodic memory, as illustrated in the links).

Originally Posted by Xei

Pointless thread kinda. I don't care what views are correlated to whichever group of people. I make a judgement based on the validity of the views themselves.

Although of course in the case of religion I think that the views are baseless.

There is not any judging going on here with the data. It is simply that Raven's and Weschler IQ tests demonstrate a significant difference in IQ scores across races and religiosity.

Furthermore, I just took an extra step to explore the idea of evolutions acceptance. That point is weak, in my view, and simply an addition for discussions sake. The rest, however, is concrete.

~

Congrats on a nicely-compiled, well-though-out thread, with actual facts and trustworthy statistics to back up your claims!

One could debate that IQ is based on scientific understanding?

The AmazingAtheist said it best:



EDIT: Why will this embed not work?


Link

To better represent this, we can see the highly educated peoples beliefs in God rise over time.

Your hand may have slipped up somewhere!

And as for this:



Why is the belief for immortality dropping? The human lifespan increases as time
progresses and new breakthroughs are made, I was under the impression that it was rather
popularly believed that we would eventually overcome natural death.

Originally Posted by ClouD

One could debate that IQ is based on scientific understanding?

Our IQ tests require basic reasoning skills, and not so much the understanding of
scientific concepts. There's a section that measure's one's capacity for visual/spatial
problems, for example.


@Black_Eagle

You was to be using the forward slash ( / ) in the end of your tag.

In order to examine the validity of your assessment, we need to examine the validity of the variables you've examined and the perceived correlation between them.

Intelligence quotent is determined through standardized tests that typically measure spatial awareness, linear and verbal reasoning and rational problem solving. They do this with various visual, linguistic and arithmetical puzzles. The tests are designed by scientists and are inherently scientific in nature. For the most part, they measure the so called "left brain" rational and linear brain functions.

Basically what you are saying is that there is a correllation between Scientific, or materialistic minded people and their ability to score highly on a test that is meant to test rational and linear thought processes.

Religious beliefs usually coincide with the more non-linear intuitive thought processes, so it would seem to make sense that someone who leans more in the direction of religious belief would be less likely to score highly on a test of reasoning.

It seems that all you've managed to show is that the average human tends to lean either towards reason or intuition, and that most people do not have a balance between the two.

I'd also like to point out that all of the correllative studies you cited have been done by scientists who more than likely are not particularly religious. I'm sure with the proper bias someone could come up with some good looking graphs showing a correllation between some perceived measure of intelligence and religious belief.

Edit: Is your source the article in Skeptic? Don't you think a magazine dedicated to not believing in anything is a just a bit too biased for a balanced judgement of beliefs in general?

I also thought of a few more holes in the theory. The available religions in the global society are stereotypically dogmatic and unyielding which is by definition opposed to critical thinking which is what you are comparing here. There are many people who believe that there is or may be something more than what materialism has to offer but do not believe in any of the established Religions. These people tend to associate more with Atheism especially since many people seem to believe that agnosticism is a subset of atheism.

Originally Posted by Invader

Your hand may have slipped up somewhere!

Oh you are right, I made a typo lol.

Why is the belief for immortality dropping? The human lifespan increases as time
progresses and new breakthroughs are made, I was under the impression that it was rather
popularly believed that we would eventually overcome natural death.

I am not sure. Although it is not really pertinent to the point, I did not really look into what "immortality" they are speaking of.

Our IQ tests require basic reasoning skills, and not so much the understanding of
scientific concepts. There's a section that measure's one's capacity for visual/spatial
problems, for example.

I will address this simultaneously with Xaqaria's.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Intelligence quotent is determined through standardized tests that typically measure spatial awareness, linear and verbal reasoning and rational problem solving. They do this with various visual, linguistic and arithmetical puzzles. The tests are designed by scientists and are inherently scientific in nature. For the most part, they measure the so called "left brain" rational and linear brain functions.

The IQ tests were utilizing the Raven's similarities tests and Wechsler IQ tests (WAIS).

In regards to the WAIS:

"Verbal Scales
Information: Range of knowledge
Comprehension: Judgement
Arithmetic: Concentration
Similarities: Abstract thinking
Digit Span: memory, anxiety
Vocabulary: Vocabulary level
Letter-Number-
Sequencing

Performance Scales
Digit Symbol: Visual-motor functioning
Picture Completion: Attention to detail
Picture Arrangement: Planning ability
Block Design: Nonverbal reasoning
Object Assembly: Analysis of part-whole relationships
Matrix Reasoning
Symbol Search

Each subtest has a scaled score of 10 with a SD of 3.






Reliability Information:

Test-Retest: Done for two age groups 25-34 and 45-54. Given in a 2 to 7 week interval. Reliability coefficient ranges from a low of .67 (Object Assembly 45-54) to a high of .94 (Information 45-54). VIQ = .94 (25-34) and .97 (45-54). PIQ = .89 (25-34) and .90 (45-54). FIQ = .95 (25-34) and .96 (45-54)

Split-Half: Spearman-Brown for all subtests except for Digit Span and Digit Symbol for age ranges from 16-17 to 70-74. Reliability coefficient ranges from a low of .52 (Object Assembly 16-17) to a high of .96 (Vocabulary across many of the age ranges). VIQ = .97. PIQ = .93. FIQ = .97.

Alternate-Form: none given

Interitem Consistency: not done. However, correlations between subtests (intrasubtest) and VIQ, PIQ, and FIQ are given but a Cronbach Alpha was not done.

Inter-Rater: not applicable


Standard Error of Measurement: each subtest has a SEM a low of .49 (Vocabulary 16-17) and high of 1.91 (Object Assembly 16-17). Average SEM were VIQ 2.74, PIQ 4.14, and FIQ 2.53


Validity Information:

Face Validity: has face validity

Content Validity: has content validity

Criterion-Related Validity: with academic success, tests of achievement, and formal education

Construct Validity: convergence with similar IQ measures, no divergence given

Standardization:

Size and Composition of the Standardized Sample: 2,450 people comprised the standardization sample reflecting ages 16-89
Describe the Sampling Procedures: Stratified Random Sampling based on the most current census data.

Administration Procedures: individual administration procedure, should be done by a trained evaluator.

Scoring: is done by hand by the evaluator

Interpretation: guidelines for interpreting each interval of scores is given: very superior - mentally retarded.

Comments:

Appropriate Client Use: people for whom the test was standardized. It is a test of intelligence so caution should be used when interpreting it for occupations, education, and training.

Appropriate for Which Groups of People with Disabilities: generally those people who would not fall into the categories below.

Groups of People with Disabilities not Appropriate: people who were institutionalized for mental illness, people with traumatic brain injuries, people with severe behavioral or emotional problems, people with physical impairments which restrict responses to test items, people whose primary language is other than English."
+ http://books.google.ca/books?hl=en&l...Nh4ENB42OVHgcE

As for the Raven's similarities test:
+ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven's...ssive_Matrices
+ http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...558f47dc222ade

These tests utilize more than what you have limited the frame to. Do not be so quick to ignore the full dynamic of these tests.

Basically what you are saying is that there is a correllation between Scientific, or materialistic minded people and their ability to score highly on a test that is meant to test rational and linear thought processes.

Religious beliefs usually coincide with the more non-linear intuitive thought processes, so it would seem to make sense that someone who leans more in the direction of religious belief would be less likely to score highly on a test of reasoning.

No. You did not read what I said. ACH thinking is not rational and linear thought processes and this is where we find the significance that I am focusing upon.

It seems that all you've managed to show is that the average human tends to lean either towards reason or intuition, and that most people do not have a balance between the two.

You are making prejudice remarks on these IQ tests; they test a lot more than this. Please consider the above to elaborate on the depths of ACH thinking.

I'd also like to point out that all of the correllative studies you cited have been done by scientists who more than likely are not particularly religious. I'm sure with the proper bias someone could come up with some good looking graphs showing a correllation between some perceived measure of intelligence and religious belief.

That is simply speculation. You have not provided any grounds for bias.

Furthermore, most of these cited articles are peer-reviewed and confounding.

Edit: Is your source the article in Skeptic? Don't you think a magazine dedicated to not believing in anything is a just a bit too biased for a balanced judgement of beliefs in general?

I already said, at the very beginning of my post, that I read an article by Dr. James Allan Cheyne. You cannot possibly argue that it is a bias because that just shows your ignorance to the magazine. The magazine has reverends writing and several people of faith. Furthermore, the last months magazine focused entirely on Christian origins conspiracy theories (that being the defense of Christianity against Atheists bombardment of conspiracies regarding religious conjuration.)
+ http://www.skeptic.com/the_magazine/.../vol15n01.html

I also thought of a few more holes in the theory. The available religions in the global society are stereotypically dogmatic and unyielding which is by definition opposed to critical thinking which is what you are comparing here. There are many people who believe that there is or may be something more than what materialism has to offer but do not believe in any of the established Religions. These people tend to associate more with Atheism especially since many people seem to believe that agnosticism is a subset of atheism.

So, in your first point, it just demonstrates that you are ignoring ACH thinking, which is not specifically critical thinking.

Also, it is a good point to say that Atheism is a implied by other beliefs. I mean, I do not explicitly consider my self Atheist but Humanist Existential. Thus, it is a bit misleading to even say that Atheism itself, alone, is a religious or belief doctrine itself. I think the idea is that, those doctrines that imply or include Atheism, are correlated with higher IQ (as those all encompassing beliefs integrate ACH thinking as opposed to direct dogmatic beliefs).

What do you think..?

~

It is already known that being religious or spiritual is the work of the right brain. IQ tests on the other hand, is the product of the left brain.

Don't you think that an argument that atheists are more intelligent, is an argument that religious or spiritual individuals are inferior?

Did you think the need to feel superior above others is something unique? Haven't we seen these kinds of arguments in the past, about who is and who isn't superior? Haven't these arguments been backed up by so called "logical" information? .......................Haven't they always led to the suffering of another human being?

I'll give you small hint. left brain intelligence.

right brain........................wisdom

What do we get with super high intelligence without wisdom??? We get imperialism, dictatorship, communism, racism, genocides, unspeakable experiments, global warming, mass extinction, weapons of mass destruction, and millions of dollars poured into science for the sake of science instead of the sake of humanity

I'd rather be a whole brain than half brain

But if I had to be half a brain, then I'd gladly choose to be a retard who still understood that the worth and measure of a human being can not be measured with numbers and graphs

Juroara, you did not read my post then. Firs of all, left/right brain psycholgy is a myth propogated by laymen - not academics.

Second of all, I included the type of broad abstract categorical and hypthetical thinking; ACH thinking is where the significant difference is and atheists score higher.

Furthermore, you use the word wisdom but don't define it. I suppose wisdom, to you, is being faithful. Considering you have no other substance I. Your argumet, that is the only presumption that can be made.

From your demonstration of ignorance to the WAIS IQ tests and conjecture of wisdom, I can tell that what you have said was said out of desperation rather than contemplative thought.

Ironic that your post actually supports the main point and proves yourself e
wrong.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

Juroara, you did not read my post then. Firs of all, left/right brain psycholgy is a myth propogated by laymen - not academics.

Second of all, I included the type of broad abstract categorical and hypthetical thinking; ACH thinking is where the significant difference is and atheists score higher.

Furthermore, you use the word wisdom but don't define it. I suppose wisdom, to you, is being faithful. Considering you have no other substance I. Your argumet, that is the only presumption that can be made.

From your demonstration of ignorance to the WAIS IQ tests and conjecture of wisdom, I can tell that what you have said was said out of desperation rather than contemplative thought.

Ironic that your post actually supports the main point and proves yourself e
wrong.

~

thank you


you have proven my point as well

My post clealry illustrates your complete misunderstanding of the point and content and you think I have proven left/right brain pseudo-science? Ok, how?

I think responses like juroara ought to be referenced for the inability to commit ACH thinking as juroara is utterly stubborn to the idea.

~

It almost seems as if people who are more religious/spiritual have a tendency to be somewhat anti-intellectual. Perhaps that has something to do with all this...I mean, look:

it came out of a scientific journal so it must be right.....

I'd gladly choose to be a retard who still understood that the worth and measure of a human being can not be measured with numbers and graphs and science oh my!

What do we get with super high intelligence without wisdom??? We get imperialism, dictatorship, communism, racism, genocides, unspeakable experiments, global warming, mass extinction, weapons of mass destruction, and millions of dollars poured into science for the sake of science instead of the sake of humanity

I don't think that religious/spiritual people are born with less intelligence (on average), it has more to do with being raised to think a certain way, which often leads to misplaced skepticism.

Originally Posted by O'nus

My post clealry illustrates your complete misunderstanding of the point and content and you think I have proven left/right brain pseudo-science? Ok, how?

I think responses like juroara ought to be referenced for the inability to commit ACH thinking as juroara is utterly stubborn to the idea.

~

I'm ignorant and stubborn! please tell me what else I am o'nus?

go ahead..judge me