Thread: They Finally Found Their Excuse To Attack Iran?

Originally Posted by Neruo

lol.

Good luck trying to leave there without 'losing'. You already lost.

Funny that you still think America has/will achieve victory, since even most Americans don't believe that bullshit anymore. And to me, that says A LOT.
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The Hussein regime is still in power? There is no new government in its place? The new government will never be able to survive without us there to protect it? Keep hoping it won't. Maybe you will get lucky.

Originally Posted by Universal

The Hussein regime is still in power? There is no new government in its place? The new government will never be able to survive without us there to protect it? Keep hoping it won't. Maybe you will get lucky.
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A) Arn't you one of those people that 3 years ago were CERTAIN things would be better by now?

B) Congratz, you got saddam away. Now you have gained... err... err....

haliburton stocks... and... errrrr... eeerrrr...... a lot of fun from making fun of bush inc.?

Originally Posted by Neruo

A) Arn't you one of those people that 3 years ago were CERTAIN things would be better by now?

B) Congratz, you got saddam away. Now you have gained... err... err....

haliburton stocks... and... errrrr... eeerrrr...... a lot of fun from making fun of bush inc.?
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Voting rights? The possibility of freedom for the rest of history? A government that is not genocidal or an international terrorist organization with a history of WMD terrorism? A few benefits. But those are always unfortunate. Maybe some day the Iraqis too can use the internet in large numbers to constantly bash the country that saved theirs and would do it again, despite the disgusting lack of gratitude for what people have gone through for them.

Originally Posted by Universal

Voting rights? The possibility of freedom for the rest of history? A government that is not genocidal or an international terrorist organization with a history of WMD terrorism? A few benefits. But those are always unfortunate. Maybe some day the Iraqis too can use the internet in large numbers to constantly bash the country that saved theirs and would do it again, despite the disgusting lack of gratitude for what people have gone through for them.
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I am glad the people in Iraq are happy, free, living in rainbow-sprinkled happy-bunny-lands with candy EveryWhere!

Originally Posted by Neruo

I am glad the people in Iraq are happy, free, living in rainbow-sprinkled happy-bunny-lands with candy EveryWhere!
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A country's transition phase from a genocidal, terrorist dictatorship is the true test of the entirety of its future.

Yes, getting Saddam out of power was a good thing, I think everyone can agree on that. But there's just no way to say if it was good in the long run. Now, we have a situation that is steadily degenerating, and basically already in, a full scale civil war. Is that better than what there was? Now, a Shi'ite majority might dominate a Sunni minority. After many years of horrible oppression, there is no doubt that horrible things will start happening to Sunnis. The 22% of the people in Iraq who voted no when it came to the new constitution were almost exclusively Sunni. If our goal was toppling Saddam, and that's it, then yeah, mission accomplished. Victory. But its doesn't seem entirely clear that this is going to lead to a "better" Iraq. The situation in the middle east is EXTREMELY complicated and I don't think it is right to say that just because we toppled an opressive dictator and installed a government with laughable power that this is clearly the best route that Iraq could have gone.

Originally Posted by 3FLryan

Yes, getting Saddam out of power was a good thing, I think everyone can agree on that. But there's just no way to say if it was good in the long run. Now, we have a situation that is steadily degenerating, and basically already in, a full scale civil war. Is that better than what there was? Now, a Shi'ite majority might dominate a Sunni minority. After many years of horrible oppression, there is no doubt that horrible things will start happening to Sunnis. The 22% of the people in Iraq who voted no when it came to the new constitution were almost exclusively Sunni. If our goal was toppling Saddam, and that's it, then yeah, mission accomplished. Victory. But its doesn't seem entirely clear that this is going to lead to a "better" Iraq. The situation in the middle east is EXTREMELY complicated and I don't think it is right to say that just because we toppled an opressive dictator and installed a government with laughable power that this is clearly the best route that Iraq could have gone.
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It will take a long time for the real results to show, but I think that we have most likely put them on the right path. Those people vote in higher percentages than we do, despite death threats. Think about that. That is how strong the spirit for freedom is. They now have a taste of it, and I think the will for freedom will win out in the end. Our presence there is making a lot of them uncomfortable and giving them reasons to not push as hard as they would without us there, but I think that when we are gone, a great deal of the country is going to say, "This is our little window in history to make freedom work. Let's make this happen!"

The Shiites and the Sunnis will have problems with each other for a long time, maybe even for decades or centuries to come. However, the more advanced and civilized a country gets, the less that type of violence tends to happen. The more democracy allows businesses to grow and general self esteem with it, and the more education spreads, the more advanced and civilized Iraq will get. The same is true of Afghanistan. If they can maintain the freedom and keep the government from becoming theocratic or a dictatorship, the country will succeed greatly. It's going to come down to how bad the average Iraqi wants freedom for his/her country. I am optimistic on that. The suicide bomber, religiously fanatical, pro-oppression mentality is something that comes with poverty and lack of civilization. The more that can be cured, the more the pro-oppression can be cured. I know how bad all of us in this forum would want freedom. I think it's a large part of human nature. My bet is that it will win.

It happened with Rome, it happened with Britain,
I think it's happening with America...
the first stumbling steps into Empire.

Originally Posted by Neruo

since even most Americans don't believe that bullshit anymore. And to me, that says A LOT.
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That is because they are upset over a tiny number of 3000 American deaths.

I can't see how Iraq is not a victory. The U.S. has conquered it, and at a low cost for being a war. When the new government is established they will probably be in control of another badass ally other than Isreal in the Middle East.

Originally Posted by Universal

That is how strong the spirit for freedom is. They now have a taste of it, and I think the will for freedom will win out in the end. [/b]

I've said it a few times in other forums

but Democracy needs a populus of educated and well informed people to run without corruption and without the many becoming subserviant to the few. An intellectual approach needs to be taken and there is definately not good soil for growth in the middle east.

You cannot just transplant democracy and say "well there ya go, 'initiate freedom' " it just does not work that way. A people must want to be heard and have their voice count.
In the middle east there are already so many down-trodden and confused individuals (men, women and indoctrinated children) that democracy would simply not work.

It would be like taking a child who has lived in a dark closet his whole life and placing him into a schoolyard of already "well-adjusted" children who have the capabilities to interact, communicate and understand the aspects of inter-relational contact. That child would be such an outcast in the world of those who have already lived in 'normality' and have a good grip on what the system they live in is all about.
The other children would take advantage of and distort that childs mind.
The people of Iraw and the mid east are not ready to have this thing called democracy pushed upon them and expect them to all understand and participate fully and intellectualy like those few in the west.

If we can hardly get it right here, then why would it work somewhere clearly already at such a noticible disadvantage?

Middle East = Highly unstable.

If you put weight on one side of the scale (Iraq), the other side will rise into the air of international crisis. If you go to destroy the other side of the scale (Iran), than the other side will rise up. The only solution is to have two (2) U.S. armies in both countries. But doing that would trip and even larger scale with the Middle East on the left and the Orient on the right, and Korea and China would get angry because we own their oil. So now we have four (4) U.S. armies in Iran, Iraq, Korea, and China. An even larger scale with the Middle East + Orient on the right will cause Europe to rise up saying "You have too much power U.S.", and then Great Britain will invade and capture the U.S., and make them colonies again.

The End.

Originally Posted by Conforming

You cannot just transplant democracy and say "well there ya go, 'initiate freedom' " it just does not work that way. A people must want to be heard and have their voice count.
In the middle east there are already so many down-trodden and confused individuals (men, women and indoctrinated children) that democracy would simply not work.
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For this reason, as well as Arachanox's predictions, the only way forward is for the U.S. to either:

A) Abandon all this foreign conquest or

B)Just be upfront and admit that it's imperialistic, to unabashedly say: "Democracy is ok for us because we're advanced but all you non-democratic countries aren't erady for it yet so we're going to have to rule you like naughty children until you've matured enough to rule yourselves

I honestly believe that the only way to initiate a single political system (even democracy) worldwide is at the undemocratic end of a gun.

If the U.S. people can't stomach that then they should force their government to abandon the whole idea now.

While we're all bitching at each other and trying to find a solution that will make us feel warm and happy inside - this is politics, every method is going to make you feel a little soiled - Iran will be getting more dangerous.

Screw transplating a democratical system over in their country (Iraq showed us that doesn't exactly work, or if it does, it's taking a long time). They need to be hit over the head with a very large plank, and they need to be hit over the head with it hard. Unless you guys really think that even the slightest possibility of another nuclear warhead, nuclear bomb, nuclear whatever the hell in the world or basically just another method of killing everyone is actually going to make things better somehow.

I rather expect something to happen here. It's no good asking Iran, "are you building a nuclear warhead or something" and getting a response like "so what if we are?". That doesn't make me sleep at night, and I doubt it will make any (sane) government feel exactly comfortable either.

Originally Posted by Alban

For this reason, as well as Arachanox's predictions, the only way forward is for the U.S. to either:

A) Abandon all this foreign conquest or

B)Just be upfront and admit that it's imperialistic, to unabashedly say: "Democracy is ok for us because we're advanced but all you non-democratic countries aren't erady for it yet so we're going to have to rule you like naughty children until you've matured enough to rule yourselves

I honestly believe that the only way to initiate a single political system (even democracy) worldwide is at the undemocratic end of a gun.

If the U.S. people can't stomach that then they should force their government to abandon the whole idea now.
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Reminds me of Buckley:

"Can I be your king at the point of a gun??"

nice

Originally Posted by Alban

While we're all bitching at each other and trying to find a solution that will make us feel warm and happy inside - this is politics, every method is going to make you feel a little soiled - Iran will be getting more dangerous.

Screw transplating a democratical system over in their country (Iraq showed us that doesn't exactly work, or if it does, it's taking a long time). They need to be hit over the head with a very large plank, and they need to be hit over the head with it hard. Unless you guys really think that even the slightest possibility of another nuclear warhead, nuclear bomb, nuclear whatever the hell in the world or basically just another method of killing everyone is actually going to make things better somehow.

I rather expect something to happen here. It's no good asking Iran, "are you building a nuclear warhead or something" and getting a response like "so what if we are?". That doesn't make me sleep at night, and I doubt it will make any (sane) government feel exactly comfortable either.
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Yeh that is truere Iraq...but
Look at how many nuclear warheads the US has. They are saying, "well, you guys get rid of yours and only after they are all gone will the world be safe....What? Us? Get rid of ours? You gotta be kidding! Who's gonna keep all of you safe and rul...err...sound?"

The United States, and all the other registered holders of nuclear arms, have been cleared as nations who will abstain from actually using them. Frankly, i am sick of people comparing us to a barbaric government like the one in Iran.

And you all are ALWAYS blaming the States. Current terrorism? Eh, its the US's fault. Global warming? Blame the States with all their Chevy Silverados and pockets full of cash. You never entertain the idea that your governments are guilty as well. My government got intel. from many of your governments about Saddam's nuclear development programs. But when shit goes sour, you place the blame on #1.

And the arguments are always the exact goddam opposite. I would say capitalism is the greatest (pretty obvious, right?), whereas some of you might call it the worlds greatest evil. Many of you dont like capitalism because it follows the "you snooze you lose" philosohpy. But i like that. Those who can't cut it "die out", slowly leaving the best. Excuse me for not feeling sorry for a group of people who would rather smoke crack than work.

Lifes a bitch. Dog eat dog world. Some of you havent caught on to it yet. Meh, thats because everything is laid out for you in Europe. Dont they assign you your future job when your like 3 or something?

Originally Posted by Hard

The United States, and all the other registered holders of nuclear arms, have been cleared as nations who will abstain from actually using them. Frankly, i am sick of people comparing us to a barbaric government like the one in Iran.
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I agree with you- no comparison.
I don't like anyone having nukes but I'd far rather the U.S than most others.

Originally Posted by Hard

And you all are ALWAYS blaming the States. Current terrorism? Eh, its the US's fault. Global warming? Blame the States with all their Chevy Silverados and pockets full of cash. You never entertain the idea that your governments are guilty as well. My government got intel. from many of your governments about Saddam's nuclear development programs. But when shit goes sour, you place the blame on #1.
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Rudyard Kipling called it the White Man's Burden, (writing about Amercia in the Philippines I think, interestingly enough.)
Since most of Europe has long given up on great "civilizing " missions, it's pretty much mostly America's burden now:
I'f you're going to be the most powerful and claim the moral highground as well, sorting out the worlds problem areas, you're gonna get blamed for everything even if you do clean the place up a little.

That's the price of being the policeman with the big stick.

Originally Posted by Hard

Dont they assign you your future job when your like 3 or something?
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That's weird.
What Europe was that? The former Societ Bloc?

Never heard of that before and I lived in Europe for ten years- well, that's if you can call the UK Europe.
Sure Europe is maybe a bit more welfare minded, but that doesn't mean it's anti-capitalist. Capitalism was born in Northwest Europe.

The post 1945 Socialist leanings in European governments were partly the result of a continent that had been flattened by a Fascist-instigated war.

Hitler never quite managed to shoot as far as America.