Thread: We Can’t Believe These People

If someone is willing to exaggerate and lie when dicussing their dreams whats to stop them from crossing their fingers behind their backs when taking an oath, or in the forums case blindly click "I Agree" or simply copy & paste the oath without a second thought?

Yea I have to agree with you there for once. There are too many people that come to the boards without the right intentions. There is alot of dishonesty going on and I find the only way to filter is just look for the most complete responses. If someone is going to make a post about their experience they should include every detail they possibly can, anyone who makes up lies to the finest detail seriously has some issues. I hate just as much as you do seeing posts, "I can lucid dream for 5 hours straight", but I just deam them a liar straight away after going through some of their older posts and seeing the quality of what they are saying is just complete rubish. What I think might work is not a declaration, becasue lets be serious here if they're going to lie about their experience, they're not going to loose any sleep over night clicking an "I agree" button. Don't know how it would really work but maybe a rating system that mods would use to rate the quality of the member, or a members only area, dunno just a few ideas, could use this thread to come up with some different methods.

I have to admit, lying here on dreamviews is pretty pathetic in my view. In what do you recieve from this? I came on here to be with other individuals that share some of the views that i do and also meet other people who don't. I have not been here that long but to find that this is how this place really is? The last guy mentioned some kind of rating system? I mean thats not a bad idea but c'mon... We have to do something like this because of certain people lying? This is just ludacris...

I dont think a rating system for the 'quality' of certain members is a good idea.
This would lead people into more glamour illusion. The illusion is already strong enough without adding to it.

Honesty is basic to me. The problem is not the lack of ethical codes agreements or instructions. Just the spiritual ignorance in general that leads to these sort of problems.

Leo wrote....

we need to throw out these Moderators whom we now know for certain we cannot trust. [/b]

I do not know about anyone else but I certainly do not know this for certain. I am skeptical that all the moderators cannot be trusted and should be thrown out. Currently I have alot more respect for them, then to believe something like this. I admit I do not know them very well yet. The least is to respect the positions and realize it requires more effort and time and dedication.

I would encourage the best possible system for choosing the moderators to make sure we have people in there that have excellent judgment, and that suit the position best, and also that members at DV are happy with collectivily and who they trust.

Re: leo's post:

I honestly cannot see the problem with people endorsing Casteneda's writings. Sure he made some (a lot) of things up, but he got things right too. Many lucid dreamers from back in the day (probably some here) benefited from his advice - for example his method of knowing you are dreaming by looking at your hands. Works for me, probably worked for people back then too. Noone is exposed to that idea through Casteneda anymore, but noone back when he was writing had access to forums like this. You may not agree with how he chose to make money, but you can't deny he has been of some help to some people.

You bring up the problem of a "culture of lies" here at dreamviews, suggesting it is such a problem we should have to take an honesty oath. How you took the leap from Casteneda to this is beyond me, but anyway. You say we should no sensationalisation, no exaggeration. Yet both are usually subjectively viewed. You see your post as an expose, others might see it as sensationalism. Certainly that leap from Casteneda --> "culture of lies" is an exaggeration.

This brings up the problem of moderation - who will objectively rate these subjective posts and find some wanting? What will the criteria be? "I can lucid dream for 5 hours straight!" is not necessarily a false post, perhaps the poster is uninformed about the objective/subjective time difference while dreaming. Disciplening them for it would create a hostile environment of this forum.

But of course some people lie. As you said, "I can lucid dream every 5 minutes" is a plain lie. Anyone who stays here for more than 20 minutes should be able to tell that. Why is it a problem if these people delude themselves? Can you not just post - "no you cant, [reason]". Again, disciplening people for these lies brings up some problems. Some claims, when they are originally made, seem so far out they are a lie - "I can control my dreams!" anyone? Stopping sensationalist claims is stopping learning.

Hopefully people are able to discern between truth and lies, and when they cant hopefully people can engage in sensible, mature discourse. Take this thread for example. On a heavily moderated forum this would have been up for 2 minutes before deletion. Now we can have a discussion and hopefully work out your problems. And before you say something like:

...my posts were ‘back-paged’ to the unread sections (perhaps you’ve seen them by mistake when you wanted to click on something else), and then I was warned that I would be banned for bucking the ‘Party Line’. [/b]

One wonders if you have ever been to a moderated forum before. You see these nice headings for each section? One of the jobs of the moderators is to try put discussions in their correct section. As interesting as accusations of ethics and evil are, they belong in extendede discussion or philosophy. Your thread had not fit into general dreaming since page 1.

And for the record: branding people you don't agree with evil doesn't make a good discussion

-spoon

Wow. Long one ...

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>

The most important consideration when evaluating Subjective Phenomena is the Intellectual Integrity and Honesty of those giving their accounts. *When once we find a Culture that glorifies in Sensationalism that is divorced from all appreciation for the Truth, then we have entered a Sci-Fi Page, a Fantasy Page, but definitely NOT a page where we can hope to gain any Real Insights or discover what we can trust are any Real Possibilities.[/b]

Agreed. Well said as well

Originally posted by Extract from the forum rules@

All opinions, techniques, and methods posted at this forum are the sole responsibility of the author of said posts Dreamviews makes no effort to verify any of these postings for correctness, efficacy, or safety. Please use your own judgment when following any suggestions that are posted here. *

The moderators are not here to call people liars or saints.

<!--QuoteBegin-spoon
Hopefully people are able to discern between truth and lies, and when they cant hopefully people can engage in sensible, mature discourse. Take this thread for example. On a heavily moderated forum this would have been up for 2 minutes before deletion. Now we can have a discussion and hopefully work out your problems.
[...]And for the record: branding people you don't agree with evil doesn't make a good discussion

Agreed

Leo get over your disagreement with the staff member you know you are discussing. Just because that person feels differently than you doesn't mean you can sit there and trash talk him. Seriously, get over it and try to treat people with respect whether they feel the same way as you do or not. And as we can see from your posts its pretty obvious that you dislike capitalism because you express such hatred for Carlos Casteneda for making money off of a book. I mean come on, you compared him to Nazis in a previous thread! Also to say that it is the official policy of this page, to stand behind the false teachings of this man is a blatant lie and you know it. For a man as knowledgeable as you I find it even more ridiculous that you would behave in this way. Face it Leo, you just tossed most if not all your credibility out the window. Please take your hatred elsewhere.

For other members reading this, you can find the reasons for Leo starting this thread here: http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic....der=asc&start=0

The thread in which I linked tells a lot about what is going on here so before anyone makes any assumptions I implore you all to read over it.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Oh, and the Warning I was given was rather peculiar. It said that the Rules would not be applied againt \"friends\" but only against people with whom they have a problem.

You little liar. The rules state:

Originally posted by DV Rules
Obviously we'll use discretion in regards to policing this because joking around between friends is certainly permitted. If you have a legitimate complaint about another user, please contact a moderator or administrator.

I have yet to find anything you've said to be \"joking around with friends\" AND I have yet to see you take these matters up with the staff via PMs only, as your flaming seems to be quite prominant in view of the public.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Selective Justice...etc

I just have to laugh when people bring up politics in forums as if we're running a democracy here. Don't like the way things are run? Tough turkey tits, leave or start your own forum. Otherwise learn to let the things you don't like just roll off your back. Then you'll have more fun here.

ALL that being said....you're clearly a smart and well educated dude. Let's call a truce and start over (I know, probably not possible after we've all flamed you, but a girl can dream can't she?).


I laugh at my own stupidity everyday. It's what keeps me rollin.

Nice use of the automatic complaint generators, very verbose indeed.

Anyway, this is what I think. I think Leo has some issues with authority. This site is run by Icedawg with the help from his moderators. As far as things go, if you don't like they have to say, then leave. Nothing much you can do about it. It is their forum. Honestly, I think things are run quite well. Bitching and complaining about it seems silly. You’re not going to change it. If you can't cope with it, then go somewhere else or start your own.

There is no real fairness in it, because fairness is kind of a myth. But I think the Mods try to do their best in being fair. When you are being unreasonable and uncooperative, which you are, then they have to go by what they believe is right. You make things harder on yourself and on everyone else.

You don't like it, then leave with your dignity intact, while you still can.

Originally posted by Daeraug
Bitching and complaining about it seems silly. You’re not going to change it.

Well, unlike the rest of your post, that's not quite true.
If Leo had some constructive criticism for us, then we may be able to change it for the better (if we can all agree that it really is better)

What the hell got into leo? Oh wlel its sad when you think someone if a good perosn and you realize they are angry weirdos....

You seem to get into a lot of arguements in forums. I googled the name "Leo Volont" because it sounded familiar, and sure enough, you were banned from the IIDB discussion forum for "personal abusive attacks on members". (I sometimes visit that site)

But netherless, there is still truth behind your posts. I find them refreshing from the usual hype of the forum, its good to have a different perspective - even though they are at times slightly pessimistic.

Originally posted by Cryptic Cane
its good to have a different perspective - even though they are at times slightly pessimistic.

I agree with you completely Cryptic Cane. We encourage differing perspectives here at Dreamviews, in fact I love to read everyones take on things.

No person has ever been called down on this website for presenting their views, however....and there is a big difference here.....

Rude and abusive behavior toward members of this community are a violation of the forum rules and will not be tolerated.

Everyone, have a nice night and Happy Dreaming!

Originally posted by Barbizzle+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Barbizzle)</div>

What the hell got into leo? Oh wlel its sad when you think someone if a good perosn and you realize they are angry weirdos....[/b]

He's upset because he's been reprimanded for discussing topics extraneous to this site's bounds, but others who are probably exaggerating their stories in regards to lucid dreaming continue unchecked.

Leo, enough with the superfluous rhetoric already; and I thought _I_ was pretentious. Unfortunately, we cannot attempt to have a regulatory system in place to police those who stretch the truth: there's a dangerous slippery slope that the aforementioned would present since we cannot pretend to be able to accurately determine who speaks the truth and who does not. Fabricators exist all around us, and it is up to us as individuals to decide for ourselves what is indeed true and what is not. I have put a great deal of effort into writing the main pages of this site which insist an adherence to the world around us and a practical way of viewing lucid dreaming; surely you cannot dispute that. Otherwise, we strive to respect free speech as much as possible here (although we aim to place topics in the forums where they belong).

Your perception of the moderating here leaves me at somewhat of a loss; quite honestly I haven't a clue what you're talking about. It seems not only are you saying moderators are neglecting to prevent exaggeration by users, but actually endorsing it and perpetuating it. That's not something I care to see take place here, so if you can be specific I can look into it.

I find your position on this matter rather ironic, since it was you who seemed to advocate either a complete void of moderation, or less moderation than currently exists. Let's review a quote or two from you, shall we?

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>

many Pages empty out when the Moderators come on too strongly[/b]

Uh-huh, and what do you think would happen if moderators mistakenly accused people of fibbing? Do you think they would be encouraged to post more, or less? How about potential outside users reading these threads including accusations from moderators?

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont@
Anyway, I have never been to a page yet where the Best Moderation was still anywhere as good as No Moderation At All.

Oh my, but what about all the exaggerating and lying? With no moderation, just who would put a stop to it? Where once you advocated less moderating, now you are clearly campaigning for more. Which is it, Leo?

The ultimate fact of the matter is that we have many kids on this site who exaggerate, and that's completely natural. We could try raising the minimal age allowed--and I already have raised it to 13--but then users would just claim to be that age anyway (I know for a fact we have/had 12 year olds running around). If a particular user causes repeated problems, such as by propagating falsehoods, then we do attempt to admonish the user and correct the problem, provided the problem is brought to our attention in the first place. I would suggest, if you like, that you attempt to give us a hand by contacting us and suggesting just who needs to be spoken to because I personally rarely have time to do much reading on the forum anymore.

in closing,

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont
It said that the Rules would not be applied againt \"friends\" but only against people with whom they have a problem.

Unfortunately I did not read the warning you received, but I would suggest that perhaps that meant we take into consideration when two friends are talking to EACH OTHER (i.e. joking around with someone who knows it's a joke), not that we condone special treatment for favoured users. The fact is, you already see us in a bad light, and no matter what we do, you are likely going to continue to interpret our moves in a similar fashion, as your interpretation to your warning suggests. Perhaps you should consider doing yourself a favour and find a forum more suited to your black & white perspective of the world. Clearly we are a constant disappointment to you.

As the infamous words of Barbizzle. And I quote!

Originally posted by Barbizzle
What the hell got into leo?.

Yeah My question exactly!
Or better yet WTF! has gotten into Leo!

what. ever. If you do not like it here, then leave.

Originally posted by spoon
Re: leo's post:

I honestly cannot see the problem with people endorsing Casteneda's writings. Sure he made some (a lot) of things up, but he got things right too. -spoon

It is an Ethical Problem.

This was a Research Anthropologist who told his University he was out in the field and continued to draw pay while he hid away at home to write fiction which he then presented to a Popular Publishing House as genuine anthropological field research.

Some of us on this page are College Educated. Certainly those with no Higher Education have not the sense of the integrity which we would expect from our University Professors. But those of us who are Educated feel a betrayal when one of our own has betrayed the Truth so thouroughly. Intellectual Honesty cannot be as cavalier as Professional Wrestling.

Yes, the Moderation of This Page, used your same Argument, that some of these writing seemed to conform to what we know to be True. But this is to sugar-coat a turd. where do we know where to draw the line. Is one sentence out of ten true, or two our of ten. One simply does not know. the only thing we can count upon is our own Experience. So if we are reduced to our own Experience, what do we need his books for anyway. Again, we find that the UnEducated like the books as entertainment -- Carlos presents himself as a clown, and he presents Don Juan as something of a clever witty Hero. If only there were pictures, I'm sure the series of books would have been as popular as Harry Potter. But there is nothing Intellectual in those books, anything True that is, that can't be found in honest scholarly works.

Then we must consider how practical and useful Honesty is. If we know that we can rely upon the Truth of what a person says, then we know that what he purports to have happened is POSSIBLE FOR ANYBODY. As soon as that person seems to espouse Lies or Liars, what happens to this implicit Trust?

You see, I am possessed of a Wonderful Knowledge which I cannot associate with any Lie. Back many years ago I had a Dream in common with another person. I have written about it many time. Because two people had one dream, it shows that Dreams are an Objective Reality -- that Dreaming is Real. It shows the Reality of some basis for Extrasensory Perception. It opens the door to great Possibilities, which coud give many people new to Dreaming a great deal of Hope, BUT ONLY IF THEY COULD BELIEVE IT TRUE. Yet the Moderation of this Page actively campaigns for the endorcement of a notorious Liar.

Credibility is our best friend, and intellectual dishonesty is our worst enemy.

so if you say you don't know what's wrong with lying, then you haven't thought about it long enough.... or you should apply to be a Moderator on This Page.

Originally posted by nightowl
what. ever. If you do not like it here, then leave.

Indeed, you have a point.

I suppose this is the way it breaks down on this Page -- for every 20 people I suppose there are two who aren't morally reprehensible retards. It is not good company. So I am here for the remaining 2 our of 20 who are worth their while.

Originally posted by Merck
Leo get over your disagreement with the staff member you know you are discussing. .

That Staff Member badgered me an entire afternoon... He started by telling me that I presented a good 'debate' but that I should get real and come off my high horse. Is such patronizing talk not the kind of insults that Moderators are supposed to protect us from. To what Moderator do we report the Moderator. I objected and gave moral and intellectual arguments for the rejection of Lies and Fraud, but that Staff Member never responding to the content of any of my arguments or moral sensitivities... but repeated as almost a mantra that I should endorse Castenada. Without any argument to back up his demands, I could only suppose he was attempting to foist his Authority upon me.

After more refusals then I can count, he decided to have fun with me and claim that he had no moral constraints at all and that I was free to consider him as Absolute Evil, and that he was Proud to be so Evil.

Then this Staff Member back-paged my thread. What was that but retribution.

NO, I am not the problem here. If somebody needs to mend any bridges, it is that Staff Member. Honestly, after so many violations of Trust and Good Ethical Sense, I cannot believe people are not screaming for his Resignation.

Oh Leo, I did all that?

I responded three maybe four times in that posting, suggesting that you could perhaps be more open minded to the possibility that there was some valuable information in Carlos writings. You then got on your moral high horse and now I am considered evil incarnate. I invite everyone to look at the topic which can be found in Extended Discussion and draw their own conclusions.

Another moderator did his job, very well I may add, by moving the topic to Extended Discussion, which was where it belonged in the first place.

We do our best to classify posts by topic on this forum to make it easier for members to find topics in which they are interested.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Honestly, after so many violations of Trust and Good Ethical Sense, I cannot believe people are not screaming for his Resignation.

Please feel free to contact Icedawg if you feel I should be removed from my position. He is afterall owner of this site and I work for him. If he feels I am remiss in my duties or am abusing my powers, I will gladly resign.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Honestly, after so many violations of Trust and Good Ethical Sense, I cannot believe people are not screaming for his Resignation.

Holy freakin hell dude.

You know, did it ever occur to you, that you bring out the worst in people? I bet from your point of vew, pretty much all of us should resign.

The problem is NEVER you, is it Monsieur Volont?

Leo, you strike me as being similar to an American college professor in that you are very pompous and are completely arrogant in that your way is THE way and there is nothing else. I'm surprised that you would even waste your infinitly valuable time talking with people who are uneducated unlike yourself.

I invite anybody to review Leo Volont's record by googling his name. His reputation precedes him. He's led a self proclaimed rebellion on other forums, and seems to be doing the same again.

If it's a war between the evil Seeker and the messiah Leo, I'll pick Seeker.
As far as I'm concerned, Leo is reading the situation the way he would like to read it - to further his 'holy' cause.

I also invite everyone to read the thread the Leo is referring to, and make up your own opinion.
Here's the link: The Disengaged Dream Self

I loooooooooooooooooooove the Seeker...

And if looooooooooooooooving the Seeker is wrooooooooooooooong

Then I don't wanna be right!

/Arsenio