Thread: Atheist children's book to be classified as 18+

Not believing in god is NOT the same as "promoting hatred and evil."
I don't believe in god but I do try to follow most of his rules.

This is a direct assault on freedom of speech.
Religion should never have control over any goverment.

Although you're technically right, something about that book creeps the hello out of me.

That piglet just looks really scary.

Mmmm...I generally dislike any attempt to teach children about belief (or lack of, in this case) until they're at least old enough to think about it intelligently.

Children should be able to approach the issue of what they believe without earlier indoctrination of any kind. It's a big issue that they really shouldn't be presented with at a vulnerable and impressionable age.

So I think it's fair enough that the German government didn't want it out there, but not that they then allow the various religious children's books to go through at the same time. Veggie Tales, whatever.

Freedom of Speech is fine if you're at an age to think about what you're being told.

You're right.

Originally Posted by Korittke

Talking about atheist discrimination and all that.
Germany's family ministry wants to index this book called


"Where's God please? asked the piglet - a book for kids who don't want to be fooled"

This is NOT cool. They want to classify this as liable to corrupt the young, which means you can't have ads for it, can't sell it via shipping and reading it to someone <18 is a crime and could get your kids taken from you (as parents)

Seriously, this is so fucking nuts, I just had to post this. This is not a group of dumbass fundies who want to push this, it is the German government.
Their basic argument is that the three major religions and their 'special features' are being ridiculed and presented in a derisive manner, that it's especially antisemitic etc. and that all of this inhibits the development of a person who is fit for society by inciting racial hatred!!!?!

The book came out Oct 2007 and gained approval among secular organizations, psychologists and educators. In March they'll decide if they want to ban it :O

Other indexed articles are Doom, Quake, Wolfenstein etc.

/cries

Well the German government over-zealously (or zealously, in any case) protects it's society from any hint of anti-Semitism. They feel they have a lot to make up for their behaviour vis a vis the Holocaust.

On the face of it, this seems totally outragous! It's terrible - banning this book would be totally disregarding every right of free speech and liberty, as well as being totally out of proportion (when I said they were over zealous, I only meant that they were touchy about these things, not that there is no reason to maky up for their behavior or protect religion in all it's forms. But this is out of proportion, even if it doesn't violate human rights. Which it does).

However, one must really take into account what level of anti-semetism was in the book, and can the sources you mentioned be trusted.

Do you have any information on your sources? Not that I doubt you (at all!) I merely wish to better understand the issue here.

Oh yeah, gotta add one more point I forgot about: Like Sindred said, I strongly disagree with children being "openly" explained about "all" religions, even though it is a form of freedom. They inevitably end up pressed into the Jewish/Muslim/Athiest etc. beliefs of their parents. It's basically brainwashing. They SHOULD be able to make their own decisions, based on what they believe after understanding the subject, but only after they understand and can make an informed decision.

Originally Posted by Siиdяed

Mmmm...I generally dislike any attempt to teach children about belief (or lack of, in this case) until they're at least old enough to think about it intelligently.

Children should be able to approach the issue of what they believe without earlier indoctrination of any kind. It's a big issue that they really shouldn't be presented with at a vulnerable and impressionable age.

Why? So we should let them chose between racism and non-racism as well? Since they don't know any better... Not tell them that medicine is superior to magic until they're in their teens and able to understand? This is not part of a good upbringing?
PROTIP: The whole point of raising a child is telling him what's right and the child taking everything you say for granted. Children don't think critically. Call it indoctrination, I call it education.

Originally Posted by The Fishy

However, one must really take into account what level of anti-semetism was in the book, and can the sources you mentioned be trusted.

Do you have any information on your sources? Not that I doubt you (at all!) I merely wish to better understand the issue here.

The sources are in German. I have the original application here, it's just a bunch of SHIT. The book shows like God killing stuff in the Old Testament, and they say that this sheds a bad light on Judaism. And the Rabbi is not the nicest person in the book so clearly we are raising Nazis by showing the book to children.
As for the book's contents. It shows like a Rabbi fighting with a Priest over religious stuff or some shit like that and the Government says that this scene clearly shows the Rabbi as attempting to KILL the Priest, implying that Jews are worse than Christians.
Then the Rabbi puts like a piece of paper into the Priests mouth and this is interpreted as the Rabbi trying to suffocate the priest (with a piece of paper?!?)

And the author is a very proficient writer in humanistic literature in Germany, something these goons probably wouldn't even understand.

Oh yeah, gotta add one more point I forgot about: Like Sindred said, I strongly disagree with children being "openly" explained about "all" religions, even though it is a form of freedom. They inevitably end up pressed into the Jewish/Muslim/Athiest etc. beliefs

Atheism is not a belief.

of their parents. It's basically brainwashing.

Once again. Calling the raising of a child brainwashing is just playing with words.

They SHOULD be able to make their own decisions, based on what they believe after understanding the subject, but only after they understand and can make an informed decision.

So this goes for racism as well, right?

Comparing racism/non-racism with Cristianity/Atheïst is pathetic.
EVERYBODY with a functional human brain knows racism is bad. Atheïsts aren't nessesarily "evil". I'm atheïst, but I remain as open minded as possible and I am NOT an immoral criminal.

Try again.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

Comparing racism/non-racism with Cristianity/Atheïst is pathetic.

Why? Both are immoral and bad ideas to teach your children.

EVERYBODY with a functional human brain knows racism is bad.

Please read about the history of prevalence of racism up until 50 years ago and try better.

That... is just ridiculous. If you can have countless children's books of little animals or whoever finding god, why not throw in a little variety in there and have some of them not find god?

This act is uber-conservative, and I think most people know this. Oh well. Baby steps, people!

Originally Posted by Korittke

Why? So we should let them chose between racism and non-racism as well? Since they don't know any better... Not tell them that medicine is superior to magic until they're in their teens and able to understand? This is not part of a good upbringing?
PROTIP: The whole point of raising a child is telling him what's right and the child taking everything you say for granted. Children don't think critically. Call it indoctrination, I call it education.


The sources are in German. I have the original application here, it's just a bunch of SHIT. The book shows like God killing stuff in the Old Testament, and they say that this sheds a bad light on Judaism. And the Rabbi is not the nicest person in the book so clearly we are raising Nazis by showing the book to children.
As for the book's contents. It shows like a Rabbi fighting with a Priest over religious stuff or some shit like that and the Government says that this scene clearly shows the Rabbi as attempting to KILL the Priest, implying that Jews are worse than Christians.
Then the Rabbi puts like a piece of paper into the Priests mouth and this is interpreted as the Rabbi trying to suffocate the priest (with a piece of paper?!?)

And the author is a very proficient writer in humanistic literature in Germany, something these goons probably wouldn't even understand.


Atheism is not a belief.


Once again. Calling the raising of a child brainwashing is just playing with words.
So this goes for racism as well, right?

You obviously have very bad problems in understanding the meaning between teaching "moral beliefs (morality, behaviour)" and teaching a child that your opinion on religion is the right one, regardless of what anyone may think.

Athieism is an opinion on a religious matter. It is the belief that there is no God.

Originally Posted by The Fishy

You obviously have very bad problems in understanding the meaning between teaching "moral beliefs (morality, behaviour)" and teaching a child that your opinion on religion is the right one, regardless of what anyone may think.

Athieism is an opinion on a religious matter. It is the belief that there is no God.

Um, aren't there a billion books out there where Christians impose their beliefs? Why such discrimination against Atheists?

BTW, Richard Dawkins is thinking of writing a children's book where he wants to teach children to think for themselves and choose their own beliefs. I doubt anyone could argue that one.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

Comparing racism/non-racism with Cristianity/Atheïst is pathetic.
EVERYBODY with a functional human brain knows racism is bad. Atheïsts aren't nessesarily "evil".

I agree. You might as well compare it to something else just as irrelevant.

Originally Posted by The Fishy

You obviously have very bad problems in understanding the meaning between teaching "moral beliefs (morality, behaviour)" and teaching a child that your opinion on religion is the right one, regardless of what anyone may think.

Athieism is an opinion on a religious matter. It is the belief that there is no God.

WWWHHARRRAHGBLBLB

Teaching atheism = teaching that your opinion on religion is most probably totally right, but possibly not.
Teaching theism = teaching that your opinion on religion is the right one, even though it's probably a big scam.
Seems fair. I wouldn't want to tell blatant lies to my kids.

Originally Posted by Korittke

Why? Both are immoral and bad ideas to teach your children.

Please read about the history of prevalence of racism up until 50 years ago and try better.

We are not in the 50's.
YOU say athe&#239;sm is immoral, but that is your opinion.
And why is athe&#239;sm immoral? If I don't believe in god but I am a very moral person so what's the problem...?

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

We are not in the 50's.
YOU say atheïsm is immoral, but that is your opinion.
And why is atheïsm immoral? If I don't believe in god but I am a very moral person so what's the problem...?

I never said that atheism is immoral. My analogy was Christianity<->Racism.

Oh... So sorry mate.
Friendly fire.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

BTW, Richard Dawkins is thinking of writing a children's book where he wants to teach children to think for themselves and choose their own beliefs. I doubt anyone could argue that one.

Now that's a good children's book.

Originally Posted by Korittke

I never said that atheism is immoral.

Yes, you did:

Originally Posted by Korittke

Why? Both [atheism and racism] are immoral and bad ideas to teach your children.

I for one say that it should be made into a major film.

That it terribly pathetic. I love how they view Atheism as an immoral status that promotes hatred and evil. A lot of people do see it as that though, mostly because they've just learned that Christianity=Good, Not Christian=Not Good... so the opposition of Christianity must=evil? Right!

Hopefully it will be translated into English so we can see if the US does anything like that.

Sindred, I think he meant that Christianity is evil.

Oh, now I sees it.

Originally Posted by Siиdяed

Now that's a good children's book.



Yes, you did:

What gives you the idea that putting in atheism/racism in there is correct?

Because you said it in response to this:

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

Comparing racism/non-racism with Cristianity/Atheïst is pathetic.

I could be excused for suggesting you meant that both racism and atheism were immoral and shouldn't be taught to children.

Originally Posted by Korittke

WWWHHARRRAHGBLBLB

Teaching atheism = teaching that your opinion on religion is most probably totally right, but possibly not.
Teaching theism = teaching that your opinion on religion is the right one, even though it's probably a big scam.
Seems fair. I wouldn't want to tell blatant lies to my kids.

I never said Atheism was good... I said both of them were bad...

Originally Posted by The Fishy

I never said Atheism was good... I said both of them were bad...

I find it impossible to debate with you because your responses make absolutely no sense to me.

It would appear we are all on the same side here...
Stop fighting over nothing.