OH NOES! They are onto us! D:
ETA: Though Epicurus still pwns this:
Originally Posted by Epicurus

"LET ME EXPLAIN the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?" "Yes, sir." "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure! God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." "Are you good or evil?" "The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?" "Yes sir, I would." "So you're good...!" "I wouldn't say that." "Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could...God doesn't." No answer.
"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" No answer
The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again young fella. Is God good?" "Er... Yes." "Is Satan good?" "No." "Where does Satan come from?" The student falters. "From... God..."
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?" "Yes." "Who created evil?" No answer
"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?" The student squirms on his feet. "Yes." "Who created them? " No answer The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?" No answer
The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?" No answer.
"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh? "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?" No answer. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do." The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen God?" "No, sir. I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" "No, sir. I have not." "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?" No answer
"Answer me, please." "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "You're AFRAID... you haven't ?" "No, sir." "Yet you still believe in him?" "...yes..." "That takes FAITH!" the professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?" The student doesn't answer. "Sit down, please." The Christian sits...Defeated.
Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?" The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering." The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such a thing as heat?" "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." "Is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too." "No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.
The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?" "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?" "Yes..." "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?" "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...." The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!" "Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears. "Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.
"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That, for example, there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."
The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?" "Of course there is, now look..." "Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such a thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?" The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.
The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."
The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."
"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor, Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do." "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.
"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?" "I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses. "So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?" "I believe in what is - that's science!"
"Ah! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..." "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in an uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.
The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain...felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so.
The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science, the professor has no brain."
The class is in chaos. The Christian sits...because that is what a chair is for. An atheist has a reason, but no hope for his reason. A hypocrite has a hope, but no reason for his hope. A Christian has a reason for his hope and a hope for his reason; and, I might add: Life with Christ is an endless hope. Without Christ is a hopeless end.
OH NOES! They are onto us! D:
ETA: Though Epicurus still pwns this:
Originally Posted by Epicurus
Last edited by bluefinger; 07-17-2008 at 01:07 PM.
-Bluefinger v1.25- Enter the madness that are my dreams (DJ Update, non-LD)
"When you reject the scientific method in order to believe what you want, you know that you have failed at life. Sorry, but there is no justification, no matter how wordy you make it."
- Xei
DILD: 6, WILD: 1
That didn't make any sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw
Ich brauche keine Waffe.
Ich ermittle ausschließlich mit dem Gehirn!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw

it makes sense, you can't prove that god exists or doesn't exist in any way, it's just a christian has faith and they believe in him, the same way you can't prove evolution exists or doesn't exist because no one has ever seen it and we won't ever see it because it takes thousands or millions of years to happen

This is like saying we can't measure something that happens over long periods of time because nobody goes around and sits there, watching it happen. And if we can't measure it, it surely can't exist!it makes sense, you can't prove that god exists or doesn't exist in any way, it's just a christian has faith and they believe in him, the same way you can't prove evolution exists or doesn't exist because no one has ever seen it and we won't ever see it because it takes thousands or millions of years to happen
If this is true, then the only apples that grow, the only trees that fall, and the only earthquakes that really happen are the ones we record with scientific data. How naive a thought. =/
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture04338.html
Evolution happens. We have the fossils, the genetics, the taxonomy, etc. The paper above deals with the comparison of genomes of the Canidae family (or most of them at least).
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...n-the-lab.html
Observed and repeated Evolution in the lab. How's that for proof?
-Bluefinger v1.25- Enter the madness that are my dreams (DJ Update, non-LD)
"When you reject the scientific method in order to believe what you want, you know that you have failed at life. Sorry, but there is no justification, no matter how wordy you make it."
- Xei
DILD: 6, WILD: 1
I liked that, very witty. Thanks Justin.


The clever christian fails because absences can be measured.
Idiot.
Formerly A Roxxor


Formerly A Roxxor
29+ Evidences for 'Macroevolution': The Scientific Case for Common Descent
The evidence is there for Evolution, whether you like it or not.
Also, this:
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-Bluefinger v1.25- Enter the madness that are my dreams (DJ Update, non-LD)
"When you reject the scientific method in order to believe what you want, you know that you have failed at life. Sorry, but there is no justification, no matter how wordy you make it."
- Xei
DILD: 6, WILD: 1

In fact, you could take anything he said, and come from another viewpoint.
Pretty doesn't exist.
It's just the absence of ugly.
Fail fail fail fail fail fail.
His brain analogy fails in TWO parts:
First off, if you were so inclined to, you could, in fact, view the professor's brain in a CT scan.
Fail.
Secondly, it is proven that humans have brains in their skulls. The professor is a living human and therefore posses a brain.
Fail mark II.
Last edited by A Roxxor; 07-17-2008 at 01:26 PM.
Formerly A Roxxor

if evolution is all true then why are there still cockroaches that's been here since the dinosaurs? they should of evolved by now
They have though. Cockroaches have branched off other species and the original still remains, just like there are still African Wild Dogs around even though they are more primitive than let's say the Grey Wolf. Evolution is an ongoing process, for example, the Coelacanths we see today are actually quite different from the fossils we see, since they have evolved over time, but simply haven't diverged much in form.
-Bluefinger v1.25- Enter the madness that are my dreams (DJ Update, non-LD)
"When you reject the scientific method in order to believe what you want, you know that you have failed at life. Sorry, but there is no justification, no matter how wordy you make it."
- Xei
DILD: 6, WILD: 1

They have....
Are you that incredibly thick and dim or are you just too lazy to search it yourself...?
There are tons of types of roaches. That aside, Their diet consists of dirt and grime, generally whatever they can find. They need very little oxygen and reproduce in insane amounts.
They don't have to change to live, so there isn't as much diversification there.
Formerly A Roxxor

either way there's still no way to prove that god exists or doesn't exist, that was the point of that story, i believe in god and i believe in evolution somewhat

they'd survive longer if they changed.

What.
Cockaroaches have been around for 225 million years. Wtf?
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Well no shit.
Just like there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of the teapot orbiting Sirius.
So since we can prove/disprove let's just believe it, right? That makes sense...?
Formerly A Roxxor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw
Ich brauche keine Waffe.
Ich ermittle ausschließlich mit dem Gehirn!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1eP84n-Lvw
If you can't prove or disprove something, then it can be disregarded. It's quite a simple concept, one that is called Scepticism. Something that isn't falsifiable can be assumed to be false in the first place. This applies to anything that makes claims that cannot be substantiated, not just on the question of "Whether a deity exists".
-Bluefinger v1.25- Enter the madness that are my dreams (DJ Update, non-LD)
"When you reject the scientific method in order to believe what you want, you know that you have failed at life. Sorry, but there is no justification, no matter how wordy you make it."
- Xei
DILD: 6, WILD: 1

according to science we all evolved from single celled organisms

you can't prove anything exists or doesn't exist unless you can see it, the bible has people that say they saw god, you can't prove them wrong since there was no way to be there

That's retarded. Those accounts were written hundreds of years after the supposed events by bronze-aged-minded people!
Wtf?
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Without exiting the bounds of Biological Chemistry too much; we evolved from the base elements on earth.
Btw: Justin, you totally skipped my destruction of your "clever christian".
Justifying belief in the way you are doing it is a big pile of fail.
Formerly A Roxxor
-Bluefinger v1.25- Enter the madness that are my dreams (DJ Update, non-LD)
"When you reject the scientific method in order to believe what you want, you know that you have failed at life. Sorry, but there is no justification, no matter how wordy you make it."
- Xei
DILD: 6, WILD: 1
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