Thread: The Case for God?

Originally Posted by linxx

And then about how cells are so complex and have many different parts that have to be working together at once, that this can't have happened at random either, that something had to have designed it, aka GOD.

Did the movie state how God was created by come chance? Surely something as powerful, intelligence, and "complex" as God had to have something that designed him/her correct?

You see, thats the only problem with all these people who go on to say how the Theory of Evolution is wrong, and that God created everything. They skip on the part of, "What Created God then?".

Originally Posted by linxx

He wrote a book called The Case for Christ, which my mom actually got me awhile ago but I could never read because it was too boring.

The Case for Christ, or the case for the Creator/God? There's a big difference in that one of them advocates the belief in specific religions that incorporate the idea of Christ, while the other deals with creationism in general.

And it's true that the theory of evolution has it's missing links right now, but whether or not it's true or false should have nothing, NOTHING, to do with the theory of God. Evolution has only to do with very specific beliefs that are otherwise contradicted by the theory.

Damn, lol, how could I not have thought of that.

Though, I think mainly the reason its unnerved me is not because I don't have anything to say, it's because my mom thinks she's got one up on me now. She's just so.... unlikable, I can't stand her. I still trust the way that I think is the right way to think, and their blind faith is exactly that, blind. I think I just need to get the hell away from her.

But thanks, that'll be my comeback next time! hah

Originally Posted by invader_tech

The Case for Christ, or the case for the Creator/God? There's a big difference in that one of them advocates the belief in specific religions that incorporate the idea of Christ, while the other deals with creationism in general.

And it's true that the theory of evolution has it's missing links right now, but whether or not it's true or false should have nothing, NOTHING, to do with the theory of God. Evolution has only to do with very specific beliefs that are otherwise contradicted by the theory.

He wrote The Case for Christ, which I have not read. We watched the Case for the Creator, which was specifically about creationism. There were also two other videos, which my mom's boyfriend said focused on Christ and then focused on why Christianity was the only way to God.

Hah, that was my response, because at the beginning he's talking about how he's so into logic and getting the facts and proof and blahblahblah and then he becomes a Christian! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Ok, so the theory of evolution has flaws, now adam and eve and the talking snake make a lot more sense!!!!!! My mom's bf goes, thats the next movie.

Originally Posted by linxx

He wrote The Case for Christ, which I have not read. We watched the Case for the Creator, which was specifically about creationism. There were also two other videos, which my mom's boyfriend said focused on Christ and then focused on why Christianity was the only way to God.

Hah, that was my response, because at the beginning he's talking about how he's so into logic and getting the facts and proof and blahblahblah and then he becomes a Christian! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Ok, so the theory of evolution has flaws, now adam and eve and the talking snake make a lot more sense!!!!!! My mom's bf goes, thats the next movie.

This calls for this:

lol well now i just feel much better!!!! thankyou!!!!

Originally Posted by invader_tech

And it's true that the theory of evolution has it's missing links right now

No.

Thread starter, educate yourself in these areas to find the answer:

- Basic philosophy of science (scientific method, falsifiability, empiricism, naturalism) and logic (classical logic)
- Evolutionary biology

You will find that all criticism of evolution is inevitably based on gross misunderstandings and straw men and that god doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by linxx

proves Darwin's theory of evolution to be false

I lol'd.

Evolution, on a scale that we're talking about here, is rare to observe. However, evolution, has proven to exist on smaller scales, such as with insects and viruses, bacteria, ect... Evolution takes time. In order for something as complex as a human to have evolved, it would take probably millions of years. Thats the reason we never witness it on this scale. Its not something that happens over night.

Since its never been witnessed, many people say "its impossible.". However, just look at the smaller scales of evolution that HAVE been witnessed. How long does it take for something that small to actually evolve and "adapt"? Now take that knowlege, and guess how long it would take for something like a human, or even a Cat or a Dog, to evolve into what it is today.

What we've actually witnessed as far as evolution is concerned, is just the tip of the Ice berg. On a much larger scale, evolution does exist. Its just imossible for one to witness in just 1 lifetime.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if, in the past 10,000 years, there haven't been any significant changes to any species that is documentable. But if you look at the minor changes, they are there.

Originally Posted by Serkat

No.

I thought the link between birds and their reptilian predecessors was a big deal in the evolution gig right now, being that there exists no physical evidence for it? Don't be afraid to talk about it, an explanation goes a lot further than just saying "No", and I'm open for whatever you have to say.

Originally Posted by invader_tech

I thought the link between birds and their reptilian predecessors was a big deal in the evolution gig right now, being that there exists no physical evidence for it? Don't be afraid to talk about it, an explanation goes a lot further than just saying "No", and I'm open for whatever you have to say.

The theory itself doesn't have missing links or missing evidence that would be needed to assert its standing as an accurate scientific theory. Rather, there are specific unanswered questions within evolutionary biology, just as there are unanswered questions in all other scientific fields.

Originally Posted by Serkat

The theory itself doesn't have missing links or missing evidence that would be needed to assert its standing as an accurate scientific theory. Rather, there are specific unanswered questions within evolutionary biology, just as there are unanswered questions in all other scientific fields.

Exactly.

Where the problem arises then, is in that this particular scientific theory conflicts with alot of modern religion. This leads to widespread confusion and public attacks on the theory. The theory itself is no less supported than a number of other currently taken for fact theories, but they aren't disputed.

If something like gravity was in conflict with the teachings of the Bible, you can bet there would be distributed Christian videos "proving" gravity false.

People really don't like science when it intrudes on their simplistic cosy world view.

Originally Posted by Serkat

The theory itself doesn't have missing links or missing evidence that would be needed to assert its standing as an accurate scientific theory. Rather, there are specific unanswered questions within evolutionary biology, just as there are unanswered questions in all other scientific fields.

Right. When I said "missing links" I was using a term common to the evolution community that's meant to imply that specific evolutionary paths haven't been fully explained yet, that there are certain specimens that have remained as of yet undiscovered and effect the credibility of some of the theories within the theory of evolution (reptilians to birds, as a rough example). My intention was not to challenge the concept as a whole... Although I can see how it appeared that way.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

If something like gravity was in conflict with the teachings of the Bible, you can bet there would be distributed Christian videos "proving" gravity false.

There are folks who don't believe in it today. They are called the Flat Earth Society.

I thought theory of evolution was pretty convinving until reading some material by non-Christian creationists, more specifically, The Dalai Lama. HH Dalai Lama brings up the point that Darwin's theory does not account for altruism---when one organism gives its life for the betterment of the being's entire society. It's easiest to see in humans, but honey bees will also give their lives to protect the hive. Could conciousness be the result of millions of years of evolution to benefit one set of beings in particular? Now there's a missing link....

I can't remember whether I've seen the movie TS is talking about, but I probably have. I was at one time easily convinced of all that god mess but I was young and indoctrinated. Now that I know better, there was surely some intelligence behind the universe and it was surely not a caucasian male sitting on a golden throne high above the clouds.

I suggest reading the book The Universe In a Single Atom by The Dalai Lama

"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future:
it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual,
and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things,
natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity." -- Einstein

Originally Posted by Serkat

No.

Thread starter, educate yourself in these areas to find the answer:

- Basic philosophy of science (scientific method, falsifiability, empiricism, naturalism) and logic (classical logic)
- Evolutionary biology

You will find that all criticism of evolution is inevitably based on gross misunderstandings and straw men and that god doesn't exist.

like i said, i dont know enough on the topic to prove it wrong. by all means i would LOVE it if you would watch the video and tell me exactly why it is wrong. otherwise, this video explains how throughout fossil records, you don't see a gradual species change, it goes from small species to pretty complicated species with spinal cords in a really fast amount of time. also, it says scientists around the world have signed a document AGAINST darwinism.

realize, im not the one saying anything against evolution, i still fully believe in evolution over a "creator". however, if you can imagine, this video is like a goldmine to a christian, they finally have their own scientific evidence to argue their side! i dont believe it one bit, but how does someone who puts so much faith into science, argue science.

I have thought about altruism too.

Here are some examples from wiki:

- Dogs often adopt orphaned cats, squirrels, ducks and even tigers.

- Dolphins support sick or injured animals, swimming under them for hours at a time and pushing them to the surface so they can breathe.

- Wolves and wild dogs bring meat back to members of the pack not present at the kill.

- Male baboons threaten predators and cover the rear as the troop retreats.

- Gibbons and chimpanzees with food will, in response to a gesture, share their food with others of the group. Chimpanzees will help other humans and Conspecifics without any reward in return

- Bonobos have been observed aiding injured or handicapped bonobos.

- According to the research of Gerald Wilkinson, vampire bats have a "buddy system" in which a bat who has had a successful night of feeding will regurgitate blood for its less fortunate companion.

- Raccoons inform conspecifics about feeding grounds by droppings left on commonly shared latrines. A similar information system has been observed to be used by common ravens

- In numerous bird species, a breeding pair receives support in raising its young from other "helper" birds, including help with the feeding of its fledglings. Some will even go as far as protecting an unrelated bird's young from predators

- Most mammal carnivores like wolves or dogs have a habit of not harming pack members below certain age, of opposite sex or in surrendering position (in case of some animals, the behavior exists within entire species rather than one pack).

- Vervet Monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked.

- Walruses have been seen adopting orphans who lost their parents to predators.

- Termites release a sticky secretion by rupturing a gland near the skin in their neck, this autothysis defends against invading ants by creating a tar baby effect.

There are some more examples: when a bee is sick, it will fly a long distance away from the beehive. It will then die alone.

There are numours cases of animals sacrificing their life to safe their owner/humans. I remember one case where a kid had fallen off his bike on some road, he couldn't move. Well, some dog saw the kid on the road and a car driving towards him, the dog chased the car and barked at it, the guy driving was confused but kept driving. Some 10 meters from the kid, the dog jumps infront of the car, and thus getting killed but saving the kid.

Evolution doesn't imply biological determinism, especially so in sentient beings.

I would really appreciate it if someone would watch a little bit of the video, I'd like to hear from someone who actually knows what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql_4e...446DD6&index=6

Originally Posted by linxx

There's also two more but the creator was the one we watched. If you haven't heard of him, Lee Strobel is the guy who used to be an athiest, went out to find proof that there was no God, and ended up becoming a Christian in the process.

Lee Strobel was a journalist, not a Biologist.

Originally Posted by linxx

I would really appreciate it if someone would watch a little bit of the video, I'd like to hear from someone who actually knows what I'm talking about.

The video sucks, espically the tautologies. On the point of the fossil records, even if all fossil records were destroyed and had huge gaps in it, then you can still deduce Evolution from genetics.

The problem with Intelligent Design is that it is not a theory, it makes no predictions.

Originally Posted by wendylove

Lee Strobel was a journalist, not a Biologist.

i know that i never said he was. he went out and interviewed a bunch of people.

Read up on this:

http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/nick.he.html

We know for certain that primates (including humans) came from a common ancestor. There is no "missing link" for humanity's origins. If there is a god, evolution is his right hand.

Have you checked out the Talk Origins website? It is an awesome source of ammunition for dealing with creationists. They even have articles debunking all the popular creationist arguements.
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs.html

I always keep it open when I email back and forth with my crazy mother.

lol thankkkkyouuuuuu! ill check those out

Yeah, Strobel pulls that whole "I was an atheist" bull, but he was what you would call a "I want to drink and party, therefore I won't believe in god" atheist. So he didn't come to any form of conclusion or conviction based on evidence, he was just an idiot.

I've read The Case for Faith and The Case for Christ. The Case for Christ wasn't too bad; the only thing I thought that it did well was make a good case for the tomb being empty. But that is about 5 x 10^9999 light years away from Christianity being true.

The Case for Faith was utter garbage and nonsense; I honestly don't know how I got through it.

One thing that stuck out in my memory in The Case for Faith is Lee's retelling of the story of the children making fun of Elijah's bald head and god sending bears to maul them all to death. He said the experts (the Christian scholars in other words) postulated that by children it really meant dangerous teenagers. Hey, whatever lets you sleep at night Strobel.

BTW, Strobel has been doing some Q&A on http://friendlyatheist.com/

The guys there really tear all of his arguments to shreds; highly recommended considering the movie most likely uses all the same arguments.