Thread: Could God create a universe without suffering?

Of course he could, but that being the case, where would there be room for his creations to learn and grow?

Let's simplify this. You get a new kitten, do everything to make its life comfortable and without pain, you never let it take any risks or do anything which it could get hurt or suffer pain.

That is going to be one really messed up kitten.

Originally posted by Seeker
Of course he could, but that being the case, where would there be room for his creations to learn and grow?

Let's simplify this. *You get a new kitten, do everything to make its life comfortable and without pain, you never let it take any risks or do anything which it could get hurt or suffer pain. *

That is going to be one really messed up kitten.

Only if said kitty ever runs into any problems. If you (or god for that matter) could prevent any problems or ill circumstances from ever happening to said kitty; what would be the harm in that?

Originally posted by Seeker
Of course he could, but that being the case, where would there be room for his creations to learn and grow?

Let's simplify this. *You get a new kitten, do everything to make its life comfortable and without pain, you never let it take any risks or do anything which it could get hurt or suffer pain. *

That is going to be one really messed up kitten.

But my point is that God is supposed to be infinitely powerful, so he could change all of that. He could create any situation and have no problems with it. I can't, but if I were infinitely powerful, I would be able to.

Of course he could, but that being the case, where would there be room for his creations to learn and grow?

Let's simplify this. You get a new kitten, do everything to make its life comfortable and without pain, you never let it take any risks or do anything which it could get hurt or suffer pain.

That is going to be one really messed up kitten. [/b]

Not really, plenty of people have show cats/home cats that would fit this description. They turn out fine, sure they have no hunting skills whatsoever, but they have no need. My friends have a purebred burmese that can't go outside because people steal purebred cats apparantly, its pretty cool

The way I think of it is this. Currently we've got all of these natural events that cause suffering, some people go through their entire lives without suffering a flood, tornado, earthquake, etc. They lead productive lives.

But of course that's not the only kind of suffering. There's also that caused by people. It is caused by people because, in the christian mythos, we were created with a predisposition towards sin/bad behaviour. If god created us with a predisposition to do only good we'd still interact and grow, just not interact in a bad way.

-spoon

Universal Mind, You've used the "But God is meant to be infinitely powerful" route on at least 2 other debates
and I really don't think you get what's going on, here

I always feel I have to re-itterate that I'm not religious, when I do stuff like this
but I do know a fair bit about religion

feel free to poke holes in all that follows

Man needs to be able to freely choose between good and evil
and it's that ability to freely choose, which is important
Christians call this ability, the human soul
and only we humans have a soul

Animals do not have a soul (aka the ability of free chose between good and evil)

For God to create a world with no evil will not be the same as paradise
I said somewhere on another thread, that paradise is only paradise when compared to hell. If you know no suffering, you will not appreciate paradise.
(would ice-cream taste so good, if you hadn't tasted broccoli)

The whole idea, is for man to know of evil (through living out his life) but to actively reject it, in favour of good.

to know no evil, at the end of the day, don't mean shit
you have to know evil
and be able to cope with evil being all around you
while not giving in to evil
that's the sign of a good man

Cause when the final assault comes
Gods soldiers will have to combat all the evil in the world
and if his soldiers have not rejected evil in their living lives
how the hell are they going to stay true and un-corrupted when fighting in God's name

Damn, I need to stop doing this
or I'm going to get arrested by undercover FBI operatives
that sounded like a call to arms
"Rise up and quash the infidels"
Bugger
maybe I'm a closet extremist

It's very popular to justify suffering to show that we learn and grow from them, but that's in this dimension and this universe. But if God was infinite, why couldn't he have created a universe with the required "laws" and such that can set the stage for a life without suffering? This is something religionists cannot answer, and that I often hold something against the "divine." But...since the horse is already dead, I don't think there is much more I can add.

But of course that's not the only kind of suffering. *There's also that caused by people. *It is caused by people because, in the christian mythos, we were created with a predisposition towards sin/bad behaviour. *If god created us with a predisposition to do only good we'd still interact and grow, just not interact in a bad way.

-spoon[/b]

Well if you want to get down to the Bible, it says in Genesis that man was created holy and in God's image. Then satan entered the world and through him, sin. So technically man started out perfect, and without problems. Therefore, God can, and did, create a world without suffering. Adam and Eve had everything they needed without anything negative.

Yes, he could........But why would he?

We create our own suffering......As a global society and also largely due to our individual perception of what is suffering......

If you must climb a mountain to see to the next valley......That can suck......Climbing is hard........Some may see it as suffering.....Some may see it as a welcomed challenge worthy of a greter reward.........

We learn from suffering........We cannot have good without the possibility and choice for each of us to commit evil......Yin Yang..........Without one there cannot be the other....Without darkness we would not know what light is.........

Suffering is a gift and we are never burdned with more than we can handle the many of us often think so...........

Originally posted by Preacher
Yes, he could........But why would he?

We create our own suffering......As a global society and also largely due to our individual perception of what is suffering......

If you must climb a mountain to see to the next valley......That can suck......Climbing is hard........Some may see it as suffering.....Some may see it as a welcomed challenge worthy of a greter reward.........

We learn from suffering........We cannot have good without the possibility and choice for each of us to commit evil......Yin Yang..........Without one there cannot be the other....Without darkness we would not know what light is.........

Suffering is a gift and we are never burdned with more than we can handle the many of us often think so...........

For the last time. God could change those laws of reality. God could make up down, God could make black white, God could make left right, God could make learning possible without suffering, God could make us know what light is without knowing dark. God has the power. That's the fundamental logical flaw of an all-loving, all-powerful being.

Brady has the point I was implying. Why couldn't have God bended the laws of the universe to make a life system where everything was perfect? Where improvement wasn't necessary, and where the capacity for boredom wouldn't be present? (to the people who insist on change) A system where mistakes weren't necessary to learn? Too often, people only look within the limitations we currently have. For the sake of acceptance, I agree with doing that, but logically, it is unanswerable.

I realised something today. I haven't suffered in my life. No-one I know has been raped, murdered, tornadoe'd, flood'd, got a terminal disease, etc. No-one has tried to make me suffer, no-one has expected me to suffer - yet I've grown fine. If I can develop in to a perfectly normal 20 year old without suffering, how is suffering a requirement for developing?

You might answer: "but you've suffered in other ways". Fine. Then why do the examples I gave (murder, etc) which I have definately not suffered from exist? They are clearly not needed for development.

You might answer: "but you've heard about other people suffering, that is enough". If you need not actually experience it to develop, then god could create us with the knowledge of suffering.

Originally posted by Ynot+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ynot)</div>

Man needs to be able to freely choose between good and evil
and it's that ability to freely choose, which is important
Christians call this ability, the human soul
and only we humans have a soul

For God to create a world with no evil will not be the same as paradise
I said somewhere on another thread, that paradise is only paradise when compared to hell. *If you know no suffering, you will not appreciate paradise.
(would ice-cream taste so good, if you hadn't tasted broccoli)

The whole idea, is for man to know of evil (through living out his life) but to actively reject it, in favour of good.

to know no evil, at the end of the day, don't mean shit
you have to know evil
and be able to cope with evil being all around you
while not giving in to evil
that's the sign of a good man

[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-Preacher


We learn from suffering........We cannot have good without the possibility and choice for each of us to commit evil......Yin Yang..........Without one there cannot be the other....Without darkness we would not know what light is.........

As Brady and AirRick further pointed out, an infinitely powerful being chould change every bit of that. The point of this thread is that an omnipotent God would not have to work within the confines of reality as we know it. That is why I put the "without there being any problems with the complete absence of suffering" at the end of my question. You guys keep talking about problems with the absence of suffering. I am asking if it is possible for God to make it where there wouldn't be any. Do you see what I am saying? That is the logical flaw I see in the idea of an omnipotent being who has no level of indifference. Talking about "have to's" and "needs" doesn't sufficiently address the issue. Because, by definition, there is no "have to" that can apply to an omnipotent being, I think there is no way around the point. That is why I don't believe in an omnipotent being who is totally good. I wish I did. If you see a way around my full point, please tell me what it is.

I think a key issue is being ignored here, and I'm going to try to illustrate it. Forgive me for not stating my bias up-front; I don't know what it is yet. I'll tell you in a minute, I might ramble.

Let's look at what suffering actually is. The average western mindset says that suffering is experiencing crappy things. Tornados, floods, pestacios, ect... This is a limited, and a pessimistic standard. As living beings, we rely on certain skills for our survival: Breathing, scoring, opening aluminum cans, and most importantly, differentiating one thing from another, like a cool thing from a crappy thing; a taffy from a tiger. The basic tool we have for learning to distinguish one thing from another is suffering. Eastern philosophy handily breaks this down into two parts: Grasping and aversion. Looking at it this way, you begin to see the side of suffering that can be pleasant. Did you already forget the first time you kissed the first person to unhinge your senses? It wasn't a small thing. There was tension before, a longing, a suffering that came to a head at that very moment your lips touched. It was agony, and it made you want it again. Suffering is the only thing that motivates us to do anything. If we were never tense, we would have no desire to relax. If we never got bored, we would not seek adventure. Et Circum Infinita.

There is no good or bad side to any type of suffering. They are physiologically the same. Have you ever noticed how similar laughing and crying are? They serve the same purpose: eleviate a certain kind of tension. The distinction is an intellectual one, the knowledge of what brought about the emotion. The emotion serves to return us to the center. Peace. Calmness. Tranquility.

If God creates a universe without suffering, then He creates a universe without emotion. A machine; a contraption. If he put mankind there, then mankind would behave blindly, making no decisions, following the tide of simple consequense. The human mind is like a circumstancial capacitor, storing experiences with memories of emotion to dredge up later for tha sake of making desicions.

Life is suffering. But it's not so bad. Relax.

Well, I was on that side of the argument just because it was intellectually more demanding. But of course, realistically, I won't expect to live outside of a reality of suffering. Life is suffering, but it's also pleasure. I don't know if you need bad to experience good, but the bad definately will help you appreciate the good.

Suffering is pain, anything that makes us feel our survival quotient has been lowered. Or our ability to thrive has been surpressed to merely only surviving.

But, I once learned that all sensation is a degree of conflict or "pain." Pleasure in and of itself is not possible, but a certain arrangement of friction will cause sensations we call pleasure, and when you get too much, it's called pain. It's like the way hot and cold works. Cold does not exist in and of itself, but the heat calls the shots depending on how much there is at a time. But...do you ever think it's possible that natural laws could not get more infinite than they already are, despite our insisting that there should be?

Originally posted by O&#045;Nieronaut

If God creates a universe without suffering, then He creates a universe without emotion. A machine; a contraption. If he put mankind there, then mankind would behave blindly, making no decisions, following the tide of simple consequense. The human mind is like a circumstancial capacitor, storing experiences with memories of emotion to dredge up later for tha sake of making desicions.

But my point is that an infinitely powerful being could change that law of reality and any other law of reality. That is the point that has not been countered.

Will there be suffering in Heaven? Will there be temptation to do evil and/or wrong things in Heaven? Will we still possess whatever negative charateristics that we possess here on Earth?

If you answer NO to all of those questions, then why didn't an Omnibenelovent and Omnipotent god keep his "cherished" creation in Heaven?

If your planning on saying that we must first experience suffering and pain in order to appreciate the positive qualities of life, then what happens in say 10 million years of being in Heaven? Wouldn't we eventually become desensitized to all of the eternal bliss?

Sorry about posting so many questions in one post...theist feel free to pick each question out and respond as necessary.

Originally posted by AirRick101
Life is suffering, but it's also pleasure.

You missed my point, friend. Pleasure is also suffering.

To answer the question; I say yes. And now for my 2 cents:
How do we really know that this existence of ours is not perfect? The only suffering that anyone has ever had, is because we interpreted it as such. I mean, a person into S&M suffers, but in a less acceptable way? I personally have never been starved, shot, robbed, or any other such horrible things. But, I have been beaten, pistol whipped, and raped. Through all these things, I never suffered. I endured. Why didn't I suffer, well its simple, it happened to me not my younger siblings. So where some see things as suffering, others see relief.

[quote]

As Brady and AirRick further pointed out, an infinitely powerful being chould change every bit of that. The point of this thread is that an omnipotent God would not have to work within the confines of reality as we know it. That is why I put the \"without there being any problems with the complete absence of suffering\" at the end of my question. You guys keep talking about problems with the absence of suffering. I am asking if it is possible for God to make it where there wouldn't be any. Do you see what I am saying? That is the logical flaw I see in the idea of an omnipotent being who has no level of indifference. Talking about \"have to's\" and \"needs\" doesn't sufficiently address the issue. Because, by definition, there is no \"have to\" that can apply to an omnipotent being, I think there is no way around the point. That is why I don't believe in an omnipotent being who is totally good. I wish I did. If you see a way around my full point, please tell me what it is.

Hi UniversalMind, that is some logical thinking. If I am in the vicinity of this thought, a question similar to yours is: If God is perfect, why is his creation imperfect (ie, why is there suffering and why is he not doing anything about it)?

First of all, I believe that God is not bound by any laws of reality(someone else had posted a similar thread..you? hehe). Esentially he did create a universe without suffering. Since time immemorial including the beginnings of his heavenly family...this universe...this Earth, harmony was everywhere. With the Creation of Man and finally Woman, everything was beautiful. Then Sin happened and the "Fall" took place.

I'll continue later, but maybe you can let me know if this is what you were getting at

Did this touch upon anything you were asking about? I've come to the conclusion that suffering was a natural result of the rebellion that took place when Satan, Adam and Eve betrayed God. A comforting reminder I found is that God is not indifferent to our suffering and ultimately suffering and evil will be eliminated since there will no longer be a purpose for it.

I can't believe I hadn't responded to this yet.

I would say no, but then, that is due to my belief about the nature of God; I believe God is not omnipotent.

Originally posted by O&#045;Nieronaut


You missed my point, friend. Pleasure is also suffering.

I've already said on the forum that pleasure is to a degree some sort of pain. And enough of that pain will cause the unpleasant "pain!!!" It's parallel to the hot and cold situation. There is no cold in and of itself, it's merely the absence of temperature.

But this misses the point, too. As long as we perceive something as pleasure, there's no point in trying to define life as suffering in those terms. But since everything is relative, isn't it just as possible that suffering is only imagined. What if we wanted the way things are to be the way things are? This is not realistic, but what if that was our state of mind in anticipation? Could we suffer then?

Originally posted by Rakkantekimusouka
I would say no, but then, that is due to my belief about the nature of God; I believe God is not omnipotent.

That is a much more difficult idea of God to argue against. That idea is something I can only say is extremely far fetched, but I can't use logic to completely disprove it. It seems to me like a major fantasy idea, but it does not involve contradictions, at least not that much alone.

But with every step off of omnipotence, doesn't it reduce your desire to worship such an imperfect thang by like the square of the distance from omnipotence?

I mean, last I checked, my left pinky toenail wasn't omnipotent either. And I had very little desire to worship it. If it were omnipotent, I'd buy it a lot more really nice pairs of shoes. But then, I'd kinda expect it to create its own really nice shoes, being omnipotent and all.

I guess that's my point: If it were omnipotent, you'd expect something better from it. If it's not, then why do I care what it thinks?

Heh, I don't think I would say such things where an omnipotent entity that might exist might overhear.