Thread: I would probably give $1,000,000 to anyone that could convince me that God exists.

Explain these ones to me then Noogah.....

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)





But if this charge is true, and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)





If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

"Cheek" is a symbolic term for "fist".

So, brofist?

Originally Posted by Noogah

It depends really.

If a guys runs into your house, and starts to strangle your four year old daughter, I think you are justified in shooting him.

If somebody pulls out a gun and starts to shoot at you, I think you are justified in shooting him.


Death is a part of life, as is defense, and killing. God never condoned killing in itself,



but there are times when it is not merely killing, it is defense, and corporal punishment.(O NOES!NOT COPORAL PUNISHMENT1!!!!1!11!!!!!)

We weren't talking about self-defence though. It was god asking his people to torture and execute a man, and all that just because the man "blasphemed" god's name. Furthermore...

Then the LORD said to Moses: "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held responsible; anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

.

Originally Posted by evildoctor

Explain these ones to me then Noogah.....

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)





But if this charge is true, and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)





If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

We weren't talking about self-defence though. It was god asking his people to torture and execute a man, and all that just because the man "blasphemed" god's name.

If it weren't in the Bible, I wouldn't do it.

Deuteronomy is part of the civil Judicial law given to the Israelites in the Old Testament. They weren't made for the average person, only a code of morality to be temporarily followed to give one the reservation of salvation before Jesus came, and made it possible without sacrifice.

Rules were tough back then. But we live in the new testament, not the old testament.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

"Cheek" is a symbolic term for "fist".

Is it? Interesting.

More importantly, was it?

Also, in the context, one can be quite certain it is referring to the literal cheek, not some dumb slang term.

Originally Posted by Noogah

If it weren't in the Bible, I wouldn't do it.

Deuteronomy is part of the civil Judicial law given to the Israelites in the Old Testament. They weren't made for the average person, only a code of morality to be temporarily followed to give one the reservation of salvation before Jesus came, and made it possible without sacrifice.

Rules were tough back then. But we live in the new testament, not the old testament.

That doesn't make much sense. Why would god need to send Jesus down to save us? (And what did he save us from anyway?) He could have just instantly saved us right from the start, therefore sparing the people from BC from having to endure his wacky rules.

Also, does it actually say anywhere in the new testament that the rules from the old book no longer apply?

So Noogah,

The 10 commandments are all redundent now then right?

Also homosexuality must also be cool now right? :

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Leviiticus is old testament right? So invalid now?

Originally Posted by evildoctor

Leviiticus is old testament right? So invalid now?

Of course not, because that is convinient for Christians. All the "bad verses" are put out by man. Hand picked in order to shape religion into more appealing. Modern man doesn't want to stone people to death.

Secondly, there is no act that is justicated. Religion is just used to find that non-existing justification, when it, in reality, cannot be found. We are all humans and god apparently doesn't exist, at least he is completely indifferent with world and doesn't intervere with it. So, since we all are mere humans nobody has right to tell someone that their acts are more justificated than the other.


Noogah has nothing to comment on my reply? Fine.

Let me clarify something to you.
The OT law can be divided into three categories- the Civil law, the Sacrificial law, and the Moral Law.
The civil law was set for the nation of Israel, in order to set the country apart from others. These include food and clothing regulations.
The sacrificial law was a temporary stand-in before Jesus Christ. These laws were done away with once He came- since He is now our ultimate sacrifice.

The ONLY OT laws that still apply for today are the Moral laws- which include the Ten commandments, and other more specific laws. We know this because Christ mentioned the 10 commandments in the NT, therefore validating them for the New dispensation.

You ought to know that, the majority of those that follow the bible, do not make any specific distinctions in OT and NT laws. Furthermore, most that follow the bible do so unyieldingly.

If you truly think that "thou shalt not kill" is not contradicted nor encouraged in the NT, then you are flat wrong. There are far too many instances where the NT encourages murder, death, and cruelty.

Spoiler for New Testament Quotations for Violence, Murder, and Cruelty:

Matthew

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17
Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30
Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19
"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12
Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21
Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32
Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21
Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28
Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24
Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7
Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9
"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34
In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13
Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37
God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51
The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30
Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41
Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

Mark

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12
Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13
Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) 7:9-10
If you're ashamed of Jesus, he'll be ashamed of you. (And you'll go straight to hell.) 8:38
Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49
Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. 16:16

Luke

God strikes Zacharias dumb for doubting the angel Gabriel's words. 1:20
Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 3:9
John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned "with fire unquenchable." 3:17
Jesus heals a naked man who was possessed by many devils by sending the devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the sea. This messy, cruel, and expensive (for the owners of the pigs) treatment did not favorably impress the local residents, and Jesus was asked to leave. 8:27-37
Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15
Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5
Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47
"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." 13:3, 5
According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13:23-30
In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. 16:19-31
Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody. 17:26-27
Jesus also believes the story about Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed ... Remember Lot's wife." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. 17:29-32
In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." 19:22-27

John

Jesus believed the stupid and vicious story from Numbers 21. (God sent snakes to bite the people for complaining about the lack of foood and water, and then God told Moses to make a brass snake to cure them from the bites.) 3:14
As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16
People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36
The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 3:36
Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14
Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6
Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was just too gross for "many of his disciples" and "walked no more with him." 6:53-66

Acts

Peter claims that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23
Peter and God scare Ananias and his wife to death for not forking over all of the money that they made when selling their land. 5:1-10
Peter has a dream in which God show him "wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls." The voice (God's?) says, "Rise, Peter: kill and eat." 10:10-13
Peter describes the vision that he had in the last chapter (10:10-13). All kinds of beasts, creeping things, and fowls drop down from the sky in a big sheet, and a voice (God's, Satan's?) tells him to "Arise, Peter; slay and eat." 11:5-6
The "angel of the Lord" killed Herod by having him "eaten of worms" because "he gave not God the glory." 12:23
David was "a man after [God's] own heart." 13:22
The author of Acts talks about the "sure mercies of David." But David was anything but merciful. For an example of his behavior see 2 Sam.12:31 and 1 Chr.20:3, where he saws, hacks, and burns to death the inhabitants of several cities. 13:34
Paul and the Holy Ghost conspire together to make Elymas (the sorcerer) blind. 13:8-11

Romans

Homosexuals (those "without natural affection") and their supporters (those "that have pleasure in them") are "worthy of death." 1:31-32
The guilty are "justified" and "saved from wrath" by the blood of an innocent victim. 5:9
God punishes everyone for someone else's sin; then he saves them by killing an innocent victim. 5:12

1 Corinthians

If you defile the temple of God, God will destroy you. 3:17
Paul claims that God killed 23,000 in a plague for "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab 10:8
If you tempt Christ (How could you tempt Christ?), you'll will die from snake bites. 10:9
If you murmur, you'll be destroyed by the destroyer (God). 10:10

2 Corinthians

The terror of the Lord 5:11

Ephesians

We are predestined by God to go to either heaven or hell. None of our thoughts, words, or actions can affect the final outcome. 1:4-5, 11
God had his son murdered to keep himself from hurting others for things they didn't do. 1:7
The bloody death of Jesus smelled good to God. 5:2
Those who refuse to obey will face the wrath of God. 5:6
Philippians (None)

Colossians

God bought us with someone else's blood. 1:14
God makes peace through blood. 1:19-20

1 Thessalonians

God is planning a messy, mass murder in "the wrath to come" and only Jesus can save you from it. 1:10
Christians shouldn't mourn the death of their fellow believers. They'll be OK and you'll see them later in heaven. The people you should mourn are dead nonbelievers. They have no hope (becasue they're going to hell). 4:13

2 Thessalonians

Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire." 1:7-9
Jesus will "consume" the wicked "with the spirit of his mouth." 2:8
God will cause us to believe lies so that he can damn our souls to hell. 2:11-12

Hebrews

God will not forgive us unless we shed the blood of some innocent creature. 9:13-14, 22
Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29
The Israelites kept the passover and sprinkled blood on doorposts so that God wouldn't kill their firstborn children (like he did the Egyptians in Exodus 12:29). 11:28
God ordered animals to be "stoned, or thrust through with a dart" if they "so much as ... touch the mountain." 12:20

James

If you are merciless to others, God will be merciless to you. (Two wrongs make a right.) 2:13
James says Abraham was justified by works (for being willing to kill his son for God); Paul (Rom.4:2-3) says he was justified by faith (for believing that God would order him to do such an evil act). 2:21

1 Peter

We are all, according to Peter, predestined to be saved or damned. We have no say in the matter. It was all determined by "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."1:2
"The precious blood of Christ ... was foreordained before the foundation of the world."
God planned to kill Jesus from the get-go. 1:19-20
God drowned drowned everyone on earth except for Noah and his family. 3:20

2 Peter

God drowned everyone else on earth except for Noah and his family. 2:5, 3:6
God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death. 3:7
When Jesus returns, he'll burn up the whole earth and everything on it. 3:10

1 John

Jesus' blood washes away human sin. 1:7

Jude

"The Lord destroyed them that believed not." 5

Revelation

Jesus "washed us ... with his own blood." 1:5
Everyone on earth will wail because of Jesus. 1:7
Jesus has "the keys of hell and death." 1:18
Repent -- or else Jesus will fight you with the sword that sticks out of his mouth. (Like the limbless knight in Monty Python's "Holy Grail.") 2:16
"I [Jesus] will kill her children with death." 2:23
"Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." God created predators, pathogens, and predators for his very own pleasure. One of his favorite species is guinea worms. 4:11
"Thou art worthy ... for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood." 5:9
God gives someone on a white horse a bow and sends him out to conquer people. 6:2
God gave power to someone on a red horse "to take from the earth ... that they should kill one another." 6:4
God tells Death and Hell to kill one quarter of the earth's population with the sword, starvation, and "with the beasts of the earth." 6:8
The martyrs just can't wait until everyone else is slaughtered. God gives them a white robe and tells them to wait until he's done with his killing spree. 6:10-11
God tells his murderous angels to "hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of your God on their foreheads." This verse is one that Christians like to use to show God's loving concern for the environment. But the previous verse (7:2) makes it clear that it was their God-given job to "hurt the earth and the sea" just as soon as they finished their forehead marking job. 7:3
144,000 Jews will be going to heaven; everyone else is going to hell. 7:4
Those that survive the great tribulation will get to wash their clothes in the blood of the lamb. 7:14
God sends his angels to destroy a third part of all the trees, grass, sea creature, mountains, sun, moon, starts, and water. 8:7-13
"Many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." 8:11
The angels are instructed not to "hurt the grass [how could they? He already had all the grass killed in 8:7] ... but only those men which have not the seal of God on their foreheads." God tells his angels not to kill them, but rather torment them with scorpions for five months. Those tormented will want to die, but God won't let them. 9:4-6
God makes some horse-like locusts with human heads, women's hair, lion's teeth, and scorpion's tails. They sting people and hurt them for five months. 9:7-10
Four angels, with an army of 200 million, killed a third of the earth's population. 9:15-19
Anyone that messes with God's two olive trees and two candlesticks (God's witnesses) will be burned to death by fire that comes out of their mouths. 11:3-5
God's witnesses have special powers. They can shut up heaven so that it cannot rain, turn rivers into blood, and smite the earth with plagues "as often as they will." 11:6
After God's witnesses "have finished their testimony," they are killed in a war with a beast from a bottomless pit. 11:7
Their dead bodies lie unburied for three and a half days. People will "rejoice over them and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another." After another three and half days God brings his witnesses back to life and they ascend into heaven. 11:8-12
When the witnesses ascend into heaven, an earthquake kills 7000 men. This was the second woe. "The third woe cometh quickly." 11:13-14
"The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
God planned to kill Jesus before he created the world. 13:8
Those who receive the mark of the beast will "drink of the wine of the wrath of God ... and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." 14:10-11
Jesus sits on a white cloud with a sharp sickle in his hand. When the angel tells him to reap, he kills all the people with his sickle. 14:14-18
"The great winepress of the wrath of God ... was trodden ... and the blood cam out of the winepress, even unto the horses bridles." 14:19-20
Seven angels with seven plagues are filled with the wrath of God. 15:1, 15:7
The seven vials of wrath: 1) sores, 2) sea turned to blood, 3) rivers turned to blood, 4) people scorched with fire, 5) people gnaw their tongues in pain, 6) Euphrates dries up, 7) thunder, lightning, earthquake, and hail. 16:1
"There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast." 16:2
"The second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." 16:3
"The third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood." 16:4
God gave the saints and prophets blood to drink. 16:6
An angel tells God how righteous he is because he gives saints blood to drink. 16:7
"Power was given unto him [the fourth angel] to scorch men with fire." 16:8
Those who were being burned to death by God didn't repent "to give him glory." 16:9
"The fifth angel poured out his vial ... and they gnawed their tongues for pain." 16:10
Even after being burned alive, those nasty people wouldn't repent! 16:11
Christians will fight in the war between Jesus and those allied with the beast. 17:14
"They shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire." (Are they going to eat her first and then burn her?) 17:16-17
To punish her God will send plagues and famine, and "she will be utterly burned with fire." 18:8
God will send plagues, death, and famine on Babylon, and the kings "who have committed fornication with her" will be sad to see her burn. 18:8-9
Jesus makes war. 19:11
Jesus's clothes are dipped in blood and his secret name ("that no man knew") is "The Word of God". (I bet you thought it was Jesus!) 19:13
With eyes aflame, many crowns on his head, clothes dripping with blood, a sword sticking out of his mouth, and a secret name, Jesus leads the faithful in heaven into holy war on earth. 19:14-15
"Come ... unto the supper of the great God." An angel calls all the fowls to feast upon the flesh of dead horses and human bodies, "both free and bond, both small and great." 19:17-18
The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest were killed with the sword of Jesus. "And all the fowls were filled with their flesh." 19:20-21
God will send fire from heaven to devour people. And the devil will be tormented "day and night for ever and ever." 20:9-10
Whoever isn't found listed in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. 20:15
All liars, as well as those who are fearful or unbelieving, will be cast into "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." 21:8

And if you support the Pope's ruling, then let us not forget this monumental dictation:

Spoiler for Pope Urban 2 - Murdering in the name of God=Heaven:

1. Fulcher of Chartres

[adapted from Thatcher] Here is the one by the chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. Note how the traditions of the peace and truce of God - aimed at bringing about peace in Christendom - ties in directly with the call for a Crusade. Does this amount to the export of violence?
Most beloved brethren: Urged by necessity, I, Urban, by the permission of God chief bishop and prelate over the whole world, have come into these parts as an ambassador with a divine admonition to you, the servants of God. I hoped to find you as faithful and as zealous in the service of God as I had supposed you to be. But if there is in you any deformity or crookedness contrary to God's law, with divine help I will do my best to remove it. For God has put you as stewards over his family to minister to it. Happy indeed will you be if he finds you faithful in your stewardship. You are called shepherds; see that you do not act as hirelings. But be true shepherds, with your crooks always in your hands. Do not go to sleep, but guard on all sides the flock committed to you. For if through your carelessness or negligence a wolf carries away one of your sheep, you will surely lose the reward laid up for you with God. And after you have been bitterly scourged with remorse for your faults-, you will be fiercely overwhelmed in hell, the abode of death. For according to the gospel you are the salt of the earth [Matt. 5:13]. But if you fall short in your duty, how, it may be asked, can it be salted? O how great the need of salting! It is indeed necessary for you to correct with the salt of wisdom this foolish people which is so devoted to the pleasures of this -world, lest the Lord, when He may wish to speak to them, find them putrefied by their sins unsalted and stinking. For if He, shall find worms, that is, sins, In them, because you have been negligent in your duty, He will command them as worthless to be thrown into the abyss of unclean things. And because you cannot restore to Him His great loss, He will surely condemn you and drive you from His loving presence. But the man who applies this salt should be prudent, provident, modest, learned, peaceable, watchful, pious, just, equitable, and pure. For how can the ignorant teach others? How can the licentious make others modest? And how can the impure make others pure? If anyone hates peace, how can he make others peaceable ? Or if anyone has soiled his hands with baseness, how can he cleanse the impurities of another? We read also that if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch [Matt. 15:14]. But first correct yourselves, in order that, free from blame , you may be able to correct those who are subject to you. If you wish to be the friends of God, gladly do the things which you know will please Him. You must especially let all matters that pertain to the church be controlled by the law of the church. And be careful that simony does not take root among you, lest both those who buy and those who sell [church offices] be beaten with the scourges of the Lord through narrow streets and driven into the place of destruction and confusion. Keep the church and the clergy in all its grades entirely free from the secular power. See that the tithes that belong to God are faithfully paid from all the produce of the land; let them not be sold or withheld. If anyone seizes a bishop let him be treated as an outlaw. If anyone seizes or robs monks, or clergymen, or nuns, or their servants, or pilgrims, or merchants, let him be anathema [that is, cursed]. Let robbers and incendiaries and all their accomplices be expelled from the church and anthematized. If a man who does not give a part of his goods as alms is punished with the damnation of hell, how should he be punished who robs another of his goods? For thus it happened to the rich man in the gospel [Luke 16:19]; he was not punished because he had stolen the goods of another, but because he had not used well the things which were his.

"You have seen for a long time the great disorder in the world caused by these crimes. It is so bad in some of your provinces, I am told, and you are so weak in the administration of justice, that one can hardly go along the road by day or night without being attacked by robbers; and whether at home or abroad one is in danger of being despoiled either by force or fraud. Therefore it is necessary to reenact the truce, as it is commonly called, which was proclaimed a long time ago by our holy fathers. I exhort and demand that you, each, try hard to have the truce kept in your diocese. And if anyone shall be led by his cupidity or arrogance to break this truce, by the authority of God and with the sanction of this council he shall be anathematized."

After these and various other matters had been attended to, all who were present, clergy and people, gave thanks to God and agreed to the pope's proposition. They all faithfully promised to keep the decrees. Then the pope said that in another part of the world Christianity was suffering from a state of affairs that was worse than the one just mentioned. He continued:

"Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."

You cannot possibly have the confidence to say:

Originally Posted by Noogah

When God commanded an act of violence, he did not say to perform it alway, it was on the one occasion. Read the entire story before coming to the conclusion that one command meant that it had to be performed all the time to everybody.

..applies to every quote in that spoiler, can you?

There are far too many which are easily universal - and depicted so. These are not just quotes endorsing murder and killing, but also the despicable methods of Jesus himself. Let us also not forget how threatening and intimidating this is to a child as they are being told so while growing up. How can anyone doubt a child's loyalty to this? You may as well be holding a gun to their head.

A bit digressive, but it always angers me to see psychological trauma in any form. A child has not the intelligence to vote on politics yet, how can we expect them to decide the purpose and structure of life and the cosmos either?

~

Originally Posted by Noogah

If someone kills your daughter, you don't kill them back for revenge. If he is in the process of killing daughter, than shooting him is not revenge, or getting even, it is a defense.

But if your daughter was taught to be a good christian, then she would just turn the other cheek while being strangled. She ends up in heaven, the killer is forgiven and all is well.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

But if your daughter was taught to be a good christian, then she would just turn the other cheek while being strangled. She ends up in heaven, the killer is forgiven and all is well.

Church will harass and blame you though untill you tithe enough money for their summer trip to save sinful pagan souls in Hawaii.

*Adds Bonsay and Unelias to buddies list*

Bonsay, you don't happen to be Alextanium's alt, do you?

EDIT: NVM, my "buddies list" is glitchy as hell.

Okay, O'nus, I'd like you to pull out the verses that you are most confused about out of that copied and pasted heap of verses (most of which are being misinterpreted/grossly misunderstood) and I will be happy to answer you.

It's unrealistic for you to expect me to respond to each- especially since I know you didn't come up with it yourself. Find the verses yourself, and I will answer them myself. Otherwise, we can engage in a copy-paste match. I'll find you a random explanation for your random list of verses.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Okay, O'nus, I'd like you to pull out the verses that you are most confused about out of that copied and pasted heap of verses (most of which are being misinterpreted/grossly misunderstood) and I will be happy to answer you.

It's unrealistic for you to expect me to respond to each- especially since I know you didn't come up with it yourself. Find the verses yourself, and I will answer them myself. Otherwise, we can engage in a copy-paste match. I'll find you a random explanation for your random list of verses.

Thanks.

Yes, it is copy and pasted from something - but that does not invalidate the point nor deter the content. You simply have no other hope of arguing it other than attacking me in a very implicative way, or desperately rationalizing EVERY quote I provided.

You are saying that, in everything I quoted, it is all taken out context and misunderstood? That every violent and murderous quote is actually meant to be something else?

You will have to do some radical rationalizing for this, and frankly, it is rather sad. You cannot claim that I have misread the bible for I have read it with unbias eyes. You have not. In fact then, you have not read the bible as clear-minded as I have.

You have also ignored the point I made; that other people (if not many or all) acknowledge these violent parts of the bible as the true, undeniable, word of God.

I even followed it up with a quote from the Pope himself who utilizes the New Testament to commit violence - and a lot of violence; the first crusade.

But I am sure you have more authority, more understanding, and better rationalization than the Pope, right?

~

Noogah,

I will bite....

Here are 2 new testament quotes. Both CLEARLY state that Jesus himself said that he would return within a generation. Its hard to take these any other way than he is 1900+ years late and the second coming, and therefore xtianity is a FAIL:

"There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on earth nations will be in dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People will die of fright in anticipation of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these signs begin to happen, stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand." He taught them a lesson. "Consider the fig tree and all the other trees. When their buds burst open, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near; in the same way, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Luke 21:25-33 NAB)

"When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23 NAB)]

This is of course over and above what the nutter John wrote in Revelations that "the time of the lord is at hand" and that jesus would return "quickly" - again many of us struggle a little with how modern xtians consider a period of 1900 going on 2000 years is in any way shape or form "quickly".

Originally Posted by O'nus

Yes, it is copy and pasted from something - but that does not invalidate the point nor deter the content. You simply have no other hope of arguing it other than attacking me in a very implicative way, or desperately rationalizing EVERY quote I provided.

You are saying that, in everything I quoted, it is all taken out context and misunderstood? That every violent and murderous quote is actually meant to be something else?

You will have to do some radical rationalizing for this, and frankly, it is rather sad. You cannot claim that I have misread the bible for I have read it with unbias eyes. You have not. In fact then, you have not read the bible as clear-minded as I have.

You have also ignored the point I made; that other people (if not many or all) acknowledge these violent parts of the bible as the true, undeniable, word of God.

I even followed it up with a quote from the Pope himself who utilizes the New Testament to commit violence - and a lot of violence; the first crusade.

But I am sure you have more authority, more understanding, and better rationalization than the pope, right?

~

Dude. I just want you to shorten the list, okay?

Originally Posted by evildoctor

This is of course over and above what the nutter John wrote in Revelations that "the time of the lord is at hand" and that jesus would return "quickly" - again many of us struggle a little with how modern xtians consider a period of 1900 going on 2000 years is in any way shape or form "quickly"

Originally Posted by 2 Peter 3:8 (King James Version)

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Originally Posted by Noogah

Dude. I just want you to shorten the list, okay?

Why?

Are you actually reading my post?

~

Originally Posted by Unelias

Church will harass and blame you though untill you tithe enough money for their summer trip to save sinful pagan souls in Hawaii.

I have to laugh at this remark. I have been to many many many churches and not once have I ever heard any preacher harass you until you tithe anough money for whatever. actually all the churches that i visit tell the visitors not to tithe. titheing should be 10 % of your annual income, my wife and i pray about it a tithe what God tells us to tithe. The only "preachers" that really harress you to tithe are those looney ones on tv that are only on there to make money.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Are you actually reading my post?

Um, yeah? But that rediculously long list is something I cannot realistically address unless dramatically shortened. After all, it is not fair that you were able to copy/paste it in two strokes, and then I will have to spend five hours going over each one.

Deal: I don't mind you saying so much if you don't mind my ignoring you.

If you want a reply, keep it short enough so that I do not have to exceed forty-five minutes writing a reply. I do not have the luxury of copy/pasting an abundance of articles to keep you busy for hours on end like you do.

Originally Posted by davej

The only "preachers" that really harress you to tithe are those looney ones on tv that are only on there to make money.

THIS

Save that $1M and use it for something more useful than a pointless debate about religion. It's been done to death.

Noogah, you are ignoring my point. Even if you somehow rationalized eery quotation, my point would still remain. Other people, like the pope, use the new testament to justify violence, murder, and cruelty. It does not matter what metaphorical or symbolic interpretation you desperately conjure, my pout remains; theist utlize the new testament for violent and cruel acts.

And, as well, are you saying your rationalization holds more authority than the pope? Copy and pasting is irrelevant if you actually read my point. I provided that information to support, as evidence, what I was arguing. Pay attention.

~

Noogah

Im sorry but how does this negate the fact that your Christ/Messiah/Man-god said specifically he would return while many of his diciples were still living? :

Originally Posted by 2 Peter 3:8 (King James Version)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


All that your post suggests is that time runs differently for your god. This is in itself odd - surely he is every where at once? And has a plan for everything? Xtians usually respond with the "the lord comes as a theif in the night" to explain the stubborn total absence of any second coming.

The fact is that the NT has several direct and specific quotes that talk of Christs second coming within a very short time frame. It is now nearly 2000 years later......

Now if you had a quote that was much more specific - something like :

"And lo, the lord spoke to the diciples and said : Knoweth ye that I am most pissedeth with my son, verily his moment of doubt upon the cross was most wuss like. Know ye therefore that he hath been groundeth for 2000 years or until he grows some mightier balleths"

This is why the bibble is known as "The Bumper Book Of Contradictions". Any zelot can find a quote to prove or disprove any point. This is why quoting scripture as a response to an argument is a FAIL. All your quote shows is that your god has an even more tenuous grasp of time than my wife.

FAIL

But I am sure you have more authority, more understanding, and better rationalization than the pope, right?

Except that the Pope at that time was an imperialistic, political maniac who needed an excuse to mobilize an army. And, you know, genocide and all that jazz.

At any rate, I see your general point about violence. The world was a very rough place. If, to make his people known to the world, God's chosen were rough back and that gave glory to His name, so be it. My feeling uncomfortable about it changes nothing.

I am glad, though, that now maintaining the Hebrew's purity, (through violence,) no longer gives God glory in the way that spreading the kingdom, (through humanitarian/peaceful missions,) do.

It, (bloodshed,) did happen, though. It happened in the name of God. There were reasons for it. It was temporary. But it was also more than just an unfortunate means to an end, (as much as I'd like to believe that it was,) since it was commanded by the Lord on some occasions.

Evildoctor, slapping a FAIL sticker on the most widespread document on the planet because you feel it doesn't meet with your definitions of subjective words isn't the most... I don't know how to put it... conclusive? way to argue.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Other people, like the pope

I'm not the pope, and the pope's not the Christian.

There is a difference between Catholics and Christians.

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Originally Posted by O'nus

And, as well, are you saying your rationalization holds more authority than the pope?

No, but it certainly is just as relevant. His authority does not mean his opinion is a better one. He is entitles to his unbiblical prerogatives.

Originally Posted by evildoctor

Im sorry but how does this negate the fact that your Christ/Messiah/Man-god said specifically he would return while many of his diciples were still living?

He didn't.

Originally Posted by evildoctor

All that your post suggests is that time runs differently for your god. This is in itself odd - surely he is every where at once?

God created time, and therefore lives outside the boundaries thereof. Time means squat to God. I suggest that you gain a better grasp of the Bible, and the content inside of it before making a judgment of it.

Originally Posted by evildoctor

The Bumper Book Of Contradictions

You have yet to present any real contradictions.

Spockman has a point. Allow me to quote him.

Originally Posted by spockman

Evildoctor, slapping a FAIL sticker on the most widespread document on the planet because you feel it doesn't meet with your definitions of subjective words isn't the most... I don't know how to put it... conclusive? way to argue.