Thread: Nirvana and Heaven

Well, I believe in reincarnation; there is a sort of heaven too, but it's only a sort of rest-stop between lives. There's really not an "end" to everything...life keeps flowing, beating; the universe is a heart, and life is the blood it pumps.

I see life as more of a fungus, butting in on the otherwise squeaky clean finish of the cosmos.

According to the Mahayana Buddhist school of thought, Nirvana is often referred to as ‘personal liberation’. When things annoy you, or make you angry, the idea is that the anger and annoyance are mental factors that cause negative feelings. These negative feelings are what we attribute to suffering. So when someone has achieved Nirvana, they have gained the necessary spiritual realizations (mental tools and experience) to control these negative feelings so that they never suffer them again. Nirvana can be reached while one is alive, however, there are practices (Phowa) which try to guide the mental continuum at death time to the Pureland or pure ‘place’. Once in Nirvana, you experience no suffering, however, if you have great compassion, you continue to try to help others end their suffering as well. It is thought, through the powerful motivation of great compassion (known as bodhichita), the full enlightenment of the Buddha can be achieved to help all living beings get out of their cyclic suffering (called Samsara). However, once Nirvana is achieved, it is thought that there is less power in the motivation to help others as the person who has achieved Nirvana no longer is a part of the suffering of other beings.

It is thought that the only thing you take with you at death is the very subtle mind. The death process is thought to be very similar to falling asleep. The mind moves from a gross mind which is influenced by our gross senses such as sight and taste, etc... to a more subtle mind of emotions, and thoughts (as in dreaming). It then moves to the very subtle mind, which is thought to be the root mind. When falling asleep, the mind moves to the very subtle mind, and then back again to the subtle mind (dreaming) and then to the gross minds (waking). During the death process, the minds move to the very subtle mind, and then the anchor which holds the mind to the body is lost, and the very subtle mind moves on to be ‘reborn’ again in another body. The conditions in which you die and lived your life also dictate the direction in which your mind is going to go. Much like watching a scary movie before going to bed leads to nightmares; living a life of terror and violence leads your mind to ugly places when you die (throwing karma). It’s more complicated than that, but that’s the gist.

Try this website for more info into Buddhism if you like: www.kadampa.org

Hope that was helpful in some way

Originally posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Buddhists and Hindus beleive in Reincarnation and they also beleive that after a number of life time people will acheive inner peace or something and then they experence nirvana which is them combining with a greater and then experencing nothingness for eternity.

I believe this refers to the oneness princible. At a certain point you gain an ability to achieve oneness with all that exists. For this to happen you experience and become nothingness. It is not a state that you stay in forever. It is a state that can be achieved with your individualization and reflection or mirror from gods image. To merge as one with it as you always are and have been and will be. As there is alot to acomplish with your purpose and image of that oneness, Your will and individualization that is progressing does not at this point desire to stay in that state, even though possible, and descirbed as \"nirvana\". it does not become relevant and there is something you lose from being in this state. And that is you identity, This is where the religions here have it confused with Nirvana. The purpose of your life is greater than to achieve this state.

Originally posted by mujah
There's really not an \"end\" to everything...life keeps flowing, beating; the universe is a heart, and life is the blood it pumps.

I am plesantly suprised at your intelligence here, you are not far off with that analogy.

PhowaBoy, Interesting....

To be filled with unconditional, infinite universal love is nirvana to me. Wisdom and 'truth' will naturally follow (love and wisdom are inevitably connected, I'd say). I don't claim to know the exact nature of the afterlife or what happens after death or when we 'progress on' but what I do know is that rather than knowing this one should be at peace with yourself and everything around you. Once you achieve this inner peace it doesn't really matter what will happen, because you are free to begin with.

If your mind is stuck in a certain idea such as 'I'll go to heaven and meet jezus when I die' or 'I'll reincarnate' you're never truly (relatively) free. Yet, if you instead accept whatever comes and make the best out of it by being eternaly filled with love (and your own wisdom) you're much better off

Love is another aspect of truth, and a part of it. It cannot be seperated from it. Love/Nirvana/Freedom are all part of the same thing, which is what I mean when I say truth. How I define truth, many of you are not fully understanding.

I experienced nirvana for three hours at the Memphis Zoo a long time ago. I saw the simultaneous oneness, infinte complexity, rooting in nothingness, overwhelming serenity, and astounding beauty of existence. It happened at the beginning of a very stable period that came after the worst part of my life, and I was waaaaay into Eastern philosphy at the time. I was in Memphis for a transcendental meditation course. But on top of that, I am not sure if what I was experiencing was an acid flashback, mania resulting from realizing that the nightmare had just ended, a moment of true clarity, or some combination of those. I have been able to recreate small mimickings of it in sensory deprivation, and I came close to it when I was on mushrooms in Pensacola in 1999, but I have not reached the full effect since the zoo experience. I am working on reaching it in lucid dreams. I want to eventually be able to experience it on a regular basis.

Universal I remember you talking about this.

If you did experience something to this nature, I don't think you would be an athiest. I'm not saying you are infact, but its just a thought. A athiest has a hard enough time in meditation. Let alone experiencing some kind of spiritual revelation of oneness. You have called yourself an athiest before I think. If you do not believe in life after death I guess that makes you one.

Either way I think you misinterpret the experience. I highly doubt it was "Nirvana". As I said the state I believe is infinitely higher, so you can hardly label it so. You may have experienced something on the right track though.

After such a thing, I don't know how one could continue in the perception of, "death" as something real.

Originally posted by Nirvana Starseed
Universal I remember you talking about this.

If you did experience something to this nature, I don't think you would be an athiest. I'm not saying you are infact, but its just a thought. A athiest has a hard enough time in meditation. Let alone experiencing some kind of spiritual revelation of oneness. You have called yourself an athiest before I think. If you do not believe in life after death I guess that makes you one.

Either way I think you misinterpret the experience. I highly doubt it was \"Nirvana\". As I said the state I believe is infinitely higher, so you can hardly label it so. You may have experienced something on the right track though.

After such a thing, I don't know how one could continue in the perception of, \"death\" as something real.

Well, it didn't talk to me, and it definately didn't threaten me. It seemed like what the Eastern mystics describe, but it seemed like a scientific reality and not a religious one. And as I said, I think the experience could very well have been an acid flashback. It seemed like the clearest moment I have ever had, and I had a perception that everything is really okay, no matter how bad the illusions of horror seem. It was as incredible as what you mentioned, but I didn't associate it with a conscious dude. I associated it with a principle of existence that is far greater than consciousness. It is like there is this metaphysical ladder with unconsciousness at the bottom, consciousness on the next level, and this thing on the next level. The situation was no minor affair. It was the most profound experience of my entire life. I saw clearly that reality is immortal, but I didn't feel like the form that is my particular self is immortal. I didn't feel mortal either though. I sensed that I am nothing more than the oneness I percieved, and I percieved its immortality, going forever into the future and the past. In that way I saw some sort of immortality, but not in the sense that I have a particular soul, immortal and distinct from all other souls. It is almost impossible to fully describe. But mania with LSD sprinkled on top can create such experiences.

Nirvana has been played up by movies and hokey things to be different than from the actual religion. Nirvana is a state of enlightenment, but it's more of an inner peace....not eternal nothingness after death. no one knows what lies after death, accepting that and being peaceful and calm with life and all it's chaos is what Nirvana, enlightenment, is. I am in Nirvana, I am bothered and I hurt and all the other crap everyone else experiences, and I will die just like everyone else. The difference between me and alot of people, though, is I don't really mind. I'm not offended, or feel like I've been had. We all got a random throw of the dice to some extent, do with it as you best can and will.

You want to know what hapens after you die?

Life continues and does not end, and yes when you are ready you come back.

It's the big question, "What is the perpose of life?"

Think about it, we are sparks from God, created in his image. But if imbued with ultimate power, imagine the desruction that could be made if we didn't understand the conciquences of our actions. Hence a place was created just for that. A place where actions had equil and opposite reactions. A school if you will. Earth, life.

Now consider this. Do you have the capacity to learn all there is as you are now? Even if you had unlimited time? Your attitudes and beleifs alter your perceptions. Wisdom and knowledge are not the same thing. To gain wisdom and understanding one must experience it. One must live it to understand it. Can a man ever know what it's truely like to be a woman? To be pregnant and give birth? You can read all the books in the world about a subject and not understand it unless you have lived it. That also answers the next question, "Why can't I remember my past lives if they exist?" If one remembered, we would essentialy be the same person wouldn't we. The same attitudes, outlooks, and beleifs. To learn anything new we must forget past perspectives and see with new eyes.

And the after life is just a continuation of learning. Personally, if I believed that this was it and there was nothing more, I might as well put a bullet in my head now. What difference would it make? I have to believe that there is a purpose to all this and that life goes on.

Originally posted by Gastone Mojaisky
Buddhists and Hindus beleive in Reincarnation and they also beleive that after a number of life time people will acheive inner peace or something and then they experence nirvana which is them combining with a greater and then experencing nothingness for eternity.

Im not a expert on this concept in these relegions so there may be holes if there are any please point them out.

Heaven is a place you go to after not living a sinful life and this is place is supposed to be a paradise were you get everything you ever wanted at anytime.

The problem with heaven is that your not accomplishing anything you just get anything you want and just hang around.

Wouldnt the concept of Nirvana make more sence as to what happens after you die?

Im interested to read what all of you think on these concepts.

If the World is not 2 dimensional and simplistic, then why suppose that Heaven is 2 dimensional and simplistic.

And about the Buddhist and the Hindu beliefs in Reincarnation. Well, Buddhism has long been a dead Religion... a dry bone remant of what it had been. There has been no innovation or leadership in Buddhism for centuries now, unless you count the Dalai Lama giving speeches for booze and cigerette money. Hinduism though has experienced a great deal of growth and evolution, and not many of the foremost philosophers still jump on the Reincarnation bandwagon.

You see, what we do have is Biological Continuity from life to life. To suppose that each individual soul has an eternal and continuous existence that keeps jumping back into the Material World from the Spiritual World is to mistake the Unity of Life. The Oneness of Life does not admit to such persistence in the energies of dead lifeforms. But what we can see and understand is the continuity from father and mother to son and daughter. So the Rationale for Reincarnation is simply a Redundancy on the Biological Fact. Reincarnation is at best a metaphor.

Now, yes, some people may have Experiences of Past Lives, but these may only be Memory Packet Playbacks. A person does not have to have lived previously himself in order to be given a Memory Packet from some Soul in the Beyond who wishes to share a Memory with a Sympathetic Soul. The confusing thing about being give a glimpse of Somebody Else's Memory is that it plays back in the 1st Person -- "I" did this, and this happened to "me". But the trick here is that although you seem like having been the driver, it was somebody elses car. The "I" in these past life Experiences and memories was somebody else. A memory re-run from somebody else. It may show some resonance and sympathy from one soul to another -- birds of a feather -- but it remains that the two souls are distinct.

Now, about Nirvana. The original definition of Nirvana was extinction. Somebody once asked Buddha how he defined Nirvana, and he leaned forward and blew out the dining table candle. The Liberation of Nirvana is existential Suicide. Peace through the renunciation of all existence and being. In this, Buddhism is largely anti-spiritual and more a branch of Stoic Philosophy then anything but an attack against positive Religion. Of course, Mahayana Buddhism, from interactions with Early Christian and Old Zoroastrian Moral Beliefs, reformulated itself into a recognizable Religion, but had to effectively nullify the teachings of Gautama to do it. Like with any modern incompetent, the damage he can do is mitigated by promoting him beyond any position where any actual work can be screwed up -- kicking him 'upstairs', and Buddha was made into a God so that Buddha the Nihilistic Teacher could be ignored.

If we look at the developments in 20th Century Hindu Philosophy, particularly regarding the works of Sri Aurobindo Gosh, we find a positive view of Spiritual and Material Synthesis and Integration into Transcendence.

Leo,

No offense but I don't agree with you, at all. In fact, I think you are being abit rude and are offensive towards any buddhist that might be out there. Putting down the religion and the Dalai Lama's speeches as such is outright silly. He is one of the few sensible 'religous leaders' out there, and it hurts my heart anybody would describe him that way. But I don't feel like going for the counter argument.

In fact, it pains my heart the way people go about other people's religion/faith/ideas in general. Jezus would cry. Seriously. As would I Glad we have a seperate forum for this.

We badly needed a seperate forum for this. Spirituality/Religion is a hudge subject.
To leave it out of anything is kinda odd. Since it ties everything together as a whole.

As you can see its a pretty popular forum already. intelligent people are natually attracted to its core aspect. Which is defining truth.

Every subject is a part of this subject. In fact if you were to organize subjects, This would be the main folder, branching out into all the other subjects. This is the center in which all other subjects feed off. It is the source from which all subjects can be traced back.

Ofcourse Religion does not define the core aspect of the subject enough, another word needs to be used in order that the misconception is put to rest. Such as Spirituality. Even this word people do not understand. These are the terms that would accurately define the subject if its definition was generally understood, but it isn't.