Thread: A request of all Theists.

Haha holy crap.

+ 1 point for the atheists!

Hmm, I understand what you're saying.

I've often thought people come to R/S to talk and relate with their fellow theists, but I recently read the description and it says, "This forum is for any and all religious discussions and debates. This forum is unmoderated and closed to guests. We recommend you avoid this forum if you dislike intolerant, goofy religious zealots."

Nearly always, these threads just turn into heated debates.

I think you were the only one left, Xaquaria, anyway... but yeah. I mentioned this the other day. I'm interested as to what will happen.

Originally Posted by Xox

Hmm, I understand what you're saying.

I've often thought people come to R/S to talk and relate with their fellow theists, but I recently read the description and it says, "This forum is for any and all religious discussions and debates. This forum is unmoderated and closed to guests. We recommend you avoid this forum if you dislike intolerant, goofy religious zealots."

Nearly always, these threads just turn into heated debates.

It seems to me that even debate exists very infrequently recently, and usually it is just insults with the cheap veneer of actual discussion.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

It seems to me that even debate exists very infrequently recently, and usually it is just insults with the cheap veneer of actual discussion.

I agree, i'd love to have some real debates. Not just arguments bewteen two sides that lead to the same conclusion and questions. If people have researched or know about whatever it is they want to debate then that's great and everyone can have an informed debate not just "My side is better than your side. Why? Because i'm right your wrong." argument.

I'll agree with you on one thing, the RS section has gone downhill a bit. But the whole point is that its a discussion section, if someone posts criticism that you cannot handle, just don't read it.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

I'm not sure how well this is going to work, but I thought I'd give it a shot.

As some of you may know, I enjoy discussing/debating the merits, shortcomings, implications, and ideologies of religions and spiritual beliefs. Unfortunately, the R/S section on this site has degenerated into a festering stagnant pool of atheist elitism, comraderie, and general ridicule of anyone who may decide to stand on the side of the religious minded. Nearly every thread in that forum now is started by an atheist seemingly with the sole purpose of attempting to attract theists to tear down and bully into admitting that their position is invalid and irrational or simply to high five other atheists, thus building an impenetrable cliche. Never have I seen a forum dedicated to the discussion of religion so dominated by a shear volume of atheist anti-religious content.

What I ask of theists is, please stop posting in that section for awhile. From what I've gathered from many of the atheists posts, the only real enjoyment most of them get out of posting there is getting some sort of a rise out of theists and thus garnering some sort of sick satisfaction from someone else's discomfort. The only way I can see for that section to go through any sort of catharsis is for theists to stop offering any sort of reaction for the atheists to go off of.

To the atheists out there who will inevitably take this as reason to argue and attempt to belittle me; I'm not angry at you and don't think that I really can get angry on a web forum. I understand many of you have justified reasons for what you do. Some of you have some strong feelings against religion because of personal and ideological reasons that are no less valid than my own strong beliefs on the matter. The problem is, there is no longer any actual discussion because the nature of your arguments always leads to the same basic conversations. Even when I agree with you, I feel I must argue against, simply because you are so offensive in your manner of discussion and I really do not like to associate with that sort of thing. Many of the most active posters in that section are no longer seen, and I can only assume it is because they became fed up with the lack of respect that many members have been exhibiting.

Also I would like to point out that I posted this in the lounge instead of R/S because I am not looking for any argument on the issue and I will be attempting to have any and all derogatory and offensive posts in this thread removed by a moderator (which would not be possible in R/S).

Your views are flawed, and your God is an illusion.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Your views are flawed, and your God is an illusion.

Excuse me? This is a thread in The Lounge. Grow up.

I have seen nothing but acceptable debate in R/S. Sure, things do get heated at times, but such is the nature of human discussion. You claim to enjoy debate but are upset at all of the opposing opinions that you encounter. It sounds to me that you do not really want discussion, but rather comfirmation and praise for what you already believe.

You're not being persecuted in your beliefs when contradicted in debate.

Originally Posted by Sekhmet

I have seen nothing but acceptable debate in R/S. Sure, things do get heated at times, but such is the nature of human discussion. You claim to enjoy debate but are upset at all of the opposing opinions that you encounter. It sounds to me that you do not really want discussion, but rather comfirmation and praise for what you already believe.

Your not being persecuted in your beliefs when contradicted in debate.

Please refrain from posts of an argumentative nature, that is not the purpose of this thread. If you would like to discuss this, I will provide any reasoning and evidence you require through pm's.

Dude, I was expressing my opinion. If you cannot even handle someone else's opinion, perhaps you are far to immature for intellecual debate of any kind.

Your opinions are being expressed in the form of disrespectful personal attacks and are not welcome here. If you would like to continue, please do so through pm's. I can't request that your posts are removed as there are no moderators on at the moment but I will be doing so in the morning if you continue to try to start an argument. Feel free to post your opinions when they directly relate to the topic and are not about anyone's personal beliefs or character. Just to make sure you understand, the topic is the lack of diversity of opinions in the R/S forum and a request to theists to stop posting there until the bullying stops.

Please point out where I made a personal attack and how whatever I allegedly said constitutes as a personal attack rather than an expression of my personal opinion in context of the thread topic. Please also point out how my first post was off topic. No one is stopping you from making the first pm, but since there really is nothing to hide, please respond to this post here.

Let me point out that you are threatening to report me to a mod because you do not like my opinion. Please justify this threat further, without resorting to disrespectful personal attacks.

Thank you and goodnight, sir.

Please respect the purpose of this thread, and try not to resort to name calling, religious debate or trolling.

So far, I found something dodgy in someone's signature, which is being handled.
To everyone else: careful what you put in sigs. It can be seriously misleading.

IMO, Sekhmet isn't personally insulting anybody .. yet..

I'm keeping an eye on this thread

Originally Posted by Xox

Excuse me? This is a thread in The Lounge. Grow up.

Your excuse is rejected, and you have too long hair.

Xox and Marvo: Keep up the bickering and I'll have to delete your posts too. They're not helping this thread at all.

Beyond Dreaming already has a "only for believers" policy, which I lolled at when I first saw it. In R/S it is perhaps more justified. This would cause some segregation, but no one's claiming DreamViews is even vaguely perfect (nowhere near but, I digress).

A compromise: A policy whereby if a tag such as "[THEIST ONLY]" or "[ATHEISTS ONLY]" and if someone otherwise orientated posts argumentatively or stupidly in it, they are willfully condemning themselves to troll status.

Although R/S is unmoderated I think if 60-70% of people take this approach seriously, as an "In Good Faith"* semi-official rule, the troublemakers will be shamed into submission. If it still don't fix it, perhaps only allow such arguments in a limited thread, a sticky perhaps.

Whatcha think?

*Yes, yes, ha ha.

The tag sounds like a good idea. Hopefully others go for it

The only problem I see is that some people don't really care if they look like trolls. They keep posting anyway.

So, then we'll have separate thread for theists and atheists laying out plans for world domination.

That's not the way human progress works.

Xaq, you say you are not angry, but you sure do act like you are a lot.

Originally Posted by Sekhmet

I have seen nothing but acceptable debate in R/S. Sure, things do get heated at times, but such is the nature of human discussion. You claim to enjoy debate but are upset at all of the opposing opinions that you encounter. It sounds to me that you do not really want discussion, but rather comfirmation and praise for what you already believe.

You're not being persecuted in your beliefs when contradicted in debate.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Please refrain from posts of an argumentative nature, that is not the purpose of this thread. If you would like to discuss this, I will provide any reasoning and evidence you require through pm's.

Those two posts right there sum up the whole problem. There are a few people around here who think that they can't be disagreed with, obviously, and to do so is "being argumentative", or a lot worse. Why does anyone post in R/S if they don't want to debate, and can't handle even the most minor of intellectual disputes without falling apart? Xaq, if you wanted this discussion to be closed to everyone except those who agree with you, why aren't you the one using PM's to notify people? It's not like there are so many; there is a finite number of people arguing in there.

I think the real problem with R/S is the EXTREMELY thin skin of most theists. I decided to quit posting there because I felt like people around here are so emotionally weak that they are being driven to despair and who knows what else because I don't believe in their god(s). I obviously failed at my resolution, and first thing I know I'm causing people to go into clinical depression.

When I am in the minority with my viewpoints, which I usually am, I don't start crying when other people vehemently disagree with me--that is the position I have been in all of my life. Maybe that's the difference; you get a little tougher if you have to defend yourself sometimes instead of always being in the majority and having people agree with you.

You seem to have completely missed the point, Moonbeam, as is usually the case. The reason why I chose to tell sekhmet that I do not wish to argue about it is because I do not want this to become a thread about my personal beliefs or my personal reaction to the problem. The problem that I see is bigger than myself and my own reaction to what is going on. I have no problem with people challenging my beliefs, as long as they do it in a respectful way. I welcome it in fact.

The problem that I see is not honest debate, it is bullying tactics employed by a large number against an ever decreasing number. If you are going to deny the insults and belittling comments that wash over anyone posting theistic views in R/S then you are either lying or are truly oblivious to what is really going on around you and what you yourself are doing. Its come to the point that my personal beliefs are almost never questioned in R/S because I never get a chance to post them, since I constantly feel compelled to spend the bulk of my time merely advocating tolerance and respect of other people's perspective; something that should go without saying.

Many of the thin skinned theists you refer to are not necessarily hurt or upset about the atheist response, many of them are merely at a loss for what to say any more when no matter how many different ways they try to explain their point of view, virtually every response that they receive amounts to, "you are wrong. Your beliefs are invalid and irrational."

I said what I did to sekhmet because I don't want to discuss whether or not I am uncomfortable with people disagreeing with me because to me that is the norm. I have a habit of almost always arguing on the side of the minority. If R/S were predominantly theistic, you would perceive me as a much more atheistic person than you do now and if the theist majority was as disrespectful as the current atheist one, I would probably make an extremely similar thread targeting them.

I still stand by my assertion that very little actual debate goes on in R/S, and what is mostly present is attempts to break other people down. If you would like me to make a (very long) list of examples of this I can do that for you, although I would think that any rational human being would be able to see the evidence for themselves.

I'd also like to point out once again, that I am not angry. If there was even a chance that something like this could anger me, I would simply leave. The reason why I am going to such lengths is because I am severely disappointed. I genuinely like this forum and would like to be able to continue visiting it and still be able to discuss all of the things I like to discuss. If I were angry, I would simply walk away. What I am trying to do is fix things.

Originally Posted by Identity X

Beyond Dreaming already has a "only for believers" policy, which I lolled at when I first saw it. In R/S it is perhaps more justified. This would cause some segregation, but no one's claiming DreamViews is even vaguely perfect (nowhere near but, I digress).

A compromise: A policy whereby if a tag such as "[THEIST ONLY]" or "[ATHEISTS ONLY]" and if someone otherwise orientated posts argumentatively or stupidly in it, they are willfully condemning themselves to troll status.

Although R/S is unmoderated I think if 60-70% of people take this approach seriously, as an "In Good Faith"* semi-official rule, the troublemakers will be shamed into submission. If it still don't fix it, perhaps only allow such arguments in a limited thread, a sticky perhaps.

Whatcha think?

*Yes, yes, ha ha.

In certain circumstances this would be a good idea, but it doesn't solve the problem. I want to be able to discuss and debate with atheists and theists alike. I don't think that the forum should have to regulate individual respect from it's members.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I think the real problem with R/S is the EXTREMELY thin skin of most theists... etc.

Moonbeam, myself and others are trying to work out a viable and practical approach to an unhealthy situation that degrades both theist's and atheist's arguments, and the R/S forum as a whole for all members. May I remind you that this post is not in R/S, and for good reason?

Thankfully most people will have the sense to ignore Moonbeam's post, as it acheives nothing and is greatly unhelpful. You're only embarassing yourself.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

In certain circumstances this would be a good idea, but it doesn't solve the problem. I want to be able to discuss and debate with atheists and theists alike. I don't think that the forum should have to regulate individual respect from it's members.

But if this approach was required in Beyond Dreaming, it is only moreso needed in R/S. Discussion between (a)theists can still occur in untagged posts. I know it it not perfect, and insults the more responsible members, but R/S is a mess, and I cannot easily think of a cleaner (attempt at a) solution.

I do agree that it is worth a shot as a last resort, but I sincerely hope that it does not come down to that. As a worst case scenario, the only change this would cause is to force theists to predominantly post only in theist only threads which would effectively destroy a signifigant portion of what could otherwise possibly be a constructive conversation.