Thread: Richard Dawkins: An Atheist's Call to Arms(video)

Very cool video. Haven't seen it before. But I do also think that calling oneself militant atheist and "attacking" religion may seem so war-declaring that people will actually go into defense more instead of less. Still, it was quite entertaining and funny, I've actually never seen Dawkins as half-scientist, half-comedian before.

I like the new Atheist movement a lot, the Four Horsemen (Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett, Harris) I just made a thread about religious intolerance in this forum some time ago, and analyzed opposing views from other sources. I was eager to see if there are any real arguments against it. There are not.

Also, this made me go from agnostic atheism to strong atheism, plus intolerant of religious nonsense as a whole, no matter if extremistic or not.

Of the 4 people named above, I like Hitchens and Harris best in terms of presenting their content. Harris is a very rational and brilliant thinker, very eloquent and has very precise use of language. Hitchens is pompous, funny and direct, plus sometimes drunk. When Jerry Falwell died, he said on Fox "If you gave Falwell an enema, he could be buried in a matchbox". Hilarious. For the case of any biological and evolutionary relation with the questions of religion, Dawkins is obviously the best.

Anyway, I think Sam Harris presents the most profound vision of taking a new stance towards religion. And out of all of these, he actually addresses the issue of spirituality from a perspective of a practitioner. He's actually been on months of meditation retreats and has a conception of what a "secular spirituality" could look like.

If anyone is interested, here's a video with a good overview of his ideas (20 minutes, he's not the old guy at the beginning) http://youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOIImOoYM

Here's another, "Misconceptions about atheism": http://youtube.com/watch?v=rLIKAyzeIw4

He argues that atheists shouldn't call themselves atheists because it is not a philosophical position, but rather a completely nonsensical, empty term, used by religious groups to denominate non-belivers as "special interest groups".
He says instead of arguing "as atheists" we should simply use words like reason, evidence etc. So the term "atheist" is really as unnecessary as a term like "non-UFOlogist" or something like that. I found this inspiring because unfortunately I had never thought of it that way.

On the religious side, the best debater seems to be Denish De'Souza, a Christian. He'll tie you into philosophical and linguistic knots, but you can untie them.

Nice.

Dawkins has made me SO ANGRY at religious people. I used to be ridiculously tolerant. I've always been non-religious, but I never used to give two shits about what other people thought. Now I'm just pissed at the nonsense that people believe, and they cannot give a single shred of evidence to support anything that they believe. Could someone who is not religious please give me suggestions on how to not get worked up about this crap? I am serious. I don't want to turn into some angry, intolerant creep.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Dawkins has made me SO ANGRY at religious people. I used to be ridiculously tolerant. I've always been non-religious, but I never used to give two shits about what other people thought. Now I'm just pissed at the nonsense that people believe, and they cannot give a single shred of evidence to support anything that they believe. Could someone who is not religious please give me suggestions on how to not get worked up about this crap? I am serious. I don't want to turn into some angry, intolerant creep.

Haha, the same happened with me. It totally shifted my view. If some time ago someone told me that they believed Jesus is the so of god, I'd just go "whatever" and move on to another topic. Now I just think "What? You actually believe this nonsense? Has it ever occurred to you that there is no reason to do so?".

Well, about the getting worked up... I think you just have to be patient and show understanding for the underlying psychological structure. Also meditation helps. Be aware that religion is not the only type of shitty beliefs people can have, just the one immune to criticism. Just act like someone told you that they believed a pink unicorn was living in their toilet and ask for evidence.

Know that religions are not only from the outside but also from within very protected against criticism, so any serious believer will not actually listen to what you're saying. There's no reason to get worked up about that though. Jesus said that his followers have to expect to be ridiculed for their beliefs... He's right.

Show compassion for the fact that they actually believe that they could go to hell if they even try for a moment to take what you're saying seriously. It's like a constant flying Stalin in your head. And it's extremely hard to get around that.

Also, instead of getting worked up about what's wrong, focus on what are the positive values that you try to invoke in people, namely reason and evidence and intolerance for bullshit.

If you simply don't want to debate religion, shift the topic and also focus on other things in your head.

Thank you Korittke, your post really helped! BTW, have you seen the Q&A session with him at some Women's university? He gave terrific answers to pretty much every single question. After watching that video on youtube, I noticed that there was a highly viewed video of him getting (momentarily) stumped by a question. I really love how religious people try to take that moment as proof of anything. Just think about how many times they were stumped by questions. Yeesh.

I am so glad for the new atheists being so outspoken about religious nonsense. All four of them are great in different ways.

Mes, I don't know if this helps or not, but I always wonder how these so-called religious people are always more worried about being right, not feeling sorry for you, even tho they think that we will burn in hell forever for our lack of belief. That is always so funny to me.

I've had two weekends in a row of yelling at my Dad on the phone about religion; that's a little upsetting. Otherwise, I never get mad when I'm arguing--it's always just funny hearing a creationist try to talk science.

It is difficult, but I encourage all atheists to make their beliefs known. Do not be afriad of discrimination (yes, atheists are discriminated) or being threatened, insulted, or anything else.

Discussion and discourse is something we all should crave and yearn. As Jet Li says, "We practice to argue and fight others. However, it is all a process to learn yourself and develop as an individual."

Value conversation.

Do not be concerned or upset when others do not agree with you. This feeling of upset of likely caused by your kind nature for others to see what you have seen. Keep in mind that the other person is thinking the samething. Try and come to mutual conclusions and exploit your interdependence.

In God we trust.

The one person whom you can never lie to, whom you most easily and severely hurt, is yourself. Do not simply abide to a religion because of the community it offers. If you choose to join a community, find a way to join without compromising your beliefs. If you cannot come to a compromise; question what you are truly trying to join.

Effervescence is an exuberant emotion. However, you do not require God to feel it.

Many theists have told me that I cannot feel the "love" of God or what it is like to be constantly embraced by God. However, I ask them, would you wan to live an entire life in an inferior position to someone? Should you not be proud and happy on your own? Are you not possible of being happy without God? If no, why not?

I also encourage all Atheists to see my thread "life is an onus" (linked in my signature "What is the onus...?" as it is most easily related to Atheists.

I hope to join the psychology of religion and contribute to this venture. One person can make a difference. You are all significant. Science, in regards to chaos theory, shows that one person actions can significantly influence the world. Religion will show that you need to show enough patriotism, faith, or enough worship in order to be respected or revered.

Please, let your beliefs be known. There are many out there supporting you. We all want to venture truth forward, not backward.

I dream of the day that we look over our shoulders to this time of willful slavery. We are so close to severely individual providence, but so many deliberately hold themself back.

I will stop here, I feel too passionate about this but I like to think that I am very receptive to all forms of discussion because, if I am wrong or if there is a reason I should believe otherwise, this is what I want to hear in. This is what I believe; the venture of facticity and individual providence.

Each step you take walks with infinite freedom. Embrace this and take your eyes off the horizon. Express yourself.

~

I'm an uneasy ally of militant atheism--on the one hand I think monotheism is inseparable from empire and as such, the greatest threat to life on earth. Couple it with an impending apocalypse, and it's no wonder societies under its influence have shat over the face of the earth with no regard for life, human or otherwise. More personally, I have felt under occupation by the Gawd-phearing my whole life, growing up in more of a "village pagan" culture descended somewhat from our fractional Native ancestry and the land we hold in common with them, but mainly improvised.

On the other hand, I'm no materialist. I regularly call upon Avalokiteshvara, and revere his earthly emanations, including H.H. the Fourteenth Dalai Lama and H.H. the Seventeenth Karmapa. Since childhood I've practiced a kind of shamanic spirit-magic tied to the land on which I find myself, and considered my life one fleeting, corporeal extrusion of a primarily immaterial semi-entity.

So, on the one hand I see Dawkin's barbs aimed at a religious establishment and cheer him along, but then he would no doubt lump me in with the teapotters just for being amaterialist, despite the lack of absolutism and/or fundamentalism in my methods. I'm the religious equivalent of a bisexual: this whole theist/atheist dichotomy strikes me as bullshit.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

I'm an uneasy ally of militant atheism--on the one hand I think monotheism is inseparable from empire and as such, the greatest threat to life on earth. Couple it with an impending apocalypse, and it's no wonder societies under its influence have shat over the face of the earth with no regard for life, human or otherwise. More personally, I have felt under occupation by the Gawd-phearing my whole life, growing up in more of a "village pagan" culture descended somewhat from our fractional Native ancestry and the land we hold in common with them, but mainly improvised.

On the other hand, I'm no materialist. I regularly call upon Avalokiteshvara, and revere his earthly emanations, including H.H. the Fourteenth Dalai Lama and H.H. the Seventeenth Karmapa. Since childhood I've practiced a kind of shamanic spirit-magic tied to the land on which I find myself, and considered my life one fleeting, corporeal extrusion of a primarily immaterial semi-entity.

So, on the one hand I see Dawkin's barbs aimed at a religious establishment and cheer him along, but then he would no doubt lump me in with the teapotters just for being amaterialist, despite the lack of absolutism and/or fundamentalism in my methods. I'm the religious equivalent of a bisexual: this whole theist/atheist dichotomy strikes me as bullshit.

As an atheist, I am completely open to the plausibility of spirituality and other related fields. I simply do not believe there is any systemtically obsevable means that are reliable and cogent enough to cause a revolutionary movemeny (ie. learning how to heal with your hands - if it were true - ought to be able to become globally known).

Of course, the energy drawing within us all is something that can branch into further possibilities. This may simply be out of reach of our technological abilities. Or, as some of us hold firm, are being held back by religious faculties (ie. stem cell research).

Perhaps if it were not for the arrogance of religion, we would be able to speak telepathically or use telekinesis, perhaps even live on two different planets, or even (more realistically) clone. However, religion has been the stubborn bully against human development giving in only inches at a time and projecting their hatred vicariously through Atheists.

~

Originally Posted by Taosaur

I regularly call upon Avalokiteshvara, and revere his earthly emanations, Since childhood I've practiced a kind of shamanic spirit-magic

Cool, you're an atheist too.



..wait, what?

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Cool, you're an atheist too.



..wait, what?

lol, my point exactly.

I am having a difficult time getting over the injustice that is shown toward atheists. It's such a TABOO (as Dawkins pointed out) for anyone to speak out against religion. Then why is it okay for religious people to bash atheists?

I actually wasn't aware of the extent to which religion is fused with politics. At least I have the satisfaction of knowing that some people's beloved politicians have lied about their faith in order to get votes.

I feel that religion only exists because there are still a lot of unknowns out there. However, just because science can't (YET) explain something does not automatically imply that God exists!!

Once upon a time, people wondered why the sun and the moon moved across the sky. They couldn't find the answer, so they said, God must be moving them. Then, Newton came along and came up with a bunch of laws that showed exactly what was happening. However, he couldn't figure out how the heck the planets in our solar system didn't collide with each other. In the last chapter of his book, he said, God must be doing this. About 50 years after his death, another scientist came along (I can't think of his name at the moment) and showed, using Newton's own laws, exactly why the planets weren't colliding with each other.

You would think that people would learn from this. But no. So the theory of evolution isn't (YET) perfected. That must imply that God created us all.

I'm ranting. I'm so angry.

Edit: I must say, it's SO good to know that I'm not alone.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

Mes, you make so much sense.

Is that sarcasm I detect there? You shall burn in ze antheist's hell!

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

I don't want to turn into some angry, intolerant creep.

Just relax and let it take its course. You'll be numb towards human emotions in due time.

What pisses me off a lot more is the state of affairs over here in Germany:

- The constitution states there have to be religion classes, educating students in the confession of the religious community (What the heck?)
- Evangelical and Catholic Churches get huge fundings from tax payer's money
- There's a Church tax for all Germans
- Churches officially get a say in what religion classes should look like.
- There's no explicit separation of church and state, except that there is not to be a state church.
- In most parts of the country, the law states that in all schools students shall be educated to honor Christian values, beliefs and belief in God (What the fuck?!!)
- Religion classes mostly aren't neutral but from the position of the school's confession (there are hardly any secular schools). So that's either Evangelical or Catholic.
- You can have a Crucifix hanging in the classroom, but not a symbol of any other religion. Muslim headscarfs are banned (which I agree with) but you can still have a Crucifix, wtf?
- A number of teachers have been permanently suspended for presenting a critical view of religious beliefs (inevitably exposing them as complete idiocy).
- So basically the whole idea of religion classes is to tell students that whatever they believe in is true, no matter how stupid, and if you say otherwise, you're breaking the law and causing legitimate offense on part of the believer.
- It's much easier to get accused of hate crime stuff simply for pointing out that someone holds idiotic beliefs and calls them religious
- The Church is very intertwined with politics in general.
- One of the two major parties has the word Christian in it.

So USA is far ahead of us. You guys have the better basis, I believe. It is usually assumed that USA is like that super-religious collection of maniacs, but we're not that better.

In terms of making religion immune to criticism by legal means, we're far ahead. Instead of doing something against it, they're already starting to think of ways to bring more Muslim beliefs into school so as to make it more equal

So tax payers money now goes into... the teaching of the Islam! Just what we need. This garbage needs to stop.

Originally Posted by Seismosaur

The US is a load of religious maniacs.

It varies a lot from region to region. I grew up in Small Town America (tm), but most people were pretty apathetic about religion, and viewed regular churchgoers with proper suspicion. Religious whackjobbery was tolerated, but not taken seriously.

That was PA--one state over in Ohio, the whackjobbery is status quo.

eh it's not really a problem is speak your atheist views in England, we are increasingly becoming a more secular country. I really hope it happens soon because religious hatred is increasing. You can fights between Muslim and non Muslim gangs more and more. Obviously racism and other gang warfare is not always relayed to religious views but the social unease between Muslims and Christians( and others) in this country is apparent.

If we take my school as an example. It has roughly 1200 students. It is a Christian school and being Christian is preferred for entry. However if you live within a mile or two of the school you can also be excepted regardless of faith and they also offer a small number of "science placements". This is because for funding reasons they class themselves as a technology college, which means they like you if your going to be smart in sciences, so 5,5,5, at SATS in year 6 is a way in, along with proof your generally clever and take an interest in science and technology subjects.

Anyway, especially in the last three years, the amount of unease and bullying at the school has increased. I am in yr 12 now( i believe high school is 16-18 so i have just started that if your American) which means i am in the schools six-form college. This means we have our own building though many of my lessons are in main schools classrooms, so i spend time walking through main school. The kids steer clear of us simply because we are older and bigger then them, i haven't had any problems with them hassling me. However even in our six-form, the Muslim community has, in the large majority, isolated themselves from the rest of us. They will hang out in large groups in the way of the entrance to six-form, or hallways, it can be quite intimidating. They have never done anything to me or anyone else i know of, it's just kind of unnerving as they look behave rather aggressively to each other and look rather aggressive.

In main school however you often see similar "gangs" of Muslim kids going around the field( we are talking 15+ kids easily, sometimes over 50) hassling other kids. Whether it be taking footballs, circling groups of kids sitting down, even the occasionally attacking a group of kids. Basically being generally nasty to others.

This happened a little to me while i was in main school but by yr11( 15( for most their 16th birthday),so last year of middle school i think in America), especially because of PE( psychical education, foot ball, gym etc) the relations between us improved and they often preferred it if we had mixed teams with them in football. Now i always had two friends in their "gang" anyway so that's probably the reason i have never really been targeted or anything. Anyway while i was comparing Christianity to Islam i asked their whole group some questions, basically how they value all prophets with the same value, rather then for us Saints generally having an order of importance. So for them Jesus is important just like Muhammad is. Anyway i asked them if their nationality. They considered themselves either Pakistani( even though they themselves were born here) or Muslim. Now i explained the difference between nationality and faith but still they insisted being Muslim to them is like a nationality, so they are not English they are Muslim. Much like how Jews often consider their faith more of a nationality.

Interestingly enough they asked if i was Christian, obviously i said no i am atheist. That seemed to get a slightly more positive response/look from them then the look they seemed to have when asking me, assuming i was Christian. They then asked how i felt about Christianity in general, obviously i gave a negative response, noting the crusades and how i felt it was the more invasive religion. However i expressed the fact i felt all religions, including theirs, were false in my eyes and caused violence.So this obviously proves there is some tension. Mainly fueling by the current events from 9/11 onward i believe. This would support the visible increase in gangs and problems in my school over the last 3-4 years, since ore information of events is available and talked about now.

So this obviously is a problem that can only really be solved if there is no religion, since this is primarily where the aggression stems from. Obviously racism is a factor and that is not always because of religion, however i believe it is often linked, so no religion would at least help racism problems to a degree.

I think it's sad when religions cause so much discrimination and hate between groups of people that don't even bother to get to know each other. I just think, like the example of Norway, less religion creates a more peaceful existence for all.


SORRY if it sounds like i am targeting Muslims only for violence. Obviously Christians and other religions cause the violence to, but as an example in my school they seem to be the largest cause, so i used them as an example.

It seems to me that the number of Christians is increasing, and drastically, in the US. Anyone seen the new documentary about Jesus camps? Scary, scary stuff.

cuddleyperson, what percentage of England is Muslim?

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

cuddleyperson, what percentage of England is Muslim?

3% as of 2001.

About 2.8% of the population and yet it's the second largest religion in the UK. Hmm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_i...United_Kingdom

This is mildly interesting as well:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../nsharia19.xml