Thread: Total Goodness Plus Infinite Power Does Not Yield Suffering

I agree. God is allpowerfull and all-loving yet 'gave' us the ablitity to suffer. I can't stand christians talking about how all-loving god is supposed to be. Read the old testament (and some of the new). How blind can you get?

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Logic like this is one of the major reasons christianity is illogical. An all-loving all-powerfull being deliberately makes us suffer. Paradox up your B-hole.

The fact that our being is supplied with a living body involves suffering. If you want to get rid of suffering, get rid of your body. But this way you would be devided of any feelings whatsoever - pleasure as well.

Originally Posted by Rav1

The fact that our being is supplied with a living body involves suffering. If you want to get rid of suffering, get rid of your body. But this way you would be devided of any feelings whatsoever - pleasure as well.
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I don't see your body dieing of aids and hunger in africa, despite being 5-years-old and innocent to any sin.

Originally Posted by Neruo

I don't see your body dieing of aids and hunger in africa, despite being 5-years-old and innocent to any sin.
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I'm not talking about sins or innocency. Any religion has also nothing in common with it.
It all boils down to a simply body which is a kind of receiver through all its tastes. Sometimes it is a pleasure, sometimes a pain...

I'll tell you why if you tell me where it says so

Keeper, I think you're missing the point:
The scriptures, which you subscribe to, all the way to a fanatic level, claim that the Christian gawd is perfectly good and all-powerful.
If he is all-powerful, why didn't he create us in a way where we would not feel pain?
Don't give us the standard duality crap like Fajam did. The flaw with that is that, by definition, an all-powerful being would be the one that created all the laws of logic, and therefore created duality. Said gawd could have just as easily created new rules of logic which would enable a world without pain.
To quote Epicurus:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is impotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Whence then is evil?"

Originally Posted by Rav1

The fact that our being is supplied with a living body involves suffering. If you want to get rid of suffering, get rid of your body. But this way you would be devided of any feelings whatsoever - pleasure as well.
[/b]

So does that mean you agree or disagree with my point? My post was not about methods of getting rid of pain. It was about the illogic of the Christian God concept.

wait... so your saying that god would completely get rid of suffering. so if we get rid of suffering how can we know what not suffering feels like? there would be nothing in life but nothing. if we dont have suffering we dont have happiness. so that would be really great wouldnt it.

No, once again you're ignoring the underlying concept: Gawd is supposedly all-powerful (at least the Christian flavor). Why couldn't he create the rules of logic, and us, in a way where suffering was NOT needed as a duality so we could know what not experiencing it was like?

what you think Good is and what Good actually is are are not the same

not everyone thinks of something you think is evil as bad, and vice versa.

This is the concept: God is Good. As Creator, it is his perogitive to set the standerds of Good and Evil

Things against God are Evil. To say that God is not Good is to say God is a lier. How can He be a lier when whatever He says is truth (for what He says happens)

To say that Good is above God is to say that He didn't create Everything.

If He is Omnipotent, and what He says is truth, then He IS Good.
Suffering is almost always either a test or a punishment. With regard to man's crimes, it is mans free will to obay God (Good) or Sin (Go against God's commands. Evil)

With regard to the World and its creatures: Eden was a perfect world. If you take the Bible to be truth (just lets say that it is for now), then Evil only came in when man Sinned, going against God.

Wouldn't you punnish someone for disobaying you? And as Adam and Eve represented Humanity, we also live in this corrupt world because of there error.

I can already see your reply, so let me ask you: What if I AM right? Science has made errors before. No theory is without flaw, as history has tought us, and as the very word meens. The fossil records arn't exact, and no-one would dare to say that they are definetly 100% correct. Years ago, they had proof life started in Brition. Now they think it started right in the very place I live: South Africa. Who is right?

Originally Posted by Universal

So does that mean you agree or disagree with my point? My post was not about methods of getting rid of pain. It was about the illogic of the Christian God concept.
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I completely agree about the illogic of the Christian God concept, as well as about all availabe concepts of gods ever man has invented.
And talking about suffering, mind that the word "suffering" is very relative. Some of us find pleasure with doing e.i. complex stressing exercises and some of us are annoyed with a short walk.

Originally Posted by Keeper

what you think Good is and what Good actually is are are not the same

not everyone thinks of something you think is evil as bad, and vice versa.

This is the concept: God is Good. As Creator, it is his perogitive to set the standerds of Good and Evil

Things against God are Evil. To say that God is not Good is to say God is a lier. How can He be a lier when whatever He says is truth (for what He says happens)

To say that Good is above God is to say that He didn't create Everything.

If He is Omnipotent, and what He says is truth, then He IS Good.
Suffering is almost always either a test or a punishment. With regard to man's crimes, it is mans free will to obay God (Good) or Sin (Go against God's commands. Evil)

With regard to the World and its creatures: Eden was a perfect world. If you take the Bible to be truth (just lets say that it is for now), then Evil only came in when man Sinned, going against God.

Wouldn't you punnish someone for disobaying you? And as Adam and Eve represented Humanity, we also live in this corrupt world because of there error.

I can already see your reply, so let me ask you: What if I AM right? Science has made errors before. No theory is without flaw, as history has tought us, and as the very word meens. The fossil records arn't exact, and no-one would dare to say that they are definetly 100% correct. Years ago, they had proof life started in Brition. Now they think it started right in the very place I live: South Africa. Who is right?
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The God of the Old Testament is an evil, lying monster and responsible for all that is bad in the world. At least I would think that if I believed for one minute that the God of the Bible was a true portrayal of the deity, which I don't! The Bible was written by man for man, and I don't believe God had any input at all!

Originally Posted by loveapple

The God of the Old Testament is an evil, lying monster and responsible for all that is bad in the world. At least I would think that if I believed for one minute that the God of the Bible was a true portrayal of the deity, which I don't! The Bible was written by man for man, and I don't believe God had any input at all!
[/b]

I'm sorry, but I donr see how oyu can say that.

There is no difference between the God of the Old and the God of the New.

Well, there is One:

Jesus.

God. Kicks. Ass.

When you screw with God or His people, you better start praying (yes, I know. I made a Punny).

But Jesus lived on earth, and Died for Humanity. He says to God: "Father, Forgive them. They know not what they do."

The reason Jesus teachings differ from the old's is explained pritty well in the Bible: The rules of the old where made for immature Jews (I am alowed to say that, as I am also partually Jew, and I harber my Kin no ill will). THe rules Jesus set are made for mature beleivers.

Just to be sure we all get this: The Old was made for the JEWS.

The New was made for the BELIEVERS. However, the Commandments are rules that we must follow as well. You want a better discription of why? Go read the Bible.

Loveapple, please tell me where God:

Lies

Is Evil

a Monster

and responsible for all the Evil in the world?

I cant find any bits that say that, or show evedence of that (oh, and about the whole: Kill women and children, look at what they did to Soloman: the wisest man on the earth. Pagan woman made the smartist man who ever lived worship other gods.)

"Scripture is God-breathed"

Bible says it, so IF you beleive in the promis the Bible states, you believe that to.

You have to beleive in the Bibles promis to be een remotly Christian.

Originally Posted by Keeper

This is the concept: God is Good. As Creator, it is his perogitive to set the standerds of Good and Evil.

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I am just going to point out your little paradox. If god is the creator of all, he allso is before all. How can he be infinitely good, and at the same time create 'good' and 'evil' After he allready was infinitely good? A true higher being doesn't has anything to do with good or bad. If I create a software program with A.I. characters in it, that get extra kindness points if they eat ice-cream, that doesn't make me a better person if I eat ice-cream.

God can only be Good and All-loving by human terms, but basicly he is above that. Yet the bible says he is and allways was good. Paradox.

The bible and logic, philosopy, reasoning, debate, laws of physics, quantum mechanics, the (logic and most likely) theory of evolution, geology and moral values just don't get along.

For the rest, this is just once again turning into keeper and such spamming around some random made-up idea's why god is so great, and Tsen and such will put logical arguments against them, that will be ignored.

Good luck.

I'm sorry, but I dont think you follow what I'm saying.

What God does is good, because he declairs that He is good, and that what is against Him is evil.

I'm not spamming, and it isn't made up. Its in the Bible. If you think the Bible is made up, your choice, but you cant say I'm spamming and be taken seriasly.

So do you follow what I'm saying: If God does it, its Good.

Originally Posted by Neruo

For the rest, this is just once again turning into keeper and such spamming around some random made-up idea's why god is so great, and Tsen and such will put logical arguments against them, that will be ignored.
Good luck.
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My question for Neruo is "Why do you feel this so called logical argument deliberated by Tsen and such(more than likely the "such" includes yourself) will be ignored in the long run?"

Why are we missing God’s Nemesis? How is it that everyone seems so directed toward "well if God is so great and perfect why would he allow evil? or why would he allow suffering. Where is it mentioned that God is actually doing this? I would like to see where that is stated.

I've got class in ten minutes, I'll try and burn through as much of this as I can. If I don't get to a statement in this post, I'll be back on in the afternoon. Feel free to point out anything I've missed and I'll try to answer it.

what you think Good is and what Good actually is are are not the same[/b]

No, you're just redefining good as you go.
Definition: Good "beneficial: promoting or enhancing well-being"
There are undeniably things that your gawd has supposedly done that most certainly do anything but "enhance well-being". Noah's mythical flood? Gawd kills ALL of the people in the world, except for eight, because they're supposedly the only good people left (although note that immediately after the retelling of the flood, that it mentions how Noah is both a drunkard and likes to walk around naked).
Note that this means that gawd killed off MILLIONS, if not BILLIONS of children, babies and many, many moe that were still in the womb. That goes against the common good just a little bit.

not everyone thinks of something you think is evil as bad, and vice versa.[/b]

But there are still certain limits: By definition, murdering somebody is not good. (Note, MURDER, not kill: Murder implies killing without cause, and not in self-defense). Yet the gawd of the Old Testament has repeatedly murdered, and therefore is NOT good.

This is the concept: God is Good. As Creator, it is his perogitive to set the standerds of Good and Evil

Things against God are Evil.[/b]

Once again, you're just changing the definition.
But it's all rather irrelevant: Even IF your gawd's actions were automatically good, even IF he got to set the standards for what is good and what is evil,
I WOULD NOT FOLLOW HIM.
I would gladly accept the mantle of "evil" if evil was defined as going against a corrupt murdering overlord.

More later, gotta run.

Originally Posted by Ne

My question for Neruo is "Why do you feel this so called logical argument deliberated by Tsen and such(more than likely the "such" includes yourself) will be ignored in the long run?"[/b]

I didn't actually ment my by that. I ment the people that still have the balls to reply to everything the thiests post. I am just to lazy for that, I don't see the point.

And I do have the feeling thiests often ignore certain things. Some even seem to ignore the fact that carbon dating exist. Keeper tried to say that some evil animal (in this case wasps that lay eggs in other insects) only showed up after humanity came... I am sure some fossils can be found of Some 'evil' animals that existed before mankind. Allso, doesn't creatism ignore carbon-dating, fossils and such?

Why are we missing God’s Nemesis? How is it that everyone seems so directed toward "well if God is so great and perfect why would he allow evil? or why would he allow suffering. Where is it mentioned that God is actually doing this? I would like to see where that is stated.
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"He is before all things..." (Col. 1:17a, NIV)

"...the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." (Heb. 11:3b, NIV)

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God was before all, and god created all. That means he created the universe, so His rules apply in it. In our world he is all-powerful.

Have you seen him the last 2000 years?

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Some cool bible qoutations to end with:

Jeremiah 48:10 (NIV)
"Cursed be he who does the Lord's work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood."

And old testament qoute, just to easy to get the juicy stuff out of that. However the new testament really wants a family to be divided and actually at war with each other ^___^ Peace man, freaking Peace.


Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Matthew 10:34-37



Jesus said: "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Luke 12:51-53

I'll answer all your questions and statments on thursday. I really dont have the time right now to go through it answering all the questions with my exams looming. Thursday is the last holiday I get before my Bio (Oh, the Irony) so, then I will. But first ...

Neruo, WHO SAID THAT THE BIBLE WAS ABOUT PEACE?

It IS fulled with war, and bloodshed and so forth. I never claimed that it was about peace.

But that doesn't take away the message it gives: Salvation.

I see no reason why, based on a few people who make a clame, you should think the Bible is wrong. The few dont set the nature of the many.

for the rest of you, I'll be posing my answers on thursday.

4 billion people don't believe in the bible. 4 billion people are going to hell accoring to the bible.

Really Keeper, I feel sorry for you. You grew up so indoctrinated you see the bible as a fact, that hasn't has to be proven. Logic thinking doens't start with a 'fact', and goes of to find reasons why the 'fact' is correct.

The bible is illogical in so many ways.

And I bet you also never said the bible was free of contradictions and absurd things, Keeper?

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)

GE 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses.
EX 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses.

GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

GE 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.
HE 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.

GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.

GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."
EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "... who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."
2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love.
GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

GE 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord.
JE 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth.

GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.
GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.
NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.

GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.

GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.

GE 7:1 Noah was righteous.
JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous.
LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.
JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).
1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).
RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.

GE 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark.
GE 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?).

GE 11:7-9 God sows discord.
PR 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord.

GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world.
1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.

GE 11:12 Arpachshad [Arphaxad] was the father of Shelah.
LK 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad was the grandfather of Shelah.

GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born.
GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time).
GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years.

GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen.
EX 33:20, JN 1:18, 1JN 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God's face and live. No one has ever seen him.

GE 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel.
GE 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel.

GE 15:9, EX 20:24, 29:10-42, LE 1:1-7:38, NU 28:1-29:40, God details sacrificial offerings.
JE 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing.

GE 16:15, 21:1-3, GA 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.
HE 11:17 Abraham had only one son.

GE 17:1, 35:11, 1CH 29:11-12, LK 1:37 God is omnipotent. Nothing is impossible with (or for) God.
JG 1:19 Although God was with Judah, together they could not defeat the plainsmen because the latter had iron chariots.

GE 17:7, 10-11 The covenant of circumcision is to be everlasting.
GA 6:15 It is of no consequence.

GE 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession." GE 25:8, AC 7:2-5, HE 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled.

GE 17:15-16, 20:11-12, 22:17 Abraham and his half sister, Sarai, are married and receive God's blessings.
LE 20:17, DT 27:20-23 Incest is wrong.

And this list goes ON and ON and ON.

LOL

I'm going to enjoy this!

thank you Neruo! This is just what We have been waiting for!

Hope your ready, Neruo! This thursday, your questions shall be answered!

Originally Posted by Keeper

Wouldn't you punnish someone for disobaying you? And as Adam and Eve represented Humanity, we also live in this corrupt world because of there error.[/b]

What happened to our free agency? According to the Christian mythology, we all have free agency, the ability to make our own decisions. So why are we being forced to live in a world supposedly corrupted by two people's errors? WE didn't make the choice, why are WE being punished for it?
And NO, I would not punish somebody for disobeying me. At least not in the context you're implying.
No, I would not curse the entire earth, and all things that lived on it for the rest of its existence, just because two people did something I told them not to do even though I intended them to do it in the end anyways. If you think that I SHOULD punish them for that, you're just as cruel and sadistic as your imaginary gawd.

Originally Posted by Keeper

What if I AM right? Science has made errors before. No theory is without flaw, as history has tought us, and as the very word meens.[/b]

Yes, but that's why science is a continuous process. We refine the theories as we go, adding to them as we go. It is entirely possible that we will have to revise the entire theory of evolution. That does NOT imply that you are right: In fact, simply put, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to be right.
Yes, it is possible for there to be some "higher power". No, it is not possible for a Christian gawd to exist. You see, if a gawd exists, it is neither good nor evil, or if it is one or the other, it is not all-powerful. Otherwise, the world would not exist as it does.
The Christian gawd, on the other hand, is a pile of contradictory statements and backwards logic. It is NOT possible for a Christian gawd to exist as described in the Bible, because said gawd would contradict himself.

Originally Posted by Keeper

The fossil records arn't exact, and no-one would dare to say that they are definetly 100% correct. Years ago, they had proof life started in Brition. Now they think it started right in the very place I live: South Africa. Who is right?[/b]

One: Of course the fossil record isn't exact. It isn't exact because it isn't complete: We're only working with what evidence is available, and the evidence that IS available in this case isn't perfect. But that doesn't prevent us from drawing conclusions based on what information is clearly available from the evidence we have.
Two: Did you mean where humankind first appeared, or where life first appeared? Because if you really meant where life started, then it didn't start in either: Life started in the oceans, and way back then, the earth wasn't anything like what it is now, so pinning it to a place would be difficult and rather pointless.

Originally Posted by Keeper

Neruo, WHO SAID THAT THE BIBLE WAS ABOUT PEACE?

It IS fulled with war, and bloodshed and so forth. I never claimed that it was about peace.[/b]

Nobody ever said the Bible was about peace. But, once again, I will NEVER worship your blood-bathing, murderous, violent, sadistic gawd, and you shouldn't either. NOBODY should worship such a beast.

Originally Posted by Keeper

But that doesn't take away the message it gives: Salvation.[/b]

Salvation from what? Your own murderous gawd's rampage? Why should I worship the being that supposedly created all the destruction and chaos?

Originally Posted by Keeper

I see no reason why, based on a few people who make a clame, you should think the Bible is wrong.[/b]

I think the Bible is wrong because of the massive number of revisions it has gone through. I don't know HOW you manage to believe it is true, seeing as how it isn't anything like what it originally was.
Not to mention:
-Research has shown that the Old Testament was written by FOUR PEOPLE. So it isn't the creation of a long line of prophets, it's a mythology created long after the fact by only four people.
-The New Testament wasn't even written for nearly a century AFTER the supposed life of Christ.
-It contradicts itself repeatedly, as shown by Neruo's excellent post.

Originally Posted by Keeper

The few dont set the nature of the many.[/b]

Thank you for validating everything I said earlier. As I mentioned, we each have our own nature, our own ability to make choices for ourselves, but your imaginary gawd punishes us for decisions made by somebody else entirely, and punishes children, who haven't made any choices of their own, for what their parents have done.
Even according to you, we each have the ability to make our own decisions, but according to your mythology, we will be punished for somebody else's decisions anyway.

I dont know who told you tht the Bible was recreated lots of times, but you are wrong

Have you heard of the Codices? Look them up. You'll be amazed.

Originally Posted by Keeper

What God does is good, because he declairs that He is good, and that what is against Him is evil.

If God does it, its Good.
[/b]

So hypothetically, if God tortures a three year old for fun, it is automatically "good"? I disagree. "Good" involves NEVER creating suffering where it is not necessary. It even involves preventing unnecessary suffering when possible. If God is infinitely powerful, he could have created any system of existence he wanted and done it without any suffering and without any problems with no suffering. If he created suffering any way, that is evil. We would send humans to the electric chair and to prison for life for what God has supposedly done.

Originally Posted by Keeper

But that doesn't take away the message it gives: Salvation.

[/b]

Salvation from what God created. If I put you in a room to be tortured, but murder my son (self) who becomes a zombie so that you don't have to be tortured if you believe I murdered my son and turned him into a zombie and accept my zombie son/self as your "savior", how thankful will you be for the "salvation" I have provided? Would you take it as a sign of my infinite love?