Thread: A view on Genesis

Dont get me started on that we will never finish......

"God" is not a guy with a white beard up in the sky who controls everything.
When people say "I don't believe in god" they think of something to this description.
they think god must be this, or must not exist at all.

They say god does not exist but I believe in evolution. Mainly because it is silly to deny eveything that exists around us. They fail to recognize the cause of this evolution. They admit chemicals came together, but not that they came from anything intelligent. Or that it has any structure. Ultimately science proves and explains how all this works. Then it is merely your definition of god. Chance and chaos is an illogical theory.

back to what god is not.

God is not a particular angry or agressive entity, or ignorant fool that punishes and gets hurt, or is powerless to stop the suffering that 'satan' creates. He/she/it is not angry with eve or adam, cause they ate some fruit off a tree. (that is a symbolic story that has been misinterpreted)

Does not flood the earth because he decides they are stupid. but noah is ok and can talk to him. She does not send a special son down that is better than everyone else to save the people from what he created, then decides we are all sinful bastards anyway that must worship him. He/she/it does not plan and prepare a eternal hell for the naughty ones, if they don't obey petty rules in a book that has not even been interpreted in the right way. And then gets all sad because they are in hell and did not live up to ideals of perfection.

If one worships this god of the bible all his/her life, and follows what the church says the bible means because it is the word of god. He/she will not go to heaven and serve Jesus. Because you are probally to stupid to get anywhere near heaven, and you are not ready for a place that does not really exist anyway.

Overall God is not an idiot. Idiots only imagine what god must be like, and their conclusion is therfore idiotic. (sorry I take that back they are not idiots) God is not even what you think it is. The word "god" has become so tainted with stupidity, (ah, i mean lack of awareness) that people are scared to use it.

I'm not even going to start interpreting the bible it will take up pages and pages.

The Nature of G-d

I agree with you 100% NS.


I believe that if there is a so-called "God" he/she/it wouldn't want us walking around like zombies, like his slave... and he/she/it most certainly wouldn't send us to an eternal hell because we failed to do some stupid rule like forgetting to pray every day or whatever.

He most certainly wouldn't like the way things turned out, where no one believes in him because so many people have twisted around what he may or may not have said in so many different ways that it's not even funny. If there actually is a god, then he said one thing, and it will always be that way. Now, there's all these different religions with all these different beliefs that no one knows what to believe anymore.

Hmm I do not beleive that there is a god at all, whether it be single and defined, or a spirit or 'energy'. With reference to Genesis, I think that chance and chaos indeed played the main part when it comes to the formation of life. You can say the same thing thing when it comes to your own life - what are the chances that your mother met your father, that they actually liked each other, that they decided to have sex on that particlar night, that your particular sperm reached the egg? What's the chances that during meiosis the coromosones in your mother's and father's gammetes divided in that particular order, that during independent assortment they arranged themselves exactly as they did, and that during crossing over, the specific genetic information that was exchanged was the information that enabled you to be born?

I think it is entirely logical that life could have evolved from nothing, I don't really see any problems with it. To be fair though, I do not think that I have made up my mind entirely, and I will never blindly set myself into this beleif.

ROLLER

\"Hmm I do not beleive that there is a god at all, whether it be single and defined, or a spirit or 'energy'.\"[/b]

I'll leave that one alone

\"I think that chance and chaos indeed played the main part when it comes to the formation of life.\"[/b]

then you attempt to prove this...

\"What are the chances that your mother met your father, that they actually liked each other, that they decided to have sex on that particlar night,\" [/b]

(2 people having sex does not prove about chance and chaos, I dont think that is all they decided to have but anyway.....)

\"that your particular sperm reached the egg? What's the chances that during meiosis the coromosones in your mother's and father's gammetes divided in that particular order, that during independent assortment they arranged themselves exactly as they did, and that during crossing over, the specific genetic information that was exchanged was the information that enabled you to be born?\"[/b]

And all this as well of the rest of the universe is chaos, magic, and chance. With no cause, and no intelligence behind anything, no structure and no purpose? That reminds me of fairy land. It doesn't exist.

I think it is entirely logical that life could have evolved from nothing. I don't really see any problems with it[/b]

0+0= 1
that is not logical.

\"I will never blindly set myself into this beleif.\"[/b]

Put the 'I' (eye) before the 'E' (equation) if you are to believe (faith) and you will SEE, (truth) how its really spelt.

since I made alot of effort and edited this about 10000 times I have a sig now.

In conclusion.

Life did evolve. Through a 'editing' process of growth Into relative perfection, before moving on to the next phase or step on in a creation. Which made all things new. There is intelligence behind the process.

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
There is intelligence behind the process.

Prove it.

And by the way I'm not taking any side on this, I just want you to prove how you came to this conclusion because I could just say some random thing as if its a fact but you have to support that somehow.

NirvanaStarseed wrote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

There is intelligence behind the process. [/b]

[/b][/quote]

Prove it.

Nirvana wrote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

0+0= 1
that is not logical. [/b]

[/b][/quote]

Please try too read & absorb ALL of this, written by Bradybaker.

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NirvanaStarseed)</div>

0+0= 1
that is not logical.[/b]

No it isn't. But consider the very sensical equation:

(-1) + (+1) = 0

Just think about it for a bit.

<!--QuoteBegin-NirvanaStarseed
There is intelligence behind the process.

Ok Mr. Logic....where did that inane assumption come from?

Well I mean if anyone can convince me that creationism or 'intelligent design' exists, then I will believe it, as simple as that. So far I have not found an argument taht can convince me of that.

[quote]

(2 people having sex does not prove about chance and chaos, I dont think that is all they decided to have but anyway.....)

Yes it does, in fact it says quite a lot. It is in fact a prime example - if you understand the complexities in cell meiosis and sexual reproduction, you will see that the chances of you being born as YOU and not someone else is actually very, very slim. Despite these slim chances, it has happened and you are alive, without the need for there to be some divine force controlling it all.

[qutoe] And all this as well of the rest of the universe is chaos, magic, and chance. With no cause, and no intelligence behind anything, no structure and no purpose? That reminds me of fairy land. It doesn't exist.

How does that remind you of fairyland? I think that sometimes people are afraid to think that after everything that happens, we are all just mounds of atoms, and on the grand scale of the universe, really not that important.

[quote]

\"I think that chance and chaos indeed played the main part when it comes to the formation of life.\"[/qoute]
then you attempt to prove this...

Well ok, every scientific indicator so far points to the fact that life was created by itself from a few simple organic molecules - we don't know exactly how yet, but science wil hopefully get there one day. There have already been experiments in which scientists have created the conditions thought to exist millions of years ago when it is assumed that life formed, and subjected these inorganic molecules to heat and electricity (that would have been generated from lightning). They found that organic molecules can indeed be made - things such as glucose and numerous acids. These things could quite easily have formed into life, we just do not know exactly how yet.

As of yet, I do not know of one piece of evidence that links the formation of life to a higher or intelligent being. It may be highly unlikely that life formed from a few simple molecules, even though so far all research indicates it, but surely it is more unlikely that it is due to an intelligent enitity or being, of which there is no evidence and there are in fact no indicators to say that such a being exists.

eh that's all for now

There is alot to reply here.

I will start basic maybe do a proper reply later.

Atoms are actually made of something. And those particles go smaller and smaller and smaller. They Vibrate at intense speed. Slow time down, go into it. and you would see what is happening down there. It is like a different world . slow it down to the speed of light or slower. and you would understand the great mystery behind the atom.

Just because our level of science has not figured it out yet, does not mean you cannot use your common sense to come to a few basic conclusions.

For example.

Life has evolved.

you have the atom. then the mineral life, plant, animal, and human life. All this is built apon the previous creation. And animals can do all the things plants can do and more. Humans can do all the things animals can do and more. It is a step up...life is evolving.

If life is evolving, something must be evolving it.


Give an example how things can evolve this intelligently without a intelligent process behind it.

If there is nothing to start with, you have 0. not -1. 0.

If you have 0. You can only add 0. Because that is all you have.
if you add 0 to 0. You get 0. You cannot get a whole bunch of things out of no-where from 0.

That is where you robotic fantasy land doesn't make logical sense and ends. Right from the start.

I say it is fairy land because if you have 0 and add 0 and get 1. That is magic. and if you base everything on this concept. You believe in magic. chaos theory to evolve intelligent design is also magic. Impossible. So you are actually believing in a magical fairy land.

this is not how it works.

I am not talking about an being with a white beard creating everything. Please let that concept go.

I was reading Reader's Digest earlier today at work, and saw an interview with Tom Hanks...once question was about his view on the origins of the universe and the brilliance of outer space (cuz of the Apollo 13 reference). If it either had divine intelligence involved or was totally random, he said "Either one takes a tremendous leap of faith." I don't mean to choose either side, it never works, but that response really sparked my mind. Saying it's all random is the gruff intellectual answer for thinkers, but I can't go with it all the way, either. Hanks concluded with going extremely on either side seems to cheapen the view of the universe, and enjoys the mystery of it. Hey, I liked it. I just hope the cameras didn't catch me reading during work...

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
I say it is fairy land because if you have 0 and add 0 and get 1. That is magic. and if you base everything on this concept. You believe in magic. chaos theory to evolve intelligent design is also magic. Impossible. So you are actually believing in a magical fairy land.

this is not how it works.

Big bang theory? That's not 0's - that's random values. And lots of them.
And that's exactly how genetic and system specialisation works, from randomness comes order. If you want an example of it, look into genetic algorithms in computer science

Entropy is a wonderful law.

You cannot get something from nothing. What part of that do you not understand.

(As nirvana was posting before I was just thinking... where's Brady when you need him!)

Anyways... I plan to learn more about the evolution of the universe sometime... but right now I do not know (virtually) anything about it.... I soon expect Brady will make a lengthy post...

Originally posted by NirvanaStarseed
You cannot get something from nothing. What part of that do you not understand.

I think if you would care to learn more about the Big Bang theory you would find that it is not making 'something from nothing', but the matter was in fact already there - all matter in the universe today was compressed into a single point, called a singularity.

Roller I wasn't really talking about the big bang, but it does not matter if it was compressed or what form it was in. The point is, It was already there.

Your entire model of evolution just fell apart now.....
You can't say everything was potentially here out of no-where already, and at the same time say consiousness is an accident of a chaotic form of progressive events of chance resulting in a robotic universe. Life being the illusional byproduct of this chaos. You cannot say there is NO form of intelligence guiding the process and structure of everything, if you say it was already here to start with. that doesn't make sense.

It is illogical to have these two contradicting concepts existing in your mind at the same time.

Some say look at the bible it's the word of god.
others say look at our science textbooks. Its the word of how everything works.

Both have a lack of ability to think for themself and a lean heavily on outside authority, to tell them what to think.

Placebo

from randomness comes order.[/b]

It may seem like randomness to you. That is only because you do not understand it.
If there is order there is no randomness present. You cannot have it both ways.

If everything was already here. And there is order present.

Ones position of life/consiouness being a finite and illusional state, from the makeup of atoms and random evolution which had no beginning. Is not looking so good.

what does not have a beginning cannot have an end.

You could say the same for atoms....That they exist because they are made up of protons electrons. quarks ect ect. Which is made up of so and so. But where is the cause? You don't know, but you are pretty sure you exist because of these atoms. Even if you do not understand why the atoms are there. You are only willing to dig so far. Or are able to. And this is what makes you so sure life is an illusion and death is the reality. because you lack faith and vision. And you do not understand otherwise.

It is the other way around. Death is the illusion. Life is the reality.

NirvanaStarseed,

Have you considered the possibility of controlled evolution?
That singularity had to come from somewhere, sure. And we know that we CAN create something from complete randomness. I've done it myself on my lowly home desktop PC.

It may seem like randomness to you. That is only because you do not understand it.[/b]

In the experiments I have done, there was nothing to understand about a random string of 1s and 0s on my home desktop PC.

I can make random virtual 'creatures' on my computer, whose initial intelligence is completely RANDOM and USELESS (CHAOS), and then use genetic specialisation (read: survival of the fittest - simply speaking), it turns 'magically' into a very simple intelligence that can make it's own intelligent decisions. I did NOT design the intelligence myself - it emerged from choas and some simple rules as we see in nature.

If there is order there is no randomness present. You cannot have it both ways.[/b]

Of course I can - there was randomness, and through a process, order was produced. This process was neither micromanaged by me or magical in any way. It simply copied nature as we see it around us (ie. survival of the fittest, etc etc)

RANDOM -> Generic simulated 'nature' -> ORDER

It's possible, and I've done it myself in my spare time.

If everything was already here. And there is order present.[/b]

In the case of the big bang... who said there was order present?
It was a jumble of random chaos.
The only 'order' was that it was compressed in a singular point.

Ones position of life/consiouness being a finite and illusional state, from the makeup of atoms and random evolution which had no beginning. Is not looking so good. [/b]

Only because you don't seem to grasp genetic algorithms and evolutionary design processes.

As to the rest of your post - yes, we don't know what 'caused' the big bang, or even if the big bang is the honest to goodness truth of what happened.
Something had to be started somewhere, but that something could simply have been random chaos with some rules thrown in.

placebo

I can make random virtual 'creatures' on my computer, whose initial intelligence is completely RANDOM and USELESS (CHAOS), and then use genetic specialisation it turns 'magically' into a very simple intelligence that can make it's own intelligent decisions. I did NOT design the intelligence myself - it emerged from choas and some simple rules as we see in nature.

That is very cute.

maybe I will have the willpower to answer this and try and explain myself and get some kind of understanding about this between us later.

right now I'm totally drained.

this computer is like a haven now, somethig to give me a break, to escape from this pressure.

atleast its better than using drugs. I need something to keep me sane.







[/quote]

The computer makes me insane, actually.....

My last post went by unnocited but after reading more of this thread, found out that I wasn't really sticking with the topic.

Maybe we are creatures with random intelligences, but since we cannot see the big picture or context, we can discriminate what actions are smart or not. (as of being a survival mechansim, positive psychology reinforcement)

I'm not sure who would believe that something can come from nothing. An unlikely evolved formation to come from past material, yes, if that's what you mean, I agree. To be grown completely from no mass or energy, I'm very skeptical. Isn't the law of conservation applied here? You need something to start with, which is why everytime I ask some people where we are from, they answer with the alien meteor remark or evolution, but it didn't explain the origin of existence, only a potential one for US. Whenever I contemplate the universe, I couldn't believe that everything existing came from nothing, I'd always prick myself where the first atom or building block came from (because we don't know the smallest unit of matter, and probably never will)

Scuse me for being dense, I saw BradyBaker post a math problem/equation in the middle of this discussion (-1) + (1) = 0. I am not thinking so clearly, what are you getting to, man? Like, completely opposing forces are the result of our neutral existence?

Nirvana:

There is one gaping hole in your logic.

You propose that there is some intelligent force behind the universe. Where, when and what did this intelligent force come from?!

If, as you are suggesting, something complex needs an intelligent creator, then the intelligent creator would need an intelligent creator, and that creator would need a creator....I think you get where this is going.

P.S. Something can indeed come from nothing. It happens all the time actually.

P.P.S. Sorry my post isn't longer Kaniaz...I have to get up early tomorrow.