Thread: Why Bother Rationalizing?

Well firstly discussing these things can be very educational for atheists for many reasons: they learn more specifics about religion, they learn more about the people, they learn more about science.. well that's my personal experience, anyway!

There are certain fundamental reasons why atheists like to argue about religion. I, for one, see many problems in society which seem to be correlated with religion. Richard Dawkins was one of the people who really opened by eyes to that.

What you are saying would be a lot more valid if all theists kept their beliefs to themselves or within the privacy of their own homes.

That's my take.

My opinion is that people shouldn't be trying to prove or disprove anybodies particular beliefs but instead questioning the particulars thereof so as to get a better understanding of their point of view and perhaps lead them to question themselves about something they may not have thought of previously. That way you are more likely to derive some new insights out of the disscusions as opposed to merely regurgitating your own beliefs ad nausium.

Atheists can't exactly call themselves open minded either if all their thoughts immediatly preclude any potential "higher existance".

Originally Posted by Emerald Wolf

Atheists can't exactly call themselves open minded either if all their thoughts immediatly preclude any potential "higher existance".

I think that's an assumption made about atheists. There might be some people like that, but I doubt that any of them participate in the R/S forum.

It's just the fundamental claim that there's something out there but we can neither prove nor disprove it drives some people nuts. Logically, claims of those natures shouldn't ever be made, but the reality is that they are... and in big ways. So atheists sometimes have a very hard time discussing theories that aren't even valid.

Do you see what I am saying?

I don't find postulating something that we can't prove/disprove to be all that invalid as long as it results in some fundamental change in the way we should view things. Of course thats just for the purpose of theoretical disscussion and not as a means of enforcing any particular behavioural constraints.

Since I am still young, I still really don't understand how anyone could actually believe in a religion.

Most of my efforts in these areas are aimed at trying to figure out how religious thinking works (if there is any, which I'm beginning to doubt - I see much more religious assuming going on). I'm basically poking at them and seeing how they respond in a rudimentary attempt at mental dissection.

The end goal is that I will truly understand why and how people believe these things, and be able to tell why I don't, or if I should. Right now religions seem stupid to me, but deep down I'm reluctant to decide that that large a chunk of humanity is susceptible to something as stupid as this seems. I conclude that I'm still missing something, and poke some more.

I understand your frustration. But you just have to really think about a few things...

1. When you keep questioning someone's strong belief, it does become an offense after a while. Especially when sarcasm is thrown in which I literally see everywhere. It's just natural human tendency to not want to be wrong.

2. People aren't going to change overnight. This kind of stuff can take years.

3. You cannot blame the person for being raised in a religious home. They didn't choose before birth that they wanted to be a theist or atheist. You can't blame children for being brainwashed. And this will eventually lead to my second point should this person eventually begin to question their beliefs.

4. To say a theist rejects science is crazy. I don't know many theists in real-life, because honestly, everyone I know doesn't really care about religion, but for the ones that seem to pay more attention to religion... I would hardly say they reject science.

5. Rationalizing with theists and atheists. It cannot be done. The only way it can be done is if both sides admit that "they just don't know". But that's difficult to, and again would take time for someone who has a strong belief just to reach the middle.

Anyway, that's all I've got for now. If I can think of anything I'll add it, but I'm tired, and need some sleep now.

I'm not sure who you're posting to... maybe everyone in general?... but I thought I'd reply anyway.

Originally Posted by blade5x

1. When you keep questioning someone's strong belief, it does become an offense after a while. Especially when sarcasm is thrown in which I literally see everywhere. It's just natural human tendency to not want to be wrong.

I absolutely agree. However, that shouldn't be a reason for people to stop questioning other's beliefs, right?

2. People aren't going to change overnight. This kind of stuff can take years.

Yep. And I don't think anyone believes otherwise.

3. You cannot blame the person for being raised in a religious home. They didn't choose before birth that they wanted to be a theist or atheist. You can't blame children for being brainwashed.

I totally agree.

4. To say a theist rejects science is crazy. I don't know many theists in real-life, because honestly, everyone I know doesn't really care about religion, but for the ones that seem to pay more attention to religion... I would hardly say they reject science.

I have never seen a theist completely reject science in the broad sense of the term. You need to specify what you mean by "science."

5. Rationalizing with theists and atheists. It cannot be done. The only way it can be done is if both sides admit that "they just don't know". But that's difficult to, and again would take time for someone who has a strong belief just to reach the middle.

So far, I have never come across an atheist who hasn't admitted that he/she doesn't know everything. In my experience, it seems that theists are the ones who claim to know that god exists, yet they cannot back that claim up in any way. Atheists are saying the following: if you look at what science does know, all the facts point to the conclusion that there is probably no god. (And then theists go, "Haaaha, you admit that there probably is no god. That means that there is a god!"

In my view, humans are not inherently rational. Consistent, rational thought is something a person learns deliberately and methodically, and only a few, abstract subjects are contemplated rationally by most people, such as math and science, because they cannot be contemplated in any other way without making the knowledge useless.

This isn't to say that people are basically stupid. Geniuses are prone as well, because being irrational is an issue of emotion, not intelligence. People view concrete reality through layers of emotion, and it takes a great effort to penetrate that fog. Consistent rational thinking forces most people to confront facts about themselves and about the world that they may not be ready to accept without an emotional struggle.

As social creatures, we rely on our sense of identity, acceptance, and some degree of superiority, to feel fulfilled. Emotions fill that role, enabling people to see past their own flaws and those of others, smoothing the social mechanisms that we're all a part of.

That's my opinion, anyway.

Of every ten thousand sets of ears at least one or two will be connected to a head with a brain that knows how to listen.

So far, I have never come across an atheist who hasn't admitted that he/she doesn't know everything. In my experience, it seems that theists are the ones who claim to know that god exists, yet they cannot back that claim up in any way. Atheists are saying the following: if you look at what science does know, all the facts point to the conclusion that there is probably no god. (And then theists go, "Haaaha, you admit that there probably is no god. That means that there is a god!"

Well... I'd say there are two types of theists. The first type will probably say something like that. Totally fine to argue over that because that is faulty logic. The other type (like me for example) has "God" as a placeholder just for the unknown. Believe it or not, the more I learn about this universe, the more I believe there is a higher power. If you think the astronomical universe is impressive - it's nothing compared to the atomic universe. It's just so... beautiful and perfect.

I wish that most atheists would say what you said - but it generally goes like this... (and I'm applying to this DV)

case 1:

Theist: I believe in God.
Atheist: Care to explain?
Theist: [Inset whatever reason here]
Atheist: No you are wrong, God doesn't exist. Stop being so stupid and deluded.

or... case 2:

Atheist: Why do you believe in God?
Theist: [Inset whatever reason here]
Atheist: I'm not sure I understand, that doesn't seem to make sense.
Theist: *May take offense and say something negative to begin flaming*

But from what I can see, case 1 highly, and I mean highly outnumbers the the second case, at least on these forums it does.

I'm not sure who you're posting to... maybe everyone in general?... but I thought I'd reply anyway.

I was pretty much posting to everyone, while trying to address the OPs statement.

(And then theists go, "Haaaha, you admit that there probably is no god. That means that there is a god!"

Any normal human being... (not these hardcore religious fanatics), if they respond to you like that - it's most likely an age issue like I mentioned in my other post. Most older people, these people will not respond to you like that. They've had life experiences. They know the questions that are in your head because they have been there, whether it's an atheist or theist. If I ever get a response like that from someone, I'm done debating. I would let them mentally grow up a bit before continuing. A person who responds like that obviously has never really given serious thought about the question at hand - in which yeah... I totally agree with the OP - it's a waste of time.

The thing is, if people here make good and valid points, without trying to anger the other side - you did a good job. You've opened up the person to other possibilities, whether they admit it right away or not.

R/S cannot really be debated. You can only attempt to guide someone one way or another. THIS, is something I have learned through personal experience in the past two years of my life. I've heard every side - and yet I'm still somewhere off my own without definite conclusion.

Originally Posted by Emerald Wolf

My opinion is that people shouldn't be trying to prove or disprove anybodies particular beliefs but instead questioning the particulars thereof so as to get a better understanding of their point of view and perhaps lead them to question themselves about something they may not have thought of previously. That way you are more likely to derive some new insights out of the disscusions as opposed to merely regurgitating your own beliefs ad nausium.

Atheists can't exactly call themselves open minded either if all their thoughts immediatly preclude any potential "higher existance".

I have brought up this point before. I have been scorned that I can never truly believe in something if I always are in question of it.
It seems that everyone has an agenda. Even if it does not seem evident.
Lucid seeker.

Originally Posted by Lucid Seeker

I would love to help some people open their minds, but they unfortunately are not willing to apply rational thought to some of lifes biggest questions.

That itself implies that you are the one with rational thought and someone else is not. no? Also some people's faith eliminate life's biggest questions.

My comment just now, as I reread it seems to imply that the "biggest" questions are ignored by many people of faith.

Maybe it is like quiting an addiction. In order to change your habits, you must want to first. Then and only then will other logic seem more clear than the principles you have always followed.
The people that question their faith are more likely to come about different reasoning through discussions like this. Many others are going to - have the last word.
Man I am glad you said this. (have the last post) Per many discussion on some of these off topic Forums, that is what people want to do. It is all about them.
Their belief, what they have determined, what they read, me -I - they. And it is so very important to get that last post in because they do not wish to fail themselves. To making that very clear across the board. Sadly this works. Deep intellectual discussions most of the time, are in great lengths. People often only look at the contents and replies of the last page. This is evident by their responses. That is maddening. If you are going to discuss something, many of the details are lost this way.

It seems that you have to have a part of the you' involved in any discussion because it is precisely that. Your thoughts.
Well, your thoughts from someone else? ..aaah that is for another discussion.

Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

I think that's an assumption made about atheists. There might be some people like that, but I doubt that any of them participate in the R/S forum.

It's just the fundamental claim that there's something out there but we can neither prove nor disprove it drives some people nuts. Logically, claims of those natures shouldn't ever be made, but the reality is that they are... and in big ways. So atheists sometimes have a very hard time discussing theories that aren't even valid.

Do you see what I am saying?

What is the logic behind not making claims of that nature?

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

What is the logic behind not making claims of that nature?

Because claims of that nature include god as well as FSM, tooth fairy, easter bunny, dragon in my toilet, etc. A theory like "god exists" just does not work. It must be able to be proven wrong, but this type of theory cannot be proven wrong, therefore it's not valid. No scientist would ever even bother listening to someone who makes a theory that cannot be proven wrong... but they are forced to when it comes to religion. Hence, it's frustrating.