Thread: I need an army of lucid dreamers...

Great project, but I'm a tad confused with the rules?

Originally Posted by Highlander

Great project, but I'm a tad confused with the rules

I can't speak for Dreamviews staff, but this project has been discussed with the site owners and moderators, and as it's working in conjunction with Dreamviews members - to bring their views out into the wider world, and as it's also promoting the site, I think they felt it was a suitable project to be shared.

I'm sure Gab will be in a better position to explain Dreamviews position.

No...I understand completely. What I was hoping to read was something MUCH, much different. Something more akin to this:

"A group of 10,000 volunteers solicited from a popular lucid dreaming website were randomized and divided into four separate groups. These individuals were divided into four separate study groups randomized for age, sex, and physical location on the globe based upon data submitted in advance of the study. Male participants outnumbered female participants by 2:1. 13 months of weekly questionnaire data were collected and compared against objective data created by an android and iPhone compatible application distributed to the participants and collected at the center.

Each group was provided with one of four separate techniques thought to be advantageous at inducing lucid dreams. None of the participants had knowledge of what technique was being employed by other participants. The Lucid dreaming induction techniques were rotated through the fours cohorts quarterly. Investigators were likewise unaware of which of the four techniques were being employed by which participants until the 13 month study period ended, yielding a double-blind study.

Of the 10,000 participants, two died during the study. 940 failed to complete the weekly data's submission rate criteria and were eliminated from the study. Of those who did complete all phases of the study, a total of 900,000 periods of REM sleep were analyzed. Results for each of the four techniques are summarized in figure 1." Seasonal variations across the globe are summarized in figure 2. Age and sex were found to have no influence on either the incidence or length of self-reported lucid dreams in techniques 2 and 4. [Figure 3].

Etcetera. Now that would have been something of value I would have participated in...THEN you could write your book. What you have asked my help in ACTUALLY doing...not so much!

@doublehelix

No problem, I know not everything appeals to everyone - I'd be foolish to think otherwise. I'm sorry my project didn't match your expectations. So, I respect your choice to not be involved. Once the campaign is a success and there is funding with which to work with, then at some point in the future perhaps you'd like to get involved - when exactly the kind of thing you've mentioned will happen. Sadly, like I've already mentioned, things of value in the world take time to establish and require funding and foundations, so I've got to get to that point before I can make bigger waves. Still, the world has room for lots of different projects, if you're really passionate about your idea, you should really jump on it and make it happen! I'll do whatever I can to support it. With your medical background you'd have a great mind for it!

Hey dreamers I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way

It's kinda disappointing that u never really were part of the community until you needed funding. Even if this were to fail would you be active on DV? We like your efforts and work it's just if the mods were informed in advance this could have been rolled out more smoothly. It seems like it was a spur of the moment introduction.

The funding link should be removed unless you are paying for advert. Other than that there's nothing illegal here. People do group research threads a lot

Still, interesting thread

Hey Wisher, I've actually used the forums regularly for many, many years (since around 2007). My old account eventually died (lost the e-mail address and couldn't reactivate it), and I felt I'd prefer to sign up without a pseudonym after I discovered I could no longer use it (back in 2014). During that time I've been, sadly, too busy working to be able to be a regular contributor - and lurking seemed more suitable, as people would think I was trying to "use my name" or something.

I'll obviously be as active on DV as I can be, but I do have limits on my time - actually it's nice to have a good reason to come here, which I can justify as not simply self indulgent pleasure seeking! (for the same reasons, I also don't use social media sites... I've terrible self control and they're such an easy distraction from more pressing work)

The link works both ways, there's also a link to dreamviews on the kickstarter page, and I've also mentioned dreamviews in my previous book. Obviously, I'd never dream of asking for advertising funds from dreamviews for doing that, as I've always loved the community and felt it's, in some ways, the successor to the old Lucidity Institute forums (which were also great). I think it's fair, and the managers and moderators here seemed to agree with that also.

Well you've been here long enough to know then

Hey, good luck

Hey all,

As I don't consider myself as some kind of know-it-all, I thought it would be wise to ask you guys how you think we can best go about promoting this project?
Do any of you have experience with such things, Journalist contacts or have a natural aptitude for getting news out into the world?

As this is a project that is trying to side-step the limitations and restraints of publishers, the normal channels for promoting this kind of thing are less accessible - and making things visible is the currency of the world these days. It'd be really nice to show the world a bit of "people power", that things can be achieved from passion and not only a huge bank balance, or an investment from a company looking for a return.

I'd really love and appreciate any thoughts or ideas you have.

With this in mind, and just to ask for the simplest steps again, here are the details you can use to share the project...

This is the short link to the campaign: http://kck.st/1NSjUJN

Also, the super easy option, just one click...

CLICK HERE TO SHARE ON FACEBOOK
or
CLICK HERE TO SHARE ON TWITTER

Thanks again, and I really look forward to your ideas.

Now if this were a dream, it'd be a whole lot easier!

Given the hype and intended tension that was build up here and DV's "generous exception" to promote commercial stuff on DV, I'm disappointed in what was presented.
I was expecting nothing less than an interactive path to guaranteed enlightenment in order to muster an enlightened army to save and free the world

I backed the first book, anyways - I would also buy it without hesitation if I saw in the local bookstore. I also shared the campaign link.
I hope that the campaign goal is reached soon and Mr. Love can get to what he can do best (writing) and can stop capaigning. Having to "defend" this project all the time wastes resources.

BUT this case will be a leveling rule on how DV staff has to act on commercial projects and links.
It is no longer understandable in any way that links to useful information like manuals or (technical) documentation gets removed and posters warned, just because the product the technical information was about, is buyable for-money and on the other hand DV partners up with for-money campaigns. Well, DV staff can of course continue this practise. But not without gaming away the notion of being neutral.

Ok guys, let me see if I can answer some of your questions here.

Yes, it is in the rules that we don't allow soliciting for info or linking to certain places. Unless permission is given.
As you can tell from staff participating in this thread and from my answers to previous posts, permission was given to both.

Every person who asks us for permission to gather information on the forum is allowed to do so if they promise to share results with us, so all our members and not only those participating can benefit. And if they promise to mention Dreamviews and to link us from their project.
We don't allow links to commercial sites, kickstarters and such, because we (staff) don't have the capacity to judge what is for real and what is a scam, what is worthy and what is just some spammer linking his product.

Some may think that these rules are too harsh and strict. Do you guys remember that kickstarter lucid dreaming gizmo thing we allowed recently, because we are lucid dreaming site, right? Well it turned out to be a scam. If we didn't filter links and posts for stuff like that, this forum would be innundated with spam.

That above was an explanation of our rules, which btw, were put in place by owners, not staff.

Now some explanation about why was this project allowed.

Every request is judged on case by case basis. We basically go by above mentioned and other selection rules. Daniel Love is an established Lucid Dreaming author, so we ruled out this being a scam. He wrote to me in his PM that he mentioned DreamViews in his book "Are you dreaming" and he also linked to us from his site Lucid Dreaming Day where DV is listed under Resources. So yes, this is beneficial to Dreamviews, as publicity from a well known LDing author is a very good thing.

So please, no more attacks on OP and assumptions that there was no communication or permission. If there is anything else about this matter, please post in Talk to Staff.

Thanks for that clear explanation Gab - it's not my place to get involved in these things, still, I do understand why some members had concerns. Good to have it cleared up!

Anyway, perhaps now we can get back to discussing the project, how to promote it, and more importantly - who would like to be involved in the long term side of things!

Perhaps a good place to start would be if people could share what they feel are their skills, strengths, knowledge set etc. This can really be anything at all.
No need to by shy or hold back, I'm not just looking for expert artists, video makers or knowledgeable scientists - the voices of regular lucid dreamers are just as important. It may even be easier, if you feel there is a member of the forum who you are particularly impressed with, to nominate them. Not that this commits anyone to anything, it may just help get past some natural modesty.

Also, feel free to share ideas for what you'd like to see in the series, and what kind of research, events or anything else you'd like to be part of the bigger picture.

For those of you who have just stumbled on this thread, here's the kickstarter page that outlines the initial stages of the project: http://kck.st/1NSjUJN

@ gab: I for one never questioned the appropriateness of the granting of access to this forums membership by the DV staff. My position is that this forum is yours to do with as you please. I think I've been quite clear about the source of my personal disappointment - which is mine and mine alone and has nothing to do with how this site is administered.

As has been properly (if not repeatedly) stated, Mr. Love is an author and noted celebrity in the field of field of lucid dreaming. I was simply hoping to participate in something scientific, not commercial. That's where >>MY<< mind went when this thread was posted with the blessings of the administrators, especially since I was aware of the rules as they are ordinarily enforced. I doubt I was alone in that regard...and it's too bad I was wrong. There's been some seriously EXCELLENT studies of late involving nMRA testing of lucid dreamers that have helped map, through blood perfusion and oxygen uptake, the precise regions of the brain that need to cooperate to produce lucidity. I have the paper kicking around here somewhere....I was hoping this announcement was seeking volunteers for an expansion of that study to include additional parameters.

@DoubleHelix, you're right, there have been some truly amazing pieces of research in recent years which certainly deserve more funding, more work and to also be widely publicised. These are just some of the things I want to share in the books. I'm a writer/educator primarily, so I see it as my duty to use my platform to help promote the findings of those who are working in the areas you mention. Ideally, in the long run, once the project is a success, the funds generated will be funnelled directly into helping support that kind of research. It would also be wonderful if those who worked towards this, the community, were then also able to be involved in that research if they wished. Little, if any, of what I've done has ever been with a commercial mindset (I can think of much easier ways to go about making a living!), but occasionally one does have to use these channels and strategies in order fund or further more important causes. My goal, if anything, is to develop a passion and love for science, dreaming and our universe in the wider mindset of lucid dreamers. Not everyone shares our enthusiasm for these subjects, and I think it's important to remember that half the battle is showing people why it is so very wonderful and important in the first place. There is also the matter of a tsunami of misinformation to push back against as well. So these are my primary aims and I really hope that I can find the support to play my part.

Not everybody likes kickstarters, and that's fine. Just remember folks, that the latest lucid dreaming book you read wasn't for free, nor was the laptop or the phone that you are using to access DreamViews, or the sleep mask your are using for your lucid naps. Look around you, everything costs money. We are all making huge corporations richer by buying things we need. They are lucky to have funds to make new products. I could go online and buy Daniellove's book when it comes out, or I can support his project now and "lend" him some money to make the project possible. I will get my investment back in form of a book when it comes out. It's a win-win.

Asking questions is fine, but I think Daniellove presented his case and explained everything already as well as humanly possible.

Can we please get back on topic?

Originally Posted by daniellove

Anyway, perhaps now we can get back to discussing the project, how to promote it, and more importantly - who would like to be involved in the long term side of things!

Perhaps a good place to start would be if people could share what they feel are their skills, strengths, knowledge set etc. This can really be anything at all.
No need to by shy or hold back, I'm not just looking for expert artists, video makers or knowledgeable scientists - the voices of regular lucid dreamers are just as important. It may even be easier, if you feel there is a member of the forum who you are particularly impressed with, to nominate them. Not that this commits anyone to anything, it may just help get past some natural modesty.

Also, feel free to share ideas for what you'd like to see in the series, and what kind of research, events or anything else you'd like to be part of the bigger picture.

Hey DanielLove, very well produced video! Near the end you say you're a writer not a video presenter, but you could've fooled me with that video

I've gotta say, I absolutely love the cover designs for the books. They're gorgeous and totally the kind of cover that makes you want to display them on a shelf or around the house. I've shared the link on my social media areas and will do what I can to help and spread the word.

I'm excited for this project and what it'll bring down the road, will be fun to follow

The title of the series is "Lucid Dreamer's Guide to the Cosmos". I imagine if somebody wasn't a lucid dreamer, they would think the series is for exclusively lucid dreamers, which they aren't. Therefore, they would think the series isn't for them.

Authors produce simple how-to books because more people want simple how-to books. How will producing something other than what the majority want be successful?

Why are bigger and more powerful dreams needed to make lucid dreaming more useful and meaningful?

It says "Lucid dreaming, also known as 'conscious dreaming', is the ability to become aware within your dream, to fully understand that you are dreaming while dreaming." This is not true. Whenever one recalls a non-lucid dream, he or she is remembering a time they were aware within their dream. After all, how can one remember anything without having been aware of it while it was happening?

To fully understand that one is dreaming, they have to associate their awareness of the dream as being a dream rather what it's representing in the dream. For example, to gain lucidity during a non-lucid dream, if one sees a dog in their dream, he or she has to see the dog as part of a dream, not as a dog. Seeing more dogs won't help, unless they associate many dogs as being part of a dream rather than many dogs. Association and awareness are different fundamentals of lucid dreaming.

@Mismagius - Thanks! You have no idea how incredibly difficult and frustrating making that video was, so I really appreciate you saying it turned out well! Thanks for doing your bit to help spread the word, I think it's going to be an ongoing battle to keep the campaign visible as the internet is such a fickle place with an incredibly short attention span. So, if you can keep occasionally doing a shout out over the life of the campaign, that would be really helpful! Thanks for being a positive voice, it's sometimes hard to stay upbeat on a campaign like this, because it's often a battle against the odds. So, every little bit of encouragement is really refreshing and very much needed!

@dolphin Thanks for your thoughts. You may be right on the first point, but the series is indeed primarily for lucid dreamers and those curious about the subject. The series will still be accessible and useful for those who aren't, but as the title suggests, it will all be seen through the eyes of a lucid dreamer. In the sense that when a lucid dreamer looks at the world, they not only see the world but the inherent possibilities for dream exploration - the "what would I do if this were a dream?" moments. A non-lucid dreamer may look down a microscope and find what they see fascinating, but a lucid dreamer can also think "I'll visit that world tonight". That's an oversimplification of the concept, but you get the idea.

For your second point, my answer is: that depends on how you define success. If it is defined by how much money is made in the short term, then you're absolutely right, I'd be heading down the wrong path entirely. McDonald's is a huge success both financially and in its popularity, but I don't think anyone would consider them as successful in advancing gastronomy. I think I'd rather define success as being able to produce something of quality and depth with longevity. Perhaps that's naive of me - but I'd quickly grow to dislike myself if I only pandered to the popular, rather than improve a field I love.

In answer to your third question, the simple response would be "knowledge is power". If we consider our mind as a biological virtual reality system, then programming it with more detailed information gives it more to work with, and the chance to build dreams of a higher calibre. For a personal example: I'm an astronomer, as a child I had many dreams about exploring the solar system, they were all very enjoyable but not even close to a real simulation of the experience. As I grew and my knowledge of astronomy grew, so did the nature and quality of my dreams. Nowadays my space themed dreams are considerably closer to emulating what those real experiences would truly be like. The same is true of any experience that one wishes to simulate. I'd also say, that more accurate simulations have wider practical applications.

I agree with your next point, but you need to realise that the Kickstarter page as been through about 60 drafts, the first of which was several pages longer and suffered terribly from TL;DR issues. Sometimes you just need to simplify an idea into a short, manageable sentence - even if that means having to over-simplify. It's not the function of the Kickstarter page to educate the reader on the subtle semantic differences between awareness, consciousness etc. - the point of it is to advertise the basics of an idea. The books themselves are the place to flesh out all of these concepts in the detail they deserve. I'm with you 100% on this, and if you read the first draft you'd have been far happier - the problem is, it would have been utterly ineffective as a Kickstarter page. Dumbing things down goes against my entire nature, but sometimes it's the right thing to do in order to be able to get to the point where you can expand upon the ideas.

I see your point for my first three points. Thanks for clearing that up!

But, in the sentence describing lucid dreaming, if you simply added an "and" before "to fully understand", then the sentence would be accurate. I don't think adding one word would make the sentence too complex. This sentence underscores the biggest problem I see with lucid dreaming guides: equating awareness with lucidity. For example, reality checks are used to associate the dream with dreaming in order to acquire lucidity, yet many lucid dreaming guides equate reality checks with awareness. They'll say that if you aren't doing reality checks during dreams it because you're not aware enough and to gain awareness you have to do more or better reality checks during the day. But, reality checks have nothing to do with awareness, so dreamers take this advice and are confused why it doesn't work. I think clearing up common misconceptions like this is the best thing you can do for lucid dreaming.

Daniel, I believe you are truly sincere in your enthusiasm for lucid dreaming, and advancing the art, and anyone on this site who is a lucid dreamer should share in that.... I'd expect more support and understanding as it were. As one who has tried to get others motivated toward lucid dreaming (even my own family - and largely failed), I know the barriers you are up against outside of the lucid dreaming community.... if nothing else I would hope for moral support inside (and maybe like me the silent majority is indeed with you). C'mon guys! We're on the same team! If these books help get the word out, and lend some credibility to the lucid dreaming community, I'm all for it. I made a pledge and really hope you reach your goal. Heck, if it gives visibility to Dreamviews, it is worth it. This is my "home" site and I am so grateful this community is in place... I consider it my giveback to Dreamviews.

Hi Daniel,

I admire your enthusiasm and empathize with your plight. Anthony Peake, who writes in related fields and currently working on his eighth book, complains publicly about his inability to quit his day job for lack of profit as a writer. Unfortunately, you both have chosen subject matter that appeals to a very limited audience. My niece is a NY Times Best Selling author that inked a deal last year for close to double digit millions ($US), because she chose to follow her passion five years ago. Her specialty is romance and I would suggest your name gives you a great segue into a similar opportunity.

I am an artist, animator and video editor so I can give guidance as far as that stuff goes. Your art and video work looks pretty good so far.

Something I would like to see included in the book is the gravity reality check just like earlier books discussed why the nose plug rc works. I was talking in another thread about how the user Hukif uses it to great success. It works by feeling the subtle differences in how the body feels while dreaming. I would love to see research confirming his hypothesis that it is caused by interference from your sleep paralyzed body and confirming that it works consistently between dreamers. This would work well with your book because it would be included along side discussion on how gravity works in real physics.

Originally Posted by Rothgar

Daniel, I believe you are truly sincere in your enthusiasm for lucid dreaming, ...
... This is my "home" site and I am so grateful this community is in place... I consider it my giveback to Dreamviews.

What a wonderful post, Rothgar! You said exactly what I'm thinking and feeling. Thank you

Also, thank you RickM and MadMonkey.

@Dolphin - Thanks for the suggestion, I've done just as you've asked and added the "and". To be perfectly honest, putting the KS page together, and the endless revisions, became a little like when you repeat a word over-and-over, until it stops having any meaning. So little details like that were very easy to overlook. I appreciate your help, a fresh pair of eyes are hugely useful!

@Rothgar - Thank you so much! I'm not quite sure how to respond to such a lovely post, other than to tell you it means a lot and has helped make me feel considerably more positive. As you say, it can be disheartening trying to spread a passion and to have it fall on deaf ears. I think all lucid dreamers are used to this, but that doesn't stop it being frustrating. Thank you also for your pledge, we've made some great progress over the past few days - with help from people like yourself! Let's hope the momentum keeps going and grows! Also, I think you've picked a great place to call home, Dreamviews really is a very unique, important and special place!

@RickM - Yes you're right, it's certainly not an area one should enter to get wealthy. Luckily I'm a man of simple tastes and I've always found my personal idea of wealth isn't material, instead comes from working on something important, or the free things in life - such as lucid dreaming! You're not the first person to suggest I should write romance, or something with a bit more sauce - I'm not quite sure it's my style - but who knows what the future holds . Still, congratulations to your Niece for doing so very well for herself!

@MadMonkey - I'll make a note of your ideas, research them more when it comes to that point, and then do my best to include them in the relevant places. Perhaps we can do a little bit of casual Dreamviews based research into that area? When the campaign is over, remind me to get onto that! I'd also certainly appreciate your input or skills with art and animation. I'd like to develop additional material in the form of videos to supplement the books and your input would be appreciated.


@Everyone else - Good news: we're at 16% of funding after a very generous pledge today! It's good to have a boost so early in the campaign, but we really need to build the momentum. I've spoken with a few different organisations and media outlets that have agreed to help promote things, so that should help. If you can all keep spreading the word in any way you can, I'd really appreciate it. I think grass-roots is the best approach and can really help things go viral. Also, those of you who are thinking of making a pledge - there's still a few discounted "early bird" options, but they're limited, so I'd suggest snapping them up before they're gone - I'd prefer the discounts to go to members of the community. With that in mind, and to be true to my own ideals of spreading the word, here's the link to the page once again: http://kck.st/1NSjUJN

I've also updated my signature - so it should show where the campaign stands, and how much we need in pledges per day to reach the goal. Hopefully it'll give you a better idea of how things are progressing and the kinds of charts I'm seeing on the Kickstarter dashboard. Which will hopefully go some way towards explaining why I may be relaxed on some days and freaking out on others!