Thread: Lucidity on demand

I only asked for you to clarify because I wanted to help. And you are putting together Lucid dreams and not being asleep into one requirement which to be honest didn't make much sense. So I was hoping that you will use different words to describe what you are after, so hopefully we will understand.

i very clearly explained was my idea of lucidity on demand,and that sure as hell wasn't to have a lucid dream everytime you slept,what im trying to achive here,is NOT lucidity via SLEEP,

Lol, never mind all that below. I just found this: LUCIDITY NOT VIA SLEEP

Well, since this is a lucid DREAMING forum, I don't think you will find much help here. Because the way we lucid dream is via sleep, indeed. That's the only way you can dream.

If you want to have some imagery that may resemble dreams but without sleeping, you should look as it was already suggested, in some meditation forums. And perhaps you should stop calling what you are after "lucid dreams". Because clearly that's not what you are looking for.


Also, you are saying that you want to bypass SP. It wasn't clear to me if you still want to be asleep and dreaming while you have LD (only to bypass SP). Or by bypassing SP you meant that you don't want to fall asleep and be dreaming.

Because everytime you are dreaming you are in SP (REM atonia). Normally you don't notice it because by then you are asleep. But there is a chance of noticing it when you are WILDing or DEILDing, because then your body and mind are asleep and you are dreaming while you are still aware.

alij8000, would you say you are interested in hallucinating while awake without the use of substance but rather by only using the power of your mind? In this scenario, you could be seeing a dream, hearing a dream, perhaps feel a dream while not being in sleep atonia?

[Edit] Oops, Gab just said that.

I don't know to which extent this is possible but perhaps simply some forms of day dreaming and visualization can be satisfying.

^I was thinking the same thing. Think of us as "Spirit Guides.
Also, perhaps, it's like the spiritual enlightenment thing that Wisher was talking about in his thread. Either, way, you are better off doing your research and check your facts, alij8000.

@Threeofeight
yes thats true,now that you mention it,maybe we can use that dream-like state of mind to enter the dream world,like maybe imagining a gate and walking trough it,but i don't think it'll work,i've never tried so i'll try it tonight,maybe it will work its worth a try

@sageous
that was a great reply,you've got a lot of points that got trough,im going to take your example in how i do ''discussions'' ,
@ibeauty
your right in fact if i hadn't wasted my time with people who have no idea how to go beyond their own limiations , who are so entangled up in what lucid dream traditionaly means for them and not what it actualy is (a state of mind,an alternate reality experiance,seperate that with the concept of sleep and you will see just because lucid dreaming happens when you sleep DOES NOT mean lucid dreaming can only ever go with sleeping.)

in my experiance from these discussions i've come to an understanding that the vast majority of people who commmented here couldn't seperate the concept of lucid dreaming and what it traditioanly means for them,the problem is , your just too limited in your view of things,and your not willing to expand,so instead of expanding your view and seeing things the way they are,your telling me to be the same way as you,a blockage,unwilling to explore,which is goddamn retarded,

for the last time i urge you to expand your views,Lucid Dreaming,is not a Thing that happens after you sleep,its a state of mind,that you can achive,How many ways can you achive it? can you tell me that for sure there is no way other than sleeping and lucid dreaming and sleep are inseperable? but how can you be sure if your unwilling to explore it? why are you labeling it with words like ''enlightenment'' and ''meditation'' , regardless of how you achive a lucid state of mind,AKA lucid dreaming,its still a lucid dreaming experiance,This fourm should not be limited to your limited idea of lucid dreaming,and your opinion that i should try some other kind of fourm comes from your limited and strict view of lucid dreaming as a practice and not as an experiance at its core.

@gab
im sorry mylady if my tone was a bit messy when i replied to you,
i relize it was just a misunderstanding,
@spellbee
no there is no language barrier,there is only a diffrence in your core understanding of what lucid dreaming is,i see it as an experiance,you label and limit it to a lot of other things,(im not sure if thats reffered to as ''formatting'' if it is,then your right.)
thats why you get confused when i start speaking about it,because in your experiance,we aren't speaking about the same thing,but in fact,we are.

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

alij8000, would you say you are interested in hallucinating while awake without the use of substance but rather by only using the power of your mind? In this scenario, you could be seeing a dream, hearing a dream, perhaps feel a dream while not being in sleep atonia?

[Edit] Oops, Gab just said that.

I don't know to which extent this is possible but perhaps simply some forms of day dreaming and visualization can be satisfying.

hallucinating and daydreaming?
no,thats completely irrelevant,im talking about achhiving the same exact state of mind you are in when lucid dreaming,that same exact reality with the same exact vividness and experiance,nothing like imagination or halucination or daydreaming.
only this time,instead of having to put your body to sleep first to achive it,im searching for a way to achive it,and then put your body to sleep if you so wish it after you are alredy in that state,
i understand you may have problems imagining how this would be possible or even fathoming how this could be,but would you 100% sure rule out the possibility that you may achive such a thing?
think of it as aiming to land on mars in joulvern's book,it was impossible,everyone laughed,nobody could fathom it,there was no way,but it happend.
because someone did.someone didn't laugh,someone dreamt,can't you?

so basically for those people that DO belive in their spirit guides,this is a callout to you to try and find a way,ask your spirit guide!
and for those that don't,surely there are other ways of trying to achive such a thing!
your lucid dream world is infinium,why not use your imagination and try a thing or two in there? as long as there is a desire to achive something,we aren't beyond it,i've given up on trying to limit you to helping in a certin way,now i relize i have to first start a fire in you for this possibility to be seen at first,and then move from there.

Originally Posted by alij8000

@sageous
no there is no language barrier,there is only a diffrence in your core understanding of what a lucid dreaming is,i see it as an experiance,you label and limit to a lot of other things,
thats why you get confused when i start speaking about it,because in your experiance,we aren't speaking about the same thing,but in fact,we are.

I'm pretty sure I didn't mention a language barrier, I see LD'ing as an experience as well (I never, even once, said otherwise), and I hope sometime you might browse some of my posts, threads and even books to realize how limitless I personally assume LD'ing to be (I had to chuckle, in fact, when I read that you've decided I put limits on LD'ing -- I am quite the opposite, I assure you), but none of that matters, because I may have finally figured out what you are talking about.

Are you talking about generating a lucid state of mind during waking life? That is something I practice every day, and is well worth doing. I had thought you were talking about generating actual LD's, with all the imagery, dreamscapes, and activities that occur in the dream state; to me, doing this in a waking state is possible, but in the end it wouldn't actual be a dream, but more of an imaginative perceptual shift (which, as I said above, would be pretty cool). If you are talking about generating a lucid state of mind -- a sense of your "Here & Now" presence in your reality, an appreciation for that presence and your interaction with reality -- I really don't think you need a dream guide's input as much as you need to develop a self-awareness practice; looking into sleep yoga or Vipassana yoga might be a good idea.

If it was something else and I still have it wrong, then never mind; I will officially give up. I hope you understand, though, that trying to comprehend what you are saying or pointing out that dreaming occurs during sleep is really not labeling or establishing limits, but an attempt to communicate. Also, my disinterest in using a dream guide really doesn't mean I don't think they can exist (in fact, something like a dream guide fits quite nicely into my personal dream metaphysics). And again, I for one have always been a staunch advocate of the limitless nature of LD'ing, and regret it if my attempts to understand and help you led you to believe otherwise.

Good luck in your search, alij8000; and I do hope you start a thread to discuss dream guides, in the name of setting that search in a better direction for you.

Spoiler for Spoilered because I am not contributing to the discussion:

Originally Posted by alij8000

But would you 100% sure rule out the possibility that you may achieve such a thing?
think of it as aiming to land on mars in joulvern's book,it was impossible,everyone laughed,nobody could fathom it,there was no way,but it happend.
because someone did.someone didn't laugh,someone dreamt,can't you?.

I realize my contribution is not necessary but I just thought I might comment on your reply, just spoilered so people can skip it.

I am confident you can't be dreaming and awake at the same time, unless lying in your bed, only slightly conscious of being in a bed counts for being awake. You can't be walking on the sidewalk and dreaming simultaneously because when you dream you are unaware of your environment. That's dangerous. If you're not talking about that, many people here do things such as DEILD where you go pretty much straight from dream to awake to dream. That's as direct as it gets. We dream every night so I am not sure where the rush is to brush aside all the other physical phenomenon that occur in healthy sleeping people. Just wait a little, you will dream. Sleep is good too.

Also, I was surprised you said daydreaming is completely irrelevant. Done right, with more realistic expectations, it can be quite satisfying too. The reason it can't be more like dreaming is because you are awake and still responding to external stimuli.

Okay, I am sorry. I don't want to be one to walk on people's goals so I wish you good luck on your journey. I think you must be doing well with that very interesting going back and out of dreams experience. It reminds me of a dream when I was a kid. Good luck!

OK alij8000 Iv only had 4 LD in my life and 2 of them have been in the last 2 weeks since i started using this site and making my own dream journel, it would seem that just the fact that i am consciously thinking about lucid dreaming seems to be enough to push me into the lucid state from that moment on!!

The first time after joining this site i found that i was ok being lucid but everytime i tried to control anything (Even myself) it would cause me to wake up.....
It wasn't untill last night when i had a full blown lucid dream i was able to controll it for the very first time...

Now i found last night theat the trick was, is to find yourself a "DreamSign" this (In my experience) is the SINGLE most important thing you can do as it allows you to "Suddenly" realise that you are consciouse,. yet....DREAMING!!
Now for me personally, my dreamsign was simply to look at myself in the mirror...OR just see my faces reflection in any reflective surface whatsoever!
Now in my dream i had to practice to hold on to that lucidity as to much controll or action would attempt to awaken me, but i practiced and practiced untill i was able to keep the dream stable, again by continuesly finding my "DreamSign" whenever the dream started to dis-stabilise!

Also...there is a post in one of the forums that explains that if you completely still idf you should awak, it makes it far far easier to re-enter the dream from where you left of exactly. :-)

^ Please don't double or triple post. Are we limited in our Lucid and Non-lucid dreaming? Actually, you don't know what I'm capable of with dreams and such. I guess you can say that this is why I work alone.
<Invisible people tend to see through their heads but, do sleep.
I've heard that Buddhists talked about most people will be stuck in limbo or not realize they are dead but, lucid dreamers will have an advantage and be able to recognize it and then be able to change their environment however they see fit. Do you mean this? Any progress in your DJing today? How do you know that you are not dreaming, now? Btw, You don't have to stay here if you don't like it. You and not chained to this place, you know?

@Alij8000

I was hoping you will change your tone after you see our non-confrontational replies. But you have taken your tone to new heights.

It took you 2 pages to finally verbalize what you are looking to achieve. We can only answer to what you say, and you are still calling what you want to achieve “lucid dreams”. Even though now it’s clear that you want to have something while not being in sleep state.

If there is no language barrier (and if there was, that would be perfectly ok because we have members from all over the world with different levels of mastery of English), then you are just plain condescending and arrogant to think that you are the only one who knows about lucid dreaming and who is opened to expand their knowledge, push the limits and explore lucid dreams and all kinds of other dream and sleep related phenomena.

Because that’s exactly what this forum is all about. Had you taken your time and read up some of the posts, you would have known that. And you would have known that among people you are criticizing, one of them started to explore lucid dreaming probably before you were even born (judging by your posts), and one has several lucid dreams every night. Pretty much everybody here has some unique skill or knowledge and is eager to help you.

Maybe you should look at your posts and ours and see if you still think that it's us who misunderstood. Because the way I see it, it should be you doing the apologising, not us.

So if you want to continue in this conversation, communicate clearly without personal attacks. If you want to reply to what I just said, please post in Talk to Staff.

Originally Posted by alij8000

in my experiance from these discussions i've come to an understanding that the vast majority of people who commmented here couldn't seperate the concept of lucid dreaming and what it traditioanly means for them,the problem is , your just too limited in your view of things,and your not willing to expand,so instead of expanding your view and seeing things the way they are,your telling me to be the same way as you,a blockage,unwilling to explore,which is goddamn retarded,

for the last time i urge you to expand your views,Lucid Dreaming,is not a Thing that happens after you sleep

You don't have to urge us to expand our views. We have been doing it on this forum for years. And many members were doing it even before this forum existed.

And yes, lucid dreaming is a thing that happens when you sleep and dream. You can not dream when you are not asleep. That's the definition of a dream. This doesn't mean that there are no other phenomena that could be similar to dreams that happen when you are not asleep.

This is actually a very interesting topic. I'm sure bunch of people would love to have experience similar to lucid dreams while we are just taking a short break at work or "paying attention" to a boring speaker at a meeting, haha. Some kind of a personal Insta - VR. But since we are so “limited, not willing to expand, goddamn retarded”, maybe you should be asking for help on some other forum.

This whole thread reminds me of that lunatic "fundamental" guy we had ages ago.

Originally Posted by AstralMango

This whole thread reminds me of that lunatic "fundamental" guy we had ages ago.

I think that's unfair to say. alij8000 is responsive to people's comments. And he's not preaching, simply trying to have people share an attempt at dreaming without sleeping (the possibility of which is questionable, but that's all).

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I think that's unfair to say. alij8000 is responsive to people's comments. And he's not preaching, simply trying to have people share an attempt at dreaming without sleeping (the possibility of which is questionable, but that's all).

Dreaming without sleeping is impossible, though. That's what everyone is trying to say.

@sageous
what barrier ? that reply was meant for spellbee and im pretty sure it says @spellbee in there,maybe i made a mistake?
and unfortunetly i didn't get my point trough to you sageous but if you look at gabs reply she got my point and possibly stated it far better than i did.
@occipitalred
thanks for the defense xD
@astral mango
pretty sure lots of people said its impossible to go to the moon when there were no rockets in progress
and if i read that correctly you are refering to me as a lunatic,thanks for that,you've made your point as to how ... forget it,im in no position to judge another.
@gab
i was not trying to be condecending,mearly trying to point out whats been causing all this confusion,as you mentioned it took me 2 pages to get my point across,but thats only because you were closed to what i was suggesting.allright maybe not,maybe im wrong,maybe im an idiot,it doesn't change anything , my point is across,were finaly on the same page,and thats great,and again i apologize if my tone was wrong again,really i didn't mean to,just said things as i saw them,maybe im arrogant im not sure,but i have to seem arrogant if i want to intice you and keep you on this thread until i get my point trough,otherwise i'd not fullfill my original goal in making the thread in the first place. sorry about that i knew no other way.
@Ibeauty
the limbo,yes you can call it that,you could say im trying to achive an insta portal to limbo or whatever the lucid dreaming world we go to is without having to go trough sleep as a prequisite.

Any progress in your DJing today? How do you know that you are not dreaming, now? Btw, You don't have to stay here if you don't like it. You and not chained to this place, you know?

i will not lie,i've not had any LD's since my last one i think a few days ago,and not for the lack of trying,i think it might be my meditation thats preventing it,unfortunetly im not soppoused to be doing a certin meditation before bed if im to WILD but it auto-occur's and then i get insomnia,and when i get insomnia i can't WILD,which is how i LD 95% of the time.(this is the reason i want to find a way to bypass sleep as a prequisite in the first place,its the only barrier to infinite insta lucid dreaming for me)
your mistaken,i am chained to this place,by my mental state of desiring to share this with a community i think can very much contribute to my own personal progress,can i leave it alone? maybe,but i don't intend to.i do belive i can intice at least some people to try and move this process forward themselves.just getting this idea across is enough for me.(and look closely:i've alredy sucseeded in a few cases ! its a start bumpy as it maybe !)


@leeh
i cry everytime,
i understand you are new to this,but that doesn't mean i shouldn't include you into this,
what were trying to achive isn't how to normaly enter a lucid dream
assume that you could use your brain as a virtual reality machine and jump into a lucid dream whenever you wanted without having to be asleep first in order to lucid dream.
im trying to explore that possibility best as i can,starting with this thread,to make others think about it,and get them out of the blockage of ''no you can't do this''
like i said,before man went to mars a book was written at a time when there were no plans and no rockets to take them to mars,this book spoke of man landing on mars,decades later man started building rockets,and then finaly managed to land on mars,but at the time the book was published,it was deemed ''fantasy'' or ''impossible'',people keep telling me its not possible,but what do they know? nothing.

sorry double post,where is the delete button on these things??

Originally Posted by Occipitalred

Spoiler for Spoilered because I am not contributing to the discussion:

I realize my contribution is not necessary but I just thought I might comment on your reply, just spoilered so people can skip it.

I am confident you can't be dreaming and awake at the same time, unless lying in your bed, only slightly conscious of being in a bed counts for being awake. You can't be walking on the sidewalk and dreaming simultaneously because when you dream you are unaware of your environment. That's dangerous. If you're not talking about that, many people here do things such as DEILD where you go pretty much straight from dream to awake to dream. That's as direct as it gets. We dream every night so I am not sure where the rush is to brush aside all the other physical phenomenon that occur in healthy sleeping people. Just wait a little, you will dream. Sleep is good too.

Also, I was surprised you said daydreaming is completely irrelevant. Done right, with more realistic expectations, it can be quite satisfying too. The reason it can't be more like dreaming is because you are awake and still responding to external stimuli.

Okay, I am sorry. I don't want to be one to walk on people's goals so I wish you good luck on your journey. I think you must be doing well with that very interesting going back and out of dreams experience. It reminds me of a dream when I was a kid. Good luck!

Wait ,WAIT, WHAT????????
you had a dream when you were a kid that you were going into and dropping out of dreams conciously???
i understand i might look stupid to some people for reacting to this,but this could potentialy be important!
could you describe how you were entering/exiting your dreams in that dream???
did you have some notion of lucid dreaming back then?
describe with as much detail as you remember (i know it must've been a long time but in my experiance some dreams stay vivid for life)

Originally Posted by alij8000

i understand i might look stupid to some people for reacting to this,but this could potentialy be important!
could you describe how you were entering/exiting your dreams in that dream???

Ah, if you're referring to that DEILD technique they mentioned... they still FALL ASLEEP to get to the dream state.

Let me make something perfectly clear, alij8000. It didn't take you 2 pages to get your point through. It took you 2 pages to use correct words to finally say what you are trying to achieve. And that was only after sageous and some others suggested that what you are looking for is not dream while you are asleep, but some other images while you are awake.

You still keep saying how you are our savior that came to pull us out of our dark hole. To make us finally see the light and to start explore and open our minds. You say that's not your intent. Well then stop using those words.

And stop using the words "lucid dreams". Those are already taken. Dream happens only when you are asleep. Start using some other words, like "images or experience similar to lucid dreams". Because you can't have dream while you are awake. Perhaps you can have something else that is similar to LDs, but not dreams. Not because it's hard. Simply because word "dream" means images while you are asleep.

So, you are having hard times getting a lucid dream, that's what this is all about? You are looking for an easy way to get a lucid on demand, without proper practice, falling asleep, mental preparation and all that other boring stuff? Is that what’s standing in your way? Is that why you berating all of us here, because of your shortcoming? You can't LD so we are closed-minded?

Here is what you can do.
1. Stop generating words that are telling us how lame we are.
2. Focus on your issue.
3. Use proper words while discussing. Do not use lucid "dream", because dream by definition means images while you are asleep. As we have already told you, which doesn't mean you can't have some different kind of images while you are awake.

Originally Posted by alij8000

Wait ,WAIT, WHAT????????
you had a dream when you were a kid that you were going into and dropping out of dreams conciously???
i understand i might look stupid to some people for reacting to this,but this could potentialy be important!
could you describe how you were entering/exiting your dreams in that dream???
did you have some notion of lucid dreaming back then?
describe with as much detail as you remember (i know it must've been a long time but in my experience some dreams stay vivid for life)

I had this dream at some age before the age of 9 and I didn't know what lucid dreams were. However, I was conscious of my dreams and hallucinations at night, I knew what they were, that is, not real, and I enjoyed playing with both. There was this one dream once, where I was in this cave with lava baths and two lava people were throwing fire balls at me with ill intentions. Before the fireball reached me, I would wake up in my bed, so that the fireball missed me, and then I would fall back in the dream but at another place in the cave so it looked like teleportation, and then I would win the battle. I did the awake dream transition about 6 times. Now, writing this, and with the knowledge I have now, I can interpret this situation differently. The awake moments were probably false awakenings, still part of the dream.


Also, maybe it's worth mentioning that, people said humans would never go on the moon, yes. But the people who did didn't do it on demand. There was lots of work done to get there. A whole community of people worked on gathering the knowledge to perform that feat. And all the law of physics were respected to do it. And they did sleep.

The people who got on the moon did it in space.
The people who lucid dream do it in sleep.

@AstralMango
i was not refering to any such technique

@gab
it doesn't matter what your definition of a dream is,to me a dream is an experiance,
and im thankfull some on this thread actualy share it.
its an experiance of an alternate reality,sleeping is for your body,dreaming is for your mind,if you cannot diffrentiate,that is your view not mine,and if we can't be open to each others views,then perhaps its better neighter of us enforced it on the other.
in any case,im not intrested in arguing with you,as i said before,i may have been arrogant or wrong in any way you may wish to think,
im allright with that,
you may wish to spend your time plunging deeper into my motives for this,and give me advice that i don't need as i've clearly explained why i was having trouble LDing only for the past few days,after this thread was made mind you.
or i don't know sting at me some other way,but trust me,you will not find any care for it.

@occipitalred
thank you for the reply my friend,and in great detail,are you sure they were false awakenings and not you actualy going back and fourth between the dream and awakening on demand?
the possibility is there if you are willing to be open to it,there is no way to be sure.

also its very limiting to say something like ''The people who got on the moon did it in space.
The people who lucid dream do it in sleep.''

and i don't understand how you don't see its irrelevant to our case here,sure we traditionaly lucid dream in sleep,but to think thats the only way is very very limiting,and your basically killing the possibility here.
how many ways in lucid dreams can you make a dream character? before i knew that you could pull a dream character out of a mirror,i tought there is only one way,i had never explored the possibility of another way,and that limited me,but it by no means meant that there was no other way,had no one else found another way before me,it would've been possible i'd never have found the mirror trick,because of that limitation i had set for myself,i'd have never tried anything else because i was so identified with the way i usually did it,in the same way wouldn't you agree that limiting yourself,regardless of how much your sure of something,is a bad thing?
sure you can say ok this is how we do it normally,but to deny another possibility and deny yourself even the chance to explore it should it exist? i find it difficult to comprehend.i mean why? im geniunly intrested in why you would be so protective of this idea,i mean your clearly putting some thinking into convincing me i shouldn't explore this possibility,but i don't find a reason for it no matter how hard i think...

Originally Posted by alij8000

@occipitalred
thank you for the reply my friend,and in great detail,are you sure they were false awakenings and not you actually going back and fourth between the dream and awakening on demand?
there is the possibility,there is no way to be

Only when I wrote to you did it dawn on me that I was experiencing false awakenings rather than actually bouncing back and forth from the wakefulness to dream. Just because that makes a lot of sense. I also have a memory of a very vivid false awakening I had at the time so it makes sense. But like I said, I had visual hallucinations at night time at that age where the images I saw were as vivid whether my eyes were open or closed. That's why at the time I didn't think there was a problem with merging wakefulness and dream so much. That's why I brought up hallucinations earlier. However, it could be possible that I was waking and falling asleep as I have often had the experience of waking up slowly while the dream is still going on while I am laying in my bed. That's just the transition from dreaming/sleeping to wakefulness. And in the same way, if you DEILD, you can go very fast from wake to dreaming/sleeping.

Originally Posted by alij8000

also its very limiting to say something like ''The people who got on the moon did it in space.
The people who lucid dream do it in sleep.''

...

im geniunly intrested in why you would be so protective of this idea,i mean your clearly putting some thinking into convincing me i shouldn't explore this possibility,but i don't find a reason for it no matter how hard i think...

alij8000! You entertain me. I can relate. To the passion of elucidating something unknown. I embarked on my quest to lucid dream in an attempt to gain and master magical skills.

Let me explain to you my experience with hallucinations. When I was a kid, I would go to bed at night, and I would begin to hallucinate. I wasn't sleeping/dreaming yet. But I felt things on my body and when I looked, there were spiders and bugs. And all around my room, little helicopter bugs would fly around, little goblins would jump around the furniture. I knew they weren't real and I would put my hand in front of the image to test it. My hand didn't hide the images, they would simply be in front of my hands, like my eyes were projectors. But the spiders scared me. When there were too many spiders on my body, and I would even see the image of a big gross spider that was as vivid whether I closed or opened my eyes and I couldn't handle it anymore, I would walk into the hallway and to my parents' bedroom. On the way, I would see things. A cat come out of my mom's slippers for example. Once my parents were awake, the hallucinations were gone and I could go to bed peacefully. I knew they weren't real, I just wanted them out of my face so I could sleep.

That's my experience with visual and tactile hallucinations. And hearing hallucinations are things that some people experience (though I have only experienced it twice with music beats, not voices). If you hallucinate completely, I don't see how that's not a dream. It's quite vivid.

In both waking experience and dream experience, it's the brain creating your perception. In waking life, the brain uses external stimuli. In the dream, the brain uses your "memory" (I'm using that word vastly here). The way it's possible to have external stimuli enter a dream, it's possible to have "memory" enter waking experience. That's hallucination. Dreaming when awake is called hallucinating. And because you said this was irrelevant, it's because you think the hallucination is not extreme enough. it's only one item, not the whole dreamscape. But not even schizophrenia patients hallucinate 100% of their waking experience. It doesn't work because when awake, your brain uses external stimuli. Once you overcome all the external stimuli, your body will be sleeping.

Honestly, this conversation is scary because completely disconnecting yourself from reality during wakefulness is a debilitating experience that I would not seek too fervently. It happens to people against their will, and they get the same delusional thoughts that we have in dreams. And they get treatment for it because it prevents them from functioning socially and professionally. Sleep is the natural process that allows hallucinations to take 100% control of our perception. I encourage you to take that route. Many have used drugs to recreate dreaming during wakefulness. Kudos to them. But I suggest you just use the legal, safe, and reliable way that is called sleep. It happens every single night. There is no rush. Enjoy the ride.

Maybe you still don't think that hallucination is relevant but it is. It's the word for dreaming when awake. And it's better avoided. It's only really useful to fill in gaps in your perception.

Anyways, that's my rant. I don't think anyone is being closed minded here. In fact, lots of the people in this conversation have proven to be quite open minded. I understand you are on a quest to uncover an out of the ordinary skill but this is what I encourage you to do:
- Play with daydreaming/visualization (maybe train for lucid dreaming with them). I have used them to create mental temples which I use to store memories and ideas.
- Learn to fall asleep quicker (healthy lifestyle, exercise, regular sleep schedule, I'm sure you can find much more advice for this)
- Master lucid dreaming
- Enjoy spending time with your dream guide (many don't believe in dream guides, but at least there's no harm done, except for perhaps a momentary loss of dream control).

I think this will satisfy all your needs for now.

@alij8000
We are not opposed to have dream like experiences while we are not asleep. We only oppose calling them dreams. Because you dream when you are asleep. You can have hallucinations, stong images when you are visualizing when you are awake. Everything has words that mean the same thing for everybody. It's that way so we can communicate and understand each other.

I don't understand why you insist on calling lucid dream like images that could happen outside of sleep "dreams". You can not imagine anything else happening that's not a dream? Dream by definition happens when we are asleep. Other images or phenomena that can happen when you are awake perhaps don't even have a name yet. They were not discovered.

I see images right now, yet I am not asleep. I see waking life images. They are different than dreams and hence they are NOT called dreams. Hallucinations are not called dreams either. HH are not called dreams. Many images and experiences exist and they are not called dreams. So what gives? Why do you want to "dream" when you are not asleep? Why don't you see that the lucid dream like experience that you would like to discover (or us discover it for you) could be of same quality or parameters as a dream. Except the name.

I thought that this is more like wisher's thread because he seemed to be pushing the same thing.

Originally Posted by alij8000

@Ibeauty
the limbo,yes you can call it that,you could say im trying to achive an insta portal to limbo or whatever the lucid dreaming world we go to is without having to go trough sleep as a prequisite.

We have a thread like this somewhere already. I've said this on another thread seem to be alike:

Originally Posted by Ibeauty

Like others have said, We are all dreamers.
Origins! Am the only person that I know in my family who can recall my dreams and who is an active natural lucid dreamer. However, just because I can do that, doesn't mean I see myself invincible and better than everyone else. I'm still learning new things here from even the beginners. If I've too, have found my true Mindfulness and the Spiritual Potential of Humanity through lucid dreaming, I may never tell you.

Originally Posted by alij8000

i will not lie,i've not had any LD's since my last one i think a few days ago,and not for the lack of trying,i think it might be my meditation thats preventing it,unfortunetly im not soppoused to be doing a certin meditation before bed if im to WILD but it auto-occur's and then i get insomnia,and when i get insomnia i can't WILD,which is how i LD 95% of the time.(this is the reason i want to find a way to bypass sleep as a prequisite in the first place,its the only barrier to infinite insta lucid dreaming for me)

By the way, I hate to say this but, your grammar is still hard to read. When I'm trying to get my point across, I try to be as professional as I can. I know there are some programs out there that you can use to help make people understand what you are saying.
Alij8000! Not seeing is believing? I have to ask, how do we know that you are not just posting this thread because you just simply don't know the difference between a lucid and non-lucid dream? Or at least that's what I feel like is going on here with your posts, somehow. This happens in other dream sites, you know? Where are you getting your information? Please tell us your credible sources because if not, it is really just your opinion and not actual fact. This would be critical to any discussion.

Alij8000! Not seeing is believing? I have to ask, how do we know that you are not just posting this thread because you just simply don't know the difference between a lucid and non-lucid dream? Or at least that's what I feel like is going on here with your posts, somehow. This happens in other dream sites, you know? Where are you getting your information? Please tell us your credible sources because if not, it is really just your opinion and not actual fact. This would be critical to any discussion.

i can't belive im seriously being asked this,but if that actualy happend on other threads,i can tell you my first ever LD experiance,it happend around 3 weeks after i started doing isha kriya meditation,i had an unintended WILD,at first i didn't tell the diffrence i simply tought i had awoken,but in the mirror my face was blurred out,thats when i relized i was dreaming,i got too excited and i woke up and then i did some research and at first i tought it was astral projection but soon after i found it to be lucid dreaming.

@gab
i don't understand why r u being so tight about what to call something in the end if its just a name like you clearly seem to understand,why not give it rest???
is it so goddamn important to write a whole page for?!

@occipitalred
you've made my point for me as to why im not willing to settle for ''halucinations'' or ''simmilar experiances'' and am pushing this hard,in your experiance you said you would get scared of the spiders and what not,you would test them to see if their real or not and so on,
well thats it,thats exactly why,when your halucinating,your not fully concious of whats happening,you've no control over it,its scary it can destroy you and you can't stop it when you want to,what you described are all i'llness and diseases in my opinion,their not what i seek.

you described your experiances,now if you could work with me here for a second,imagine that i managed to find what im looking for,got what i wanted from this thread,assume,and this would be hypotheicaly my experiance :

''im in my house,i just woke up,its 10 o'c in the morning,its sunday i've no school or work for today,snow has run down heavy last night and all the roads are blocked,the door to the house is stuck the snow is blocking it from the outside,my family is on a trip im entirely alone,power is out,there is nothing to do,but it doesn't matter,i've got my brain with me,i sit on the coach,i get relaxed so as to not put any physical strain on my body,i close my eyes,everything is black,i see nothing,i decide to dream,i know im not asleep,but it doesn't matter,thats not a barrier for me anymore,the world forms around me,from the blackness itself,i see everything,im on top of a mountain,its run down by heavy thick snow,i've got a bunch of friends here,their all my DC's,got my spirit guide here too,hes making us some coffee,we sit near the campfire that i just started with a little bit of magic heat waves from my hands xD,and we just chill for a few hours,
i roughly know its been 3 hours since i closed my eyes first,im still chilling with my spirit guide drinkin some coffee,oh god that coffee was even better than real coffee,wish we had those in real life lol,as our coffee finishes i shake his warm hand pat him on the shoulder and bid him farewell,i close my eyes and i open them,im back on my chair,i've had a phenomenal experiance,even tough i had just woken up and couldn't have possibly had fallen asleep and had a WILD or a DILD.ofcourse it wouldn't have lasted this long if i coudn't have had a one any time i wanted since it took me a couple of hundred times finding out how exactly to stablize myself in the dream,and i did all that on the same day i found out how to have LD's on demand without having to sleep first ,that sure limited my attempts to shit,indeed those two years i spent on that fourm tryin to make this happen were worth it,i wish i had made that thread sooner,to think someone actualy managed it!
shame i spent all that money on those video games and movies tough,their all useless junk now,bilions of dollar went into making those,i could just make one any time i wanted,wouldn't even have to be asleep to do it,POV real life style too!,wonder what'll happen to all those video game and movie companies tough,i mean once this shit hits the fan,people are gonna be out of jobs for sure...''

and thats just hypothetical,truth is we don't even know what else you can do with your LD's given you'd have acess to them at all times!
,now the question is my friend,can you share my vision?