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    Thread: WILD - Wake Initiated Lucid Dream

    1. #176
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      I don't think there should be this divide between the two techniques as separate pursuits at all. The approach for both is the same, training in self-awareness and memory. If you do enough self awareness work to become proficient in WILD then you are going to have DILDs by virtue of that increased mindfulness.

      I think the problem is the way WILD is sold. You arrive here and you see all the work that needs to be put into DILD for results that are by no means cause and effect, and there's all these flashy tuts saying, 'don't bother with that RC shit loser, LD anytime you want!' and the way it works is that you put loads and loads of work into this one event of the "holy grail" WILD after which you can basically LD on demand. But it doesn't work that way, most give up because they've been fed misinformation, or simply don't have the inclination for relaxation and mindfulness, and those who do succeed find that it turns out that when you do finally get that WILD you don't receive a medal that lets you LD all the time, the next WILD each WILD is its own tricky beast. Both experiences are mortifying, but the former much more common, so WILD continues to be mythologised as an unattainable ideal.

      Also, the damn name, WILD, it's descriptive of the expected experience, it seems to entail all that SP crap everybody and their dog is in love with.
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    2. #177
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ctharlhie View Post
      I don't think there should be this divide between the two techniques as separate pursuits at all. The approach for both is the same, training in self-awareness and memory. If you do enough self awareness work to become proficient in WILD then you are going to have DILDs by virtue of that increased mindfulness.

      I think the problem is the way WILD is sold. You arrive here and you see all the work that needs to be put into DILD for results that are by no means cause and effect, and there's all these flashy tuts saying, 'don't bother with that RC shit loser, LD anytime you want!' and the way it works is that you put loads and loads of work into this one event of the "holy grail" WILD after which you can basically LD on demand. But it doesn't work that way, most give up because they've been fed misinformation, or simply don't have the inclination for relaxation and mindfulness, and those who do succeed find that it turns out that when you do finally get that WILD you don't receive a medal that lets you LD all the time, the next WILD each WILD is its own tricky beast. Both experiences are mortifying, but the former much more common, so WILD continues to be mythologised as an unattainable ideal.

      Also, the damn name, WILD, it's descriptive of the expected experience, it seems to entail all that SP crap everybody and their dog is in love with.
      Not to mention the myriad posts like "I TRIED FILD AND IT WORKED THE FIRST TIME!" (mostly on reddit). But curiously you never see "and it works for me every night" posts.
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    3. #178
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ctharlhie View Post
      I don't think there should be this divide between the two techniques as separate pursuits at all. The approach for both is the same, training in self-awareness and memory. If you do enough self awareness work to become proficient in WILD then you are going to have DILDs by virtue of that increased mindfulness.

      I think the problem is the way WILD is sold. You arrive here and you see all the work that needs to be put into DILD for results that are by no means cause and effect, and there's all these flashy tuts saying, 'don't bother with that RC shit loser, LD anytime you want!' and the way it works is that you put loads and loads of work into this one event of the "holy grail" WILD after which you can basically LD on demand. But it doesn't work that way, most give up because they've been fed misinformation, or simply don't have the inclination for relaxation and mindfulness, and those who do succeed find that it turns out that when you do finally get that WILD you don't receive a medal that lets you LD all the time, the next WILD each WILD is its own tricky beast. Both experiences are mortifying, but the former much more common, so WILD continues to be mythologised as an unattainable ideal.

      Also, the damn name, WILD, it's descriptive of the expected experience, it seems to entail all that SP crap everybody and their dog is in love with.


      Great post! Clearly addresses the quick fix mindset that causes the problem. This LD stuff is an art to be developed, not a simple trick to be learned over x-mas break.
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    4. #179
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ctharlhie View Post
      I don't think there should be this divide between the two techniques as separate pursuits at all. The approach for both is the same, training in self-awareness and memory. If you do enough self awareness work to become proficient in WILD then you are going to have DILDs by virtue of that increased mindfulness.

      I think the problem is the way WILD is sold. You arrive here and you see all the work that needs to be put into DILD for results that are by no means cause and effect, and there's all these flashy tuts saying, 'don't bother with that RC shit loser, LD anytime you want!' and the way it works is that you put loads and loads of work into this one event of the "holy grail" WILD after which you can basically LD on demand. But it doesn't work that way, most give up because they've been fed misinformation, or simply don't have the inclination for relaxation and mindfulness, and those who do succeed find that it turns out that when you do finally get that WILD you don't receive a medal that lets you LD all the time, the next WILD each WILD is its own tricky beast. Both experiences are mortifying, but the former much more common, so WILD continues to be mythologised as an unattainable ideal.

      Also, the damn name, WILD, it's descriptive of the expected experience, it seems to entail all that SP crap everybody and their dog is in love with.
      Freaking dogs.
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    5. #180
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      I need help in that I fall asleep too easily and lose focus very quickly. I'm an experienced meditator but it doesn't translate into staying with an alert mind while sleeping. That drive to want to sleep and relax just takes me over 9/10 times within a minute or two into WILD. I have had success with WILD but much much more with SSILD. Of course I do the MILD work as a foundation. I have also noticed that sometimes doing SSILD has bridged me into extremely coherent WILD LD's. Maybe SSILD acts as my "mantra" or way of staying mentally alert enough to transition without losing focus. Maybe that's how SSILD really works?

    6. #181
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      Quote Originally Posted by Avalokiteshvara View Post
      I need help in that I fall asleep too easily and lose focus very quickly. I'm an experienced meditator but it doesn't translate into staying with an alert mind while sleeping. That drive to want to sleep and relax just takes me over 9/10 times within a minute or two into WILD. I have had success with WILD but much much more with SSILD. Of course I do the MILD work as a foundation. I have also noticed that sometimes doing SSILD has bridged me into extremely coherent WILD LD's. Maybe SSILD acts as my "mantra" or way of staying mentally alert enough to transition without losing focus. Maybe that's how SSILD really works?
      Despite what any tutorial says (I had to look up SSILD) there are only 2 categories of LD. WILD ( going from awake into a dream) and DILD (starting in a non-lucid and becoming lucid). Of course people love to claim they made a new one. I had to look up SSILD just now, as I never looked into it. It claims to be a hybrid, but it is just like any WILD. It claims this because if you do not get into a dream, then it enhances the chances of an LD later in the night. Well, that is exactly what WILD does. A failed WILD is the best set up to induce a DILD.

      Long story short, if "SSILD" lets you move directly into an LD then it is a form of WILD that works for you. Yes, the sensory stuff is the 'anchor' and that is just fine. Anchors can be any number of things.

      There are 2 ways WILD will play out and neither is wrong. The first one does involve sort of ending up unconscious, and relies on timing, so that you enter sleep and hit REM at the same moment. The other is more like deep meditation and involves holding awareness into true sleep, which involves H.H or H.I. many times and allows less perfect timing, but takes more practice.

      To work on the first it is ok to sleep quickly, but you need to find your timing, which is going to take practice.

      The other more complex WILD style (with H.H. perhaps) involves the need to stay conscious AND sleep anyways. This form often is done on the back, and often in a pose of some form. I may bring the feet together with knees slightly out in a kind of diamond shape. The reason for this? People who do the first method may find it silly and tell you that you must be comfy so you can sleep. Well, in the more meditation like method being to comfy allows a drift off point to go undetected. By being in a slightly uncomfortable pose, it becomes hard to sleep. You have handicapped you bodies desire to sleep, with a constant desire to shift positions. It allows a state where using an anchor will keep you on the edge of sleep. It is in this state that you can go deeper and deeper with out going beyond the first stages of sleep. You hover on the verge of sleep. At this point you wait for the weird stuff to signal you are far more asleep than awake. Perhaps you are seeing dreamlets and hearing music that is not real. Perhaps you feel strange like you are on some form of drug, but still a vague sense of your body is there.

      You can now take one of two paths. One would be to shift gently into a slightly more relaxed posture and try to consciously go into full sleep with your awareness highly intact. The other is to shift gently into your normal sleeping position and continue a light hearted anchor allowing sleep to slam into you like the lights being turned out.

      The first method can lead to fabulously well controlled LDs with nearly full waking awareness, but takes perhaps years of practice. The second method has become my favorite. Basically you primed yourself for sleep so that it would occur in less than say 5 seconds. You actually have reached low grade sleep complete with H.H. before turning to the side or what ever your normal position is, but you are aware. This allows you to be fully aware with in 1 or 2 seconds of true sleep. It is taking away the waiting and drifting where you can get lost and forget.

      I think I may have made that stuff up in my own practice. I am not sure I have ever seen it in writing, but that is how I do most of mine now. Lay in a pose until you reach H.H. then when you are so painfully close to true sleep, shift for instant true sleep. Of course no WILD tips will lead to 100% success, but maybe it is worth a try.
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    7. #182
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      Hi Sivason,

      I think i've used your method in my recent successful or semi-successful WILD Attempts
      My schedule was
      1. Waking up after 5 -7 hours of sleep
      2. Shifting onto position in which i'm unable to sleep (my back)
      3. lying still till some signal that i'm close to sleep shows up (I was waiting till thoughts suddenly start to flow on their own. And if after five minutes they didn't flow yet randomly i'd just go with step 4)
      4. Switch back to my natural sleeping position (on side)
      5. Start using anchor (Counting 0.1.2.0.1.2.0.1.2)

      It resulted in four dream transitions during seven days

      Unfortunely it seems like my body is getting to lying on back.
      I fell asleep yesterday and today during this part of process.

      I guess i'il try to make my position more uncomfortable then
      Last edited by MisakaMikoto; 08-04-2014 at 07:02 PM.
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      I need help doing a wild. I would get up six hours later, stay up with tv on, go to sleep, experience sleep paralysis, hear noise(no hypnogic imagery) then i wake up pissed and frustrated. The next attempt, right when the noise was gone and I experienced sleep paralysis, i opened my eyes. This is the first time i opened my eyes because I was scared i would see ghost when i wake up. Instead i opened them slowly and I saw my room in a blurry-like matter with a slight hole in my bed. Was I in a dream, if so why was I in my room? If i succeeded, how do i know when to open my eyes just in case i wake up in paralysis?

    9. #184
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      Quote Originally Posted by heat54 View Post
      I need help doing a wild. I would get up six hours later, stay up with tv on, go to sleep, experience sleep paralysis, hear noise(no hypnogic imagery) then i wake up pissed and frustrated. The next attempt, right when the noise was gone and I experienced sleep paralysis, i opened my eyes. This is the first time i opened my eyes because I was scared i would see ghost when i wake up. Instead i opened them slowly and I saw my room in a blurry-like matter with a slight hole in my bed. Was I in a dream, if so why was I in my room? If i succeeded, how do i know when to open my eyes just in case i wake up in paralysis?
      Hi,

      I don't suggest opening your eyes to check stuff.
      It might cost you your wild attempt if you open them while being still in your own bed and not in dream world
      If you want to check whether your dreaming or not you can try some 'Dream Control' stuff or Imagination/Visualization
      I"d suggest to just wait till you appear in dream scene.

      That's what i do
      I'm just using anchor to keep up consciousness while waiting for Dream World to start

      And anyways, everynight before you enter just a normal dream you don't make entrance yourself (Since you are unconscious still.)
      Body does it for you, and after it put you into the dream you regain consciousness, so why not let body do the job
      Last edited by MisakaMikoto; 08-14-2014 at 12:29 PM.
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    10. #185
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      Quote Originally Posted by MisakaMikoto View Post
      1. Waking up after 5 -7 hours of sleep
      2. Shifting onto position in which i'm unable to sleep (my back)
      3. lying still till some signal that i'm close to sleep shows up (I was waiting till thoughts suddenly start to flow on their own. And if after five minutes they didn't flow yet randomly i'd just go with step 4)
      4. Switch back to my natural sleeping position (on side)
      5. Start using anchor (Counting 0.1.2.0.1.2.0.1.2)
      Oooooh, I didn't think of changing positions when close to falling asleep...now I'm going to have to try it. Usually when I try WILD on my back I don't fall asleep, so this just may work for me!
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    11. #186
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      Staying in one position, too awake, staying in another, too sleepy. WILD is that space between awake and asleep and then going to sleep. I switch right before I go to sleep usually. It has always worked best for me to go from awake position to asleep position and not the other way around.

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      i use melatonin to fall asleep is that a problem? (i have to take them to fall asleep since i have adhd)

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      Quote Originally Posted by WaffleNinja View Post
      i use melatonin to fall asleep is that a problem? (i have to take them to fall asleep since i have adhd)
      No harm at all. You will be doing the WILD hours after taking any sleep aid.
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    14. #189
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      @Sivason: Yes! Fantastic post! Please write more on the mechanics of WILD.
      It is in this state that you can go deeper and deeper with out going beyond the first stages of sleep. You hover on the verge of sleep. At this point you wait for the weird stuff to signal you are far more asleep than awake. Perhaps you are seeing dreamlets and hearing music that is not real. Perhaps you feel strange like you are on some form of drug, but still a vague sense of your body is there.
      This describes my experience with navigating stage 1 NREM so well.
      Have you read this thread by Mzzkc? WILD Progression Outline - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views I found it to be kinda revolutionary that in WILD we enter NREM consciously (as opposed to the classical view that you just lie still until SP hits).

      I recently enrolled in a meditation class at uni and we do yoga nidra at the end of each session. I love it because it's like being given a legitimate excuse to exercise control of remaining aware on the edge of sleep, I always end up experiencing HI and other WILD sensations.
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    15. #190
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ctharlhie View Post
      I found it to be kinda revolutionary that in WILD we enter NREM consciously (as opposed to the classical view that you just lie still until SP hits).
      Revolutionary? How about sad?

      As an "old guy" who was doing this stuff long before the advent of social media, let me assure you that the idea of entering NREM consciously is far more classical than the now popular (and essentially incorrect) "classical view that you just lie still until SP hits."

      The mechanics of WILD have been around for a very long time, probably as long as humanity has enjoyed sentience. What Sivason describes (correctly and quite well, BTW) is by no means revolutionary. Sleep yogis, for instance, have been navigating delta sleep (NREM) for centuries. That this age-old concept and activity is considered novel or revolutionary on forums like this is telling, and by any measures quite sad. That SP and the rest of the noise is considered important and integral to WILD by pretty much everyone is sadder still, and a real roadblock to the popular development of lucid dreaming.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Revolutionary? How about sad?

      As an "old guy" who was doing this stuff long before the advent of social media, let me assure you that the idea of entering NREM consciously is far more classical than the now popular (and essentially incorrect) "classical view that you just lie still until SP hits."

      The mechanics of WILD have been around for a very long time, probably as long as humanity has enjoyed sentience. What Sivason describes (correctly and quite well, BTW) is by no means revolutionary. Sleep yogis, for instance, have been navigating delta sleep (NREM) for centuries. That this age-old concept and activity is considered novel or revolutionary on forums like this is telling, and by any measures quite sad. That SP and the rest of the noise is considered important and integral to WILD by pretty much everyone is sadder still, and a real roadblock to the popular development of lucid dreaming.
      Being the forever optimist, how about it's awesome that such a thing has been rediscovered through social media?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Revolutionary? How about sad?

      As an "old guy" who was doing this stuff long before the advent of social media, let me assure you that the idea of entering NREM consciously is far more classical than the now popular (and essentially incorrect) "classical view that you just lie still until SP hits."

      The mechanics of WILD have been around for a very long time, probably as long as humanity has enjoyed sentience. What Sivason describes (correctly and quite well, BTW) is by no means revolutionary. Sleep yogis, for instance, have been navigating delta sleep (NREM) for centuries. That this age-old concept and activity is considered novel or revolutionary on forums like this is telling, and by any measures quite sad. That SP and the rest of the noise is considered important and integral to WILD by pretty much everyone is sadder still, and a real roadblock to the popular development of lucid dreaming.
      Well, we can all thank Laberge for that...

      'Classical' was intended ironically, I assure you.

      At least DV is ahead of Reddit (and the rest of the internet) in trying to dispel the SP myth.
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      I can do sleep paralysis easily but I can't WILD. I typically sleep at around 11 pm and set my alarm to 4:15 am. I stay awake for a while then fall asleep. When I wake up I don't move at all. At this point I get sleep paralysis. But nothing happens. I swallow a few times and my eyes moved rapidly. But then.....nothing.

      Is there anything missing?

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      Quote Originally Posted by srvfan View Post
      I can do sleep paralysis easily but I can't WILD. I typically sleep at around 11 pm and set my alarm to 4:15 am. I stay awake for a while then fall asleep. When I wake up I don't move at all. At this point I get sleep paralysis. But nothing happens. I swallow a few times and my eyes moved rapidly. But then.....nothing.

      Is there anything missing?
      Hi,

      It seems like you are doing the DEILD Technique there?
      Your waking up and remaining motionless while waiting for transition into the dream.
      The problem might be the alarm you use, it might jolt you awake too much?
      There are two conditions you need for deild:
      - REM Phase (Alarm needs to wake you up during active rem phase, setting multiple alarms might prove userful)
      - State Of Your Mind (You need to be awakened in calm manner so you will be easily falling back asleep yet consciously, if alarm will be too loud or too sudden it might shock you and prevent falling asleep easily? I'd suggest alarm which volmue starts at 0% and slowly goes up till it wakes you up and stops after some time?)
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      I have a question about WILD. I have been practicing this method for as long as I can remember but to no avail. I haven't given up though. Last night, I was more determined than ever to remain conscious and complete a WILD.

      I had been lying in my bed for TWO STRAIGHT HOURS. I had no moved at all (aside form the occasional swallow) and my entire body went numb and felt disconnected. However, nothing ever happened! What am I supposed to do from here? Do I simply need to practice this more often? Thanks!

      ~Brad

    21. #196
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      ^^ bwink97, I hear you. WILD is tricky when starting from fully awake for people who do not fall asleep easily. One thing about very strong intention is that it can definitely keep you awake.

      My take on WILD is that the way to approach finding just the right amount of awareness and attention is ideally found by a series of attempts where you vary the strength of your awareness. For a while you're going to overshoot being too aware and staying awake vs. not enough awareness and falling asleep unconsciously. Recall, however, that the unchanging requirement is that *you must fall asleep*. So, in my book, it's always better to aim more on the side of falling asleep than remaining aware. That way, at least, you still have a shot at DILD or at least even a non-lucid dream, as opposed to being awake in bed for hours (which I really don't like). For someone who falls asleep in seconds the emphasis should be reversed.

      Anyway, this time, you way overshot on the awareness/attention. Next time, aim much more for sleep, and if you undershoot, next time add in more awareness, but not as much as this time, and so forth. Over time you should start to home in on just the right amount. I visualise it as a series of oscillations that gradually converge, like this:



      As you approach finding the ideal awareness level, you'll get more and more shots at actually entering the dream.

      My personal experience is that it's always surprising to me just how little the awareness is that you must maintain and still be able to fall asleep. It's miniscule, barely any difference at all from simply falling asleep unconsciously. But again, maybe that's just me.

      Another thing to keep in mind is that the process, when successful, may indeed take a while. Sageous mentions and hour to an hour and a half for his attempts if I recall correctly.

      You can understand that if you think of the awareness over time like this: (X axis here being time, Y axis being awareness, with Y=0 asleep and larger Y being more awake), I think this is the awareness graph of an experienced WILDer:



      Exactly how long the duration is depends on the person: everyone's mind approaches sleep in their own way. Keep at it, and try to discover your own ideal "awareness graph" that leads to WILD.

      One thing to try is to aim at first straight towards sleep, and only start introducing the idea of holding awareness once you're already part way there, approaching sleep.
      Sensei likes this.
      FryingMan's Unified Theory of Lucid Dreaming: Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall -- Both Day and Night[link]
      FryingMan's Dream Recall Tips -- Awesome Links
      “No amount of security is worth the suffering of a mediocre life chained to a routine that has killed your dreams.”
      "...develop stability in awareness and your dreams will change in extraordinary ways" -- TYoDaS

    22. #197
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      Quote Originally Posted by bwink97 View Post
      I have a question about WILD. I have been practicing this method for as long as I can remember but to no avail. I haven't given up though. Last night, I was more determined than ever to remain conscious and complete a WILD.

      I had been lying in my bed for TWO STRAIGHT HOURS. I had no moved at all (aside form the occasional swallow) and my entire body went numb and felt disconnected. However, nothing ever happened! What am I supposed to do from here? Do I simply need to practice this more often? Thanks!

      ~Brad
      Think of wild as shooting a bow and arrow. You need to have the right vertical (awareness) and the right horizontal (timing) to hit it correctly. If you are just laying in bed from waking trying to keep your awareness as high as you can, it is like sitting on a merry go round blindfolded and someone is spinning you around in circles and you trying to hit the target, your answer to the fact that you don't know where you are aiming is to aim as high as you can (Keep awareness up).

      You need to work on timing, and awareness level. Because too much awareness will just lead to insomnia. Laying in bed for 2 hours is never the answer. Check out these threads:
      Why You Fail at WILDs - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
      Mzzkcs Comprehensive WILD Guide - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

      I post them a lot, but that is because they are very good.

    23. #198
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      Awesome. Thanks for the advice. So what you are saying is, I don't need to focus on remaining highly aware. But instead just slowly let my awareness decrease without getting to low and then slipping into a dream? Upon approaching sleep more and more I decrease my awareness more and more?

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      Quote Originally Posted by bwink97 View Post
      Awesome. Thanks for the advice. So what you are saying is, I don't need to focus on remaining highly aware. But instead just slowly let my awareness decrease without getting to low and then slipping into a dream? Upon approaching sleep more and more I decrease my awareness more and more?
      Kind of. It really is different for each of us. It isn't something that seems to be the same for all of us. I usually go decrease awareness like that until I am sure that I will wild or won't wild. Haha.

    25. #200
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      Just be sure, Bwink97, that you retain your self-awareness throughout your effort.

      Though it's not a bad idea to let natural awareness -- your senses, your physical perceptions, etc. -- fade in order to welcome or encourage sleep, you must be sure not to sacrifice your waking-life self-awareness, your sense of Self, in the process. If you do, then the WILD cannot happen.

      This is probably already understood, but I figured it worth mentioning anyway.
      Last edited by Sageous; 12-04-2014 at 09:20 AM.

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