Random Voice Prompt (RVP) Induction Technique - Beta

**Venryx** · 02-04-2017 09:31 PM

Okay, finally took the time to package up the app and upload it to Google Play.

Here's the app's page on the Play Store (with screenshots): Lucid Link - Google Play Store
And here's the source code for it: https://github.com/Venryx/LucidLink

The app and this technique are still early in development, so this thread is a "beta" version of it, for people who want to try it themselves before I've worked out each of the components thoroughly.

Before we get onto the technique, here's a bit of background on it:

Spoiler for Technique background and success rates:

I'll make a nicer and more comprehensive tutorial later on, but for now, this is the summary for the technique, as I'm currently doing it, which I dubbed last night the RVP (random voice prompt) technique. It's divided into two parts: the technical setup, and the nightly practice.

Technical setup

1) Launch the app, and open the "Tools>RVP Technique" tab.

2) Temporarily change the voice-prompt interval to 10 seconds (for volume adjustment), then toggle the "enabled" switch on.

3) Adjust the volume so that it's loud enough to gather attention (reminding you to make your mental response), but not enough to prevent sleep. The spoiler below describes how to replicate the volume I've been using, but you can skip it if you'd rather adjust it all yourself anyway.

Spoiler for Volume adjustment:

4) Change the voice-prompt interval so that it's as frequent as it can be without you "burning out" -- where you ignore the prompts or are substantially annoyed by them. In other words, make sure the prompts are still rare and "interesting enough" that you can comfortably "listen in" and process them the whole time you're (consciously) falling asleep. This also requires much experimentation, but here's what I've been using so far (the last month or so): every 120 seconds

5) Customize the range of tones/pitches to use for the text-to-speech voice. Currently I have it cover all the way from 1% to 150% (150%+ becomes hard to recognize), but I haven't tried other ranges much yet, so I don't know how much it affects the technique's effectiveness. I do think some variation should occur though, as otherwise you'd probably become too accustomed to the sound of the voice. (I do know that the short time before I added pitch variation, the technique didn't seem to work much.) Anyway, feel free to experiment, though I suggest allowing for at least an 80% or so range for pitch variation. (and btw, at first the low tones can sound kind of scary/weird, but you get used to it after several days)

6) Augment the list of voice-prompt names with the names of people you know personally and who are significant to you. This will include most of your friends, your family, some of your relatives probably, other members on DreamViews, and any dream guides or the like from your dream worlds. These names will be spoken by the voice prompts, to make them more interesting and connect you with them more meaningfully. Also! Make sure you include your own name in that list. It has an interesting mental effect when you hear a robot voice in the night randomly saying your name followed by a set of random digits.

Great! Now you're set up and can focus on what you're supposed to do each night while falling asleep.

Nightly practice

The technique has worked some for my long/night sleep, though as seen by the stats it's much less reliable than if it's combined with WBTB. Thus, I definitely recommend doing WBTB if you're intent on the technique succeeding quickly (and with full-fledged lucids instead of "weak" ones, as are much more common for long/night sleeps). But either way, you end up doing the same procedure whenever you enter bed, so you can just do it with WBTB whenever it's convenient.

1) Start the app, and enable the RVP tool. (making sure the volume is set to the value determined earlier, and the device/speaker is in position)

2) Begin "waiting". What to do while you're waiting has been the main thing I've experimented with over the last month. Interestingly, it seems a good variety of things have worked, including:

Spoiler for Activities while waiting:

3) Whenever a voice prompt occurs, listen carefully for the number that is spoken. The number is randomly generated, but in such a way that either all its digits will be even, or all its digits will be odd. Now this is important because it lets you use it as a "passive reality-check" to evaluate whether you're in a dream/false-awakening without having to actually move or anything. So whenever a number is spoken, check the digits to make sure that they match the "all even or all odd" criteria. If not, then congrats! You've caught your subconscious trying (but failing) to imitate the actual app, and you must be in a lucid dream. If so, then mentally speak to yourself the state of those numbers; ie, if they were all even, mentally speak/think the word "even", and if they were all odd, mentally speak/think the word "odd".

4) (optional) You can also try something I've been trying recently, which is reciting a "quick list" of your top four dream goals just after your voice-prompt response above. I suspect this reinforces your intention to lucid dream, as well as making it easier to remember your goals once you actually enter one. If you want, you can also combine this with a brief visualization of those four dream goals, as visual memories can be easier to access relationally while in-dream. (I envision my dream goals as being physically stacked on each other in interesting ways. For example, if my goals are "talk to my coworker", "get a massage", "ask a pencil to draw a picture", and "call down a storm of meteors", I would recite my quick-list as "coworker, massage, pencil, meteor", and/or visualize it as my coworker, with a couch on her head, a pencil on the couch, and a meteor balanced on the pencil.)

That's the bulk of it. There's more to add in way of things I've learned along the way, and some pitfalls (such as desensitizing to the prompts and no longer giving them significant attention, which reduced the effectiveness for a day or two), but I'll speak on those things later when I've experimented more myself and am ready to package it up again for "version 1". (this is still a beta)

Let me know if you have any questions, and/or if you want to participate in a public evaluation of the technique. I'll be doing so myself here each night -- posting my results, describing what I learn, and making changes to the technique (and app) along the way.

**Venryx** · 02-05-2017 09:49 AM

Attempt (long sleep, uninterrupted): full lucid

Sleep graph: Screenshot_2017-02-04-17-52-31.jpg

This one was short, waking up ~30 seconds in. Basically all I got to do was finish talking with a dc (the one who made me realize I was dreaming), about some dreaming-related topic, before realizing the dream was beginning the exit transition.

I don't remember the details because while recollecting I fell back asleep again... for four hours. And then had to get up and help with something for two hours. (only just got back)

Anyway, hopefully I'm still tired enough to have another go tonight.

Success rate:
Long sleep: 20/25(+13 interrupted) (12 weak, 8 full)
Post-sleep nap: 15/17 (2 weak, 13 full)
Isolated nap: 3/3 (1 weak, 2 full)

P.S. As mentioned, the app is in beta so there's still some bugs. Just found one tonight: toggling the "Lucid" switch in a dream journal entry will crash the app. So don't do that (till I fix/update it). (and btw, that error didn't occur when I built the app in debug/develop mode, as was used over the last month; so my level of testing is not as bad as it may seem!)

**MadzAssassin** · 02-05-2017 12:34 PM

I am gonna start practicing this to help with testing! I've been reading the other thread and it seems to be working well for you so far. Been wanting something to sink my teeth in testing for a while now!

Ill download the app later and set it up for tonight's night 1 of practice!

Brilliant idea btw Venryx! To code an app couldn't have been a simple task! Salute to you sir!

**MadzAssassin** · 02-05-2017 06:52 PM

Ran into an issue Venryx. I am getting this error on start up with the app! I am using an S7 Edge

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

**Venryx** · 02-05-2017 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by MadzAssassin

Ran into an issue Venryx. I am getting this error on start up with the app! I am using an S7 Edge

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

Interesting. Looking into it now.

What version of the Android OS does it have? Android 6 (marshmallow), or 7 (nougat)? (you can check in Settings>About tablet)

**MadzAssassin** · 02-05-2017 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Venryx

Interesting. Looking into it now.

What version of the Android OS does it have? Android 6 (marshmallow), or 7 (nougat)? (you can check in Settings>About tablet)

It says 6.0.1 so I assume Version 6.

**Venryx** · 02-05-2017 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by MadzAssassin

It says 6.0.1 so I assume Version 6.

Okay, fixed the problem. The app wasn't prompting the user for sd-card access, as is required in Android 6+.

I also fixed the dream journal "lucid"-toggle crash.

You can either wait for the update to be accepted on Google Play, or download and install the latest version from here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27...ew?usp=sharing

**MadzAssassin** · 02-05-2017 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Venryx

Okay, fixed the problem. The app wasn't prompting the user for sd-card access, as is required in Android 6+.

I also fixed the dream journal "lucid"-toggle crash.

You can either wait for the update to be accepted on Google Play, or download and install the latest version from here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B27...ew?usp=sharing

Thanks so much Venryx! Appreciate all the hard work! Kno it is gonna be worth it

**Irreo** · 02-06-2017 04:21 PM

I'll definitely try this.

I'm open to try different techniques because even if I had many lucids, all have been short, and mostly weak.

Thanks for this!
I'll post updates and/or opinions about the experience.

**Venryx** · 02-07-2017 12:11 AM

Attempt (long sleep, basically uninterrupted): failure

Sleep graph: Screenshot_2017-02-06-07-28-39.jpg

Had some vivid dreams, and a section that had the "lucid feel", but not actual lucidity (i.e. realizing "this is a dream").

Success rates:
Long sleep: 20/26(+13 interrupted) (12 weak, 8 full)
Post-sleep nap: 15/17 (2 weak, 13 full)
Isolated nap: 3/3 (1 weak, 2 full)

**Venryx** · 02-07-2017 05:18 PM

Attempt (isolated nap): weak lucid

Sadly, I again remember very little of this dream, as it occurred ~10pm last night, and I accidentally fell back asleep before recording it.

This keeps happening, so I'm going to try preventing it by: 1) buying a bluetooth microphone, 2) adding speech-to-text recording abilities to the app.

This will let me quickly switch on the mic and just start talking to record my dreams, instead of having to grab my tablet, unplug it, and type with my not-so-efficient on-screen keyboard. Hopefully this will lead me to recording many more dreams as soon as I awake, letting me then re-enable the voice prompts before deliberately going back to sleep, and thus get many attempts each night. I'll hopefully get it added in a few days (once my bluetooth mic arrives), but we'll see.

Success rates:
Long sleep: 20/26(+13 interrupted) (12 weak, 8 full)
Post-sleep nap: 15/17 (2 weak, 13 full)
Isolated nap: 4/4 (2 weak, 2 full)

**Venryx** · 02-08-2017 10:32 AM

Attempt (isolated nap): failure

Sleep graph: Screenshot_2017-02-08-01-29-46.jpg

Granted, there was very little rem sleep this session (so not much opportunity for lucid dreaming in the first place), but added for completeness' sake.

Success rates:
Long sleep: 20/26(+13 interrupted) (12 weak, 8 full)
Post-sleep nap: 15/17 (2 weak, 13 full)
Isolated nap: 4/5 (2 weak, 2 full)

**Venryx** · 02-08-2017 10:38 AM

Attempt (post-sleep nap): full lucid

Sleep graph: Screenshot_2017-02-08-00-47-31.jpg

Had a nice, long lucid. I have the dream mostly recorded, but it has some personal sections, and I'm too lazy to strip them out. But a summary:

=in bed, talking telepathically/technologically with alien/ai
=in car with acquantances
=in parking lot, talking and relaxing
=at theater parking/walmart
=talk at in-law's house
=in bed, fa, got out with imagination
=explored neighborhood

Success rates:
Long sleep: 20/26(+13 interrupted) (12 weak, 8 full)
Post-sleep nap: 16/18 (2 weak, 14 full)
Isolated nap: 4/5 (2 weak, 2 full)

P.S. I'll have to confirm this, but it seems to help if you enable the "background music" option for the RVP tool, and set it just loud enough that it's interesting and keeps your attention (I'm currently doing 12%, with 3 tracks playing simultaneously -- to mix it up). This helps to anchor your attention on the speaker/device, letting you keep the technique going, further toward the point of sleep.

Also, I'm coming to believe this technique works primarily by mechanisms similar to MILD, in that it's an electronic guide that helps channel your thoughts toward the intention and expectation of lucid dreaming and lucid dreaming triggers (eg the voice prompts). It's likely it also triggers those thoughts somewhat just from your subconscious audio surveillance picking up on the sounds while asleep--but it could also just be the expectation the falling-asleep process creates. (will need to be experimented with more, e.g. having the audio shut off a portion of the time and see whether that significantly affects the success rate)

**Venryx** · 02-08-2017 03:20 PM

Attempt (post-sleep nap): full lucid

Sleep graph: Screenshot_2017-02-08-06-01-33.jpg
Dream entry: 2017-02-08 05:58 -- Sermon, flying, blue shirts, ocean dive, island, fort, zombies - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Yes! Did not fall asleep accidentally this time, so was able to re-engage the prompts and get another success.

Success rates:
Long sleep: 20/26(+13 interrupted) (12 weak, 8 full)
Post-sleep nap: 17/19 (2 weak, 15 full)
Isolated nap: 4/5 (2 weak, 2 full)

**Irreo** · 02-08-2017 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Venryx

(...)

Yes! Did not fall asleep accidentally this time, so was able to re-engage the prompts and get another success.
(...)

Still didn't have the chance to test this, but I downloaded it yesterday and started playing a bit with the configuration and seeing what the app does.

Anyway, after reading your reports, I think I need a bit of clarification here...

I thought I was supposed to put this on, focus on the numbers to detect the "even / odd" patter, and just fall asleep, so then while in the dream my mind would say some numbers (maybe because it still hears then in the "real world").

But after reading what I'm quoting... am I understanding correctly? I mean... am I supposed to just try to stay concious, as if doing WILD? In this case, the numbers are just some kind of "anchor"?

Also, I'm not quite sure if this app auto-stops after a while, or if keeps repeating the numbers.

Thanks!

**Venryx** · 02-08-2017 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Irreo

Still didn't have the chance to test this, but I downloaded it yesterday and started playing a bit with the configuration and seeing what the app does.

Anyway, after reading your reports, I think I need a bit of clarification here...

I thought I was supposed to put this on, focus on the numbers to detect the "even / odd" patter, and just fall asleep, so then while in the dream my mind would say some numbers (maybe because it still hears then in the "real world").

But after reading what I'm quoting... am I understanding correctly? I mean... am I supposed to just try to stay concious, as if doing WILD? In this case, the numbers are just some kind of "anchor"?

Also, I'm not quite sure if this app auto-stops after a while, or if keeps repeating the numbers.

Thanks!

Your initial understanding was correct; the main behavior is just to focus on the numbers to detect the even/odd pattern, and fall asleep. And from the times I've tried that, it seems to work.

However, I've been experimenting with adding other behaviors into the "waiting time" between checking the numbers, to see if they help. And it's hard to tell, because either way the technique seems to work (it's possible it's also just that my perspective has changed somehow making me better at induction in general, but I doubt it), and I don't have enough data to make quantitative comparisons yet.

Unfortunately, I forgot to mention that one of the "behaviors" during wait times is this... to just lie there/fall asleep. (well, that sort of matches behavior #1, but it wasn't explained well)

And actually, this is what I'm experimenting with now: I modified my approach a couple days ago so there's background music playing in the "wait times", and all I do is focus on that music. Then when prompts occur, I do the even/odd check (and perhaps a recitation of my dream-goal quick-list), and then jump back into just focusing on the quiet music.

The above is actually what I'd recommend atm, which is closer to the initial concept than some of the other "wait time behaviors" described. I like it because not only does it seem to work just as well, it's more relaxing than some of the other options.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion! Hence the beta title, as I'm not even sure yet myself what components are helpful or not, so am bound to describe some things that aren't, and instead just complicate things. (time will tell if the simpler approach continues to work as well)

As for the quote, I wasn't referring to WILD or the like; I just meant that I turned the app back on before I started falling asleep again (with the target of a DILD).

Also, it doesn't currently have an auto-stop feature (since it's rarely bothered me past the initial fall-asleep period), but I can add the option in if you want. (I'd just put it under an "additional options" panel)

**Venryx** · 02-09-2017 06:12 PM

Attempt (isolated nap): failure

Sleep graph: Screenshot_2017-02-08-22-45-14.jpg

Granted, this was another case where there wasn't much rem present to become lucid in (it usually takes ~25 minutes of rem into lucidity is triggered for me), but it's included for completeness' sake.

Success rates:
Long sleep: 20/26(+13 interrupted) (12 weak, 8 full)
Post-sleep nap: 17/19 (2 weak, 15 full)
Isolated nap: 4/6 (2 weak, 2 full)

**Venryx** · 02-09-2017 06:15 PM

Attempt (long sleep, uninterrupted): full lucid

Sleep graph: Screenshot_2017-02-09-09-05-35.jpg

Managed to attempt one of my dream goals in this one (asking a friend for the names of his coworkers), but despite asking him twice, he refused to tell me -- instead saying some odd, four word phrase both times. (which I now don't remember as I fell back asleep after it (again -_-))

Success rates:
Long sleep: 21/27(+13 interrupted) (12 weak, 9 full)
Post-sleep nap: 17/19 (2 weak, 15 full)
Isolated nap: 4/6 (2 weak, 2 full)

**Venryx** · 02-10-2017 11:09 PM

Attempt (long sleep, interrupted): failure

Sleep graph: Screenshot_2017-02-10-08-53-58.jpg

Last night was not good; for the first time in over a week or something, I failed to gain lucidity in both the night sleep and the post-sleep nap.

I really hope this does not foreshadow a long-term drop in efficacy that seems to be the norm for techniques. Granted, it's lasted a good deal longer than others, but it still makes me nervous whenever it starts faltering.

Success rates:
Long sleep: 21/27(+14 interrupted) (12 weak, 9 full)
Post-sleep nap: 17/19 (2 weak, 15 full)
Isolated nap: 4/6 (2 weak, 2 full)

**Venryx** · 02-10-2017 11:12 PM

Attempt (post-sleep nap): failure

Sleep graph: Screenshot_2017-02-10-13-49-32.jpg

Success rates:
Long sleep: 21/27(+14 interrupted) (12 weak, 9 full)
Post-sleep nap: 17/20 (2 weak, 15 full)
Isolated nap: 4/6 (2 weak, 2 full)

**Venryx** · 02-10-2017 11:21 PM

Uhh, why was the first rem segment above interrupted only 15 minutes or so in? That usually represents an awakening from a lucid dream, and yet despite the "feeling" of lucidity after both last night and the above nap, I couldn't recall any specific memories of "knowing it's a dream".

I really need a more convenient way of dream journaling, so that it's so easy I do it after every rem cycle -- which would prevent the possibility of waking with memories of a lucid but then falling asleep again so quickly I forget about it later. (not saying that's what happened here, but if it keeps up like this it eventually will)

My current plan is to purchase a medium-sized bluetooth keyboard, and use that to type keywords after each awakening, without having to touch my tablet at all. (keyboard's more convenient as there's no need for a charger connection, and it's easier to type on)

**Venryx** · 02-11-2017 10:38 PM

Bad news:
Fell asleep without turning the app on, so missed another night. (was trying to plan something out for my book, but fell asleep in the process)

Good news:
I took a look at the source code of the S+ sleep-tracker app, and it does indeed stream the sleep-stage data throughout the night.

What this means:
I should be able to eventually replicate that in the LucidLink app, letting users wire it up to trigger custom events on entering/exiting rem sleep. It also keeps track of breathing rate, and apparently, even heart rate! (It has code for heart rate tracking, though I wonder how accurate it is. I know I did look carefully at the real-time "breathing rate" graph a few times (before checking the code), and was indeed able to discern regular small bumps matching my heartrate, so I know it's possible -- though don't know how reliably that's picked up between sessions.)

As the S+ device's rem-detection has been quite good from what I've seen (almost always being accurate on whether I awoke from rem or non-rem, for example), this is fantastic news as it means we'll finally have an "open" and easy to use means of detecting rem sleep, without having to wear a headband or the like or pay for an overly expensive device. (I got mine for $23 on ebay, but it also sells new for $50 on amazon, which is not bad)

Hooked up to the user script system, we could then have lots of people experimenting with different ways of signalling to the user about their dreaming state, once they're known to be in one. (I'm pretty confident there is such a way -- we just haven't found it yet)

My current plan is to have it play a loud but brief "ding" -- the intention being to wake the person up each time, but have it be short enough that you can then fall back into the dream consciously. This was also basically my intention with the Muse headband, but as mentioned, I didn't like how it restricted my sleeping positions -- so this is considerably better for people with difficulties falling asleep (like me).

Anyway, it will probably be a while as the S+ app's code is more substantial than I expected. But it's definitely within reach, and I'm pretty optimistic some good things will come out of it.

**Venryx** · 02-13-2017 10:34 PM

Attempt (post-sleep nap): full lucid

Sleep graph: Screenshot_2017-02-13-11-27-59.jpg
Dream entry: 2017-02-13 11:30 -- Voice prompt oddity, unstable walk, disintegration before dream goal question - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Back with another lucid. : )

The night sleep wasn't attempted because I was too tired and just went to bed. (didn't want to think about anything but sleep)

This is because I had been up a long time. Which is also why I did not have any attempts the previous night: I had stayed up through the night and throughout the next day (>24h) working on connecting my lucid link app with the S+ sleep tracker.

On that point: It's going well! I've got all the important code in place, I just need to figure out one last issue with the device seemingly not beginning an actual data-streaming session unless some detail of its config or communication pathway is correct. I must have messed something up in the code replication process. Anyway, I've gotten it to connect and change its light color, but not stream data yet, which is what I want since then I have access to light levels, temperature, and most importantly, its breathing rate data and its "sleep stage" value. (for its rem sleep detection, which I already know is good/accurate)

Anyway, hopefully another day or two, and then we'll have a cheap (relatively), contact-free, user-scriptable Android rem-detection platform. : )

Success rates:
Long sleep: 21/27(+14 interrupted) (12 weak, 9 full)
Post-sleep nap: 18/21 (2 weak, 16 full)
Isolated nap: 4/6 (2 weak, 2 full)

**Venryx** · 02-15-2017 12:32 AM

Attempt (post-sleep nap): full lucid

Dream entry: 2017-02-14 15:12 -- Vr game, space rock jumping, pool room crabs - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

A longer-than-normal lucid, however my lucidity was rather weak. I would have counted it a "weak lucid", however the almost-waking-but-then-using-anchoring-to-return was abrupt enough that I count it a "substantial reconnection with my waking state". (thus qualifying as a full-lucid)

No sleep graph this time as I was testing out my app's link with the S+, and only one app can connect at a time.

On that note, it's going well; I've now got it accessing the real-time streaming of the temperature, light level, and breathing data/patterns. Still working on the sleep-stage retrieval, however.

Success rates:
Long sleep: 21/27(+14 interrupted) (12 weak, 9 full)
Post-sleep nap: 19/22 (2 weak, 17 full)
Isolated nap: 4/6 (2 weak, 2 full)

**Venryx** · 02-15-2017 09:01 AM

It took 3 days, but I did it!

The app now successfully connects to the S+ sleep tracker, starts a sleep session, and receives an update with the breathing rate and sleep stage every 64 seconds!

Here are some screenshots: (I will add a nice UI for it soon, with graphs and such; the below was just for debugging)
Screenshot_2017-02-14-23-21-15.jpg
Screenshot_2017-02-14-23-21-30.jpg

This is, as far as I'm aware, now the best path available for lucid dreamers to track rem-sleep entry.
* It's relatively cheap. ($23 on Ebay, $50 on amazon)
* It's accurate. (at least for rem-sleep; it's almost never been wrong about whether I awoke from it)
* It's contact-free. (this one's very nice, as it means you can use it every night without discomfort)
* It's able to be accessed from custom code, on an Android phone/tablet, making it portable and very flexible. (since you can script whatever actions you want instead of relying on a closed developer adding them for you)

I'm excited to start trying this out with random ideas of what to script in as triggers for lucidity, once rem is detected -- the prior steps are set, we just need something to either:
* Get from the external world into your dream reliably, as a sign/cue.
* Wake you up, but do it lightly enough that you can go back to sleep right away for a DEILD. (I think this one will be more successful)
Because it's all managed in-app, the platform makes it easy to experiment with new ideas rapidly, so I'm optimistic it won't take that long to find something that works -- but we'll see.

Anyway, in the process of implementing the linkage, I made a partial monstrosity of the library's Java code, so I still need to clean stuff up before I upload the new feature to Google Play.

But seeing that it now works makes me really glad I went through with the process instead of delaying once I realized the amount of work involved.

Anyway, hope you guys can try it out sometime soon! It's a new era for lucid dream induction.

(okay, I'm being a little dramatic, but it is pretty exciting)