Thread: Why do hippies and new-agers like Hinduism?

Originally Posted by DrunkenArse

How would we become less stupid without changing anything else?

I'll rephrase. If you could will yourself to be less stupid, it would change things but not in a way that actually makes things better. For real improvement, something else is needed also, and without that the will for people to be less stupid is largely counterproductive.

Originally Posted by DrunkenArse

If one thinks clearly, then ones thoughts do a sufficiently adequate job of moving in parallel with reality to allow one to see trouble coming.

If one thinks as clearly as one can, one's thoughts move well enough in parallel with reality that trouble gets avoided or delayed for a while, or even a long time. But eventually it comes crashing through, stronger than it would have otherwise, because our cleverness has allowed us to push things further in an unnatural direction than we could have otherwise.

Originally Posted by DrunkenArse

I just want people to think clearly.

How appropriate is this extension of your own will to other people? I think some amount of that is reasonable, since no man is an island, and you are adversely affected by other people's stupidity. But it seems skewed to me, not in proportion, and as a result it doesn't work.

It reminds me of when I was about 4, my dad used to yell at me to stand up straight, because my back is a little bit horse shaped. But I could not, so all his trying to force me to change accomplished was to deform me emotionally. Trying to push other people to think clearly is like that also. And trying to push yourself to think clearly is even worse, it internalizes the abuse, where it acts directly.

Originally Posted by DrunkenArse

When asked a clear question, I want people to response with a clear answer or "I don't know."

My oldest son is very good with language, and a year ahead in school. My second son has a lot of trouble expressing his thoughts, and at 5 was barely ready for school. But the second boy is actually smarter than the first in some ways, his thoughts are deeper, less cliched, and more difficult to put into words.

If you ask me a question, who are you to dictate how clear my answer must be? If my response is hard to understand, you can choose to try to understand anyway, or to ignore it. But if I understand something important that's not easy for me to put into words, or maybe for anyone, its a waste to throw away the gem because its flawed or has dirt on it. And sometimes when it seems to you that the other person doesn't know the answer, its you who are blind, not them. Of course I try to be as clear as I can, and it would be better if I were capable of being clearer. But I can only do what I can.

Originally Posted by DrunkenArse

I want people to use words for the meaning they convey rather than the feelings they stimulate.

The feelings that words stimulate are necessary to the conveying of meaning. Feeling the words has to be done honestly and intelligently or it misleads. But there are many, many important things that can not be adequately understood without the feeling. And everyone has to start somewhere.

If you try to end stupidity by force of will, its inevitable that feeling should become both oversensitive and stunted in different ways however, because that use of will brutalizes feeling. Then feeling tends to be undervalued, in cycles. Such is my experience anyway.

Originally Posted by DrunkenArse

I am interested in people thinking about this world and the suffering in it in a clear and consistant manner to better understand its origins.

So how's that working out?

You're helping a little bit with the suffering I think.

And even a bit with the understanding.

But it runs into a wall. You likely convince no one. And that's a good thing, because anyone you did convince would come to hate you eventually.

And it seems you can't even convince yourself. If you hate stupidity, why are you 'drunken'? Alcohol is like bottled stupidity. This isn't ad hominem, if you're advocating a way of approaching the world, whether or not it works for you is directly relevant.

A apologize for my aggressive approach here. As I suggested, I am emotionally deformed, maybe from experience, maybe inherited karma from millenia of mental yoga. But that suffering is part of how I came to understand what I'm talking about here.

I refuse to read further through your post until you fix the following:

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

If you could will yourself to be less stupid

The gods of Paradox have let lose Catch-22, their Cerberus-esque fiend, unto you and chased you into the limbo that is Contradiction. Your words have lost all validity until your unbind yourself.

(Evidence:

If one thinks as clearly as one can, one's thoughts move well enough in parallel with reality that trouble gets avoided or delayed for a while, or even a long time. But eventually it comes crashing through, stronger than it would have otherwise, because our cleverness has allowed us to push things further in an unnatural direction than we could have otherwise.

You're implying a human psyche harmonious with physical reality has unnatural consequences and is even unnatural itself.)

Originally Posted by tempusername

You're implying a human psyche harmonious with physical reality has unnatural consequences and is even unnatural itself.

No. I'm implying that a human psyche can not become harmonious with physical reality by crusading against stupidity. It is itself a stupid approach, and leads to only a distorted kind of intelligence, without wisdom. It's like judging yourself harshly for feeling guilt. It misses something crucial and doesn't work.

Most English words have a variety of related meanings, such as must be deduced from context. If you choose to interpret my words in a way that makes no sense, without trying to understand them in a way that does make sense, then it doesn't matter how many times I restate the same thing, or how precisely and clearly I state it, you will never understand. So by all means, don't read further if you don't want to understand what I'm saying, if you would rather try to trap me in a straw man that exists only in your own imagination. Or let it go for any other more honest reason instead, that's fine too.

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

No. I'm implying that a human psyche can not become harmonious with physical reality by crusading against stupidity. It is itself a stupid approach, and leads to only a distorted kind of intelligence, without wisdom. It's like judging yourself harshly for feeling guilt. It misses something crucial and doesn't work.

Ay, there's the rub; for therein lies the contradiction: not only is the statement that anyone intelligent would pursue harmony by crusading against stupidity contradictory but also the fact you are expressing it to pursue harmony with reality yourself. It appears it is only within the irony of your predicament, shadowofwind, that we find true clarity. And seeing how the very faculties we use to distinguish reality are exactly those through which our stupidity manifests--therein lies the catch.

Basically I'm calling you an idiot.

I said "for real improvement, something else is needed also". I never suggested their is no value in intelligence, or for advocating for what one sees to be of value. I also suggested that wanting other people to be less stupid is a distortion, a problem of degree, not a mistake entirely. And you're absolutely right that I behave in a manner similar to what I was criticizing. I said quite directly that I myself am distorted in a similar manner. Furthermore I recognize that my perception and characterization of where you're coming from can't be completely flawless, though I can only do the best I can and respond to what I see, in hopes that you'll do your best to understand what I'm saying and correct any apparent skews in my perception. This only works if you do both though, correcting me and remaining open to improving your understanding of what I'm saying. In your fixation on the apparent irony of me criticizing you for criticizing stupidity, you're missing that criticism is only one aspect of what I've been doing, and that I have not been suggesting there is no place for it at all. As well as criticizing, I've also been reading your words as fairly as I can, and trying to communicate. It's hard to dialogue with someone who seems to be closed to hearing anyone though, who only wants to criticize. That leaves me with the option of withdrawing, which I did for a week, or to try to engage with your criticism, which I felt like while I was stuck at the office last night. I would much rather do less criticizing and more sharing, but I took the opportunity that presented itself, limited as it may have been.

In any case, if you remain convinced that I'm an idiot, not much is going to come of this discussion. This actually illustrates quite well my point, that your strident advocacy against stupidity has made you blind to your environment rather than more in harmony with it. You can't actually recognize the people you're talking to for who they are, and are understanding very little of what they are saying, apparently. You want the world to be less stupid, but the world you project is even more stupid than the real one, at least in this instance.

As a relentlessly self-critical person, I'm fairly well aware of the limitations of my intelligence. The stupidest thing I've been doing here is to hope against evidence that I can communicate with you, that anyone who runs afoul of your intellectual millitancy can communicate with you. But this isn't the same stupidity that you think you see, you would not be able to see it for what it is without understanding me.

Have a nice weekend.

It's not every day someone tries to critique and...by Jove! refute my claim to my own idiocy so elaborately! I'm flattered and truly honoured to have been momentarily esteemed to such a high pedestal of sincerity, though I can hardly bear it! You've really cornered me, y-you bastard! Pinned annd wriggling! I'll never second-guess myself again! Let the tears standing in my eyes vouch for this wretched nobility you've beset upon me!

Cheers to the weekend, INDEED! ;_;