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    Thread: Apartment neighbors doing drugs?

    1. #26
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      Glad you have lived such a safe life snoop.

      There are of course other places in the world that aren't like yours. Your accusations are downright insulting in fact. I have seen countless cases of violence and near fatal injuries happening, not to mention a few that resulted in death, every single time at least alcohol was involved.

      Our concerns for dragonswords safety are nothing but right, you just can't predict people taking drugs in large groups. There's certainly no win-win if you do get in a conflict with them. So please don't make assumptions about us either.
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    2. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      If street dealers started to claim that they were selling what they were to treat illnesses, would that make what they were doing any better? People get prescribed pharmaceuticals for the sole purpose of abusing and selling them quite often, not to mention pharmaceutical companies control a lot of the media in order to cement their niche in the market instead of allowing better alternatives that are safer and more effective to take their spot and make their money. Don't try to paint things like a pretty picture when they really aren't.
      So are you telling me that the distinction between pharmaceuticals and street drugs is only that one is illegal and is marketed for recreational uses and other is legal and is marketed for treating illnesses because last time I checked, pharmaceuticals don't tend to be sprayed with additives like fibreglass to give them more apparent bulk. I also don't recall a dealer complaining about all the FDA regulations he had to follow in order to set up shop. Hey, remember that time where that one street drug lengthened the average life expectancy of HIV positives from a few weeks to more than 40 years? No? Me neither.

      However, if you want to believe the reason why people choose the drugs produced by pharmaceutical companies over those produced by people (who's knowledge of chemistry and biology is at best variable) is solely because of the former's grip on the media and matters of legality, you're free to believe what you wish.
      Last edited by DeviantThinker; 09-09-2014 at 12:44 PM.

    3. #28
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      If the sloppy and polluted drugs you are talking about were legal, they would not have those problems. A lot of extra negatives come with prohibition, the most serious of which is the large and dangerous gang enterprising.
      How do you know you are not dreaming right now?

    4. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by DeviantThinker View Post
      So are you telling me that the distinction between pharmaceuticals and street drugs is only that one is illegal and is marketed for recreational uses and other is legal and is marketed for treating illnesses because last time I checked, pharmaceuticals don't tend to be sprayed with additives like fibreglass to give them more apparent bulk. I also don't recall a dealer complaining about all the FDA regulations he had to follow in order to set up shop. Hey, remember that time where that one street drug lengthened the average life expectancy of HIV positives from a few weeks to more than 40 years? No? Me neither.

      However, if you want to believe the reason why people choose the drugs produced by pharmaceutical companies over those produced by people (who's knowledge of chemistry and biology is at best variable) is solely because of the former's grip on the media and matters of legality, you're free to believe what you wish.
      WTF DeviantThinker! Do you really know what you are saying? Aderol and Ritalin are legal Crack. We as a whole world practically gave it to our kids thinking it wold calm Johnny down and help him think. Now a generation of twenty and thirty something year olds use meth and crack and coke so they can fucking calm down! On the other end of the spectrum Xanax is used for anxiety and is as addicting or more so than heroin. People OD on that shit all the time. We give billions of dollars to the pharmaceutical conglomerate Quarterly around the world and Thousands upon thousands of people die from prescription drugs every month and you back up the fucking FDA?

    5. #30
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      Kadie, the nature of the drugs bought at a pharmacist can be tracked, a street dealers cannot.

      I don't agree with the sentiment that drugs can solve most minor problems but if it's necessary then as pointed out by Deviant, you will at least be buying drugs that are only harmful by misuse and not a drug that has been sprayed with chlorine.

      There's a reason he italicized the word solely.

    6. #31
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      So, by deduction, and for the purpose of this thread, the noisy neighbors may not be doing illegal and or illicit drugs. Either way, in my opinion, the OP would be setting himself up for a lot of problems unless he can confirm there is illegal drug use going on and that is what is causing them to be loud and obnoxious. Again, why not simply introduce yourself and be nice, instead of jumping to conclusions?

      And for the record, there is an underground market for prescription pills as well, so the whole gang related issue with illegal drugs is pretty much null. Look, the cartels have their hands in a lot more than illicit, illegal, dirty drug deals.

      And no...this is what he is arguing.....

      {So are you telling me that the distinction between pharmaceuticals and street drugs is only that one is illegal and is marketed for recreational uses and other is legal and is marketed for treating illnesses...}

      Even the "legal" drugs are killing people and we are just a commodity for the manufactures. Or in other words, we pay the pharma King Pens and they lobby for power in Congress, just as the local street dealers do without the power coming from Congress. You and he are telling me it's O.K. because the FDA says so?

      Did you know the FDA patented marijuana back in the 1930's or 40's. Really? Now I can understand the concern with meth and heroin, and other street drugs in that class, but WHY on earth give a pass to the FDA for all the crap they label for human use? If the FDA was really in the business of safe products, why has it been so hard for marijuana to be decriminalized in the US?
      Last edited by kadie; 09-11-2014 at 07:35 PM.

    7. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by dutchraptor View Post
      Kadie, the nature of the drugs bought at a pharmacist can be tracked, a street dealers cannot.

      I don't agree with the sentiment that drugs can solve most minor problems but if it's necessary then as pointed out by Deviant, you will at least be buying drugs that are only harmful by misuse and not a drug that has been sprayed with chlorine.

      There's a reason he italicized the word solely.
      Where do you come up with the idea that pharmaceutical drugs are safe unless they are misused? This is false. Have you ever read the warning labels on a prescription?

      http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...bed-drugs.aspx
      Last edited by kadie; 09-11-2014 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Added link

    8. #33
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      Look kadie, I know all about the current drug status in the USA and other countries. I don't agree with any of it, I don't agree with prohibition or expensive pharmaceuticals. All I care about is clarity and education.

      You are arguing over a post that deviant made, he stated that the difference between recreational and pharmaceutical drugs is not solely an arbitrary legality. There is a double standard there, but it's a long shot to paint the pharmaceutical industry as entirely corrupt. An educated person will stray from any drug unless necessary because there is always an inherent risk, the problem is that the people aren't being educated.

      One thing I know for sure is that I would never buy drugs off a dealer, but I would from a pharmacist once I've done my proper research.

    9. #34
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      @ Snoop. Can't help but feel like being called out by you (Am not really offended by the way, especially with the way you worded your post).

      I based my post solely on my experiences with meth and prescribtions drugs abusing neighbours in my appartment complex. I came back from that standpoint just after posting my first reaction which was more or less instigated by the OPs general tone and convincement that his neighbours where actually using drugs. Logically speaking, Alcohol is simply a much more likely culprit in this case. I think I just didn't see that originally because of the provocative thread title. Also although i said Methamphetamine what I meant was generally Amphetamines and Cocaine and the sorts. I can see how Meth would be a different story altogether.

      My experience with drugs and prescription drugs by the way is low but I have had my hands on some prescription drugs and took only 2 pills out of curiosity. I didn't snort them. In less than an hour I was feeling quite speeded up and felt a tingling sensation all over my body which was quite pleasurable. I went around town feeling much more sociably capable and confident than normal. I think this is not much unlike illegal hard drugs like Cocaine or MDMA. Also, it was one of the more addicting things I tried and the craving I experienced afterwards was as much of a psychological craving as it was a biological one. Which just goes to show you that prescription drugs are really not at all different from illegal drugs.

      I agree with Kadie's sentiment about the FDA. Considering the time it takes to legalize something as unharmfull as Marihuana I woulden't be jumping on my toes to trust that the FDA is capable of doing a good job in handling and regulating what drugs are good or not good for USA's citizens. And when you actually do the research on the FDAs history in banning drugs like LSD for example. It is a general consensus that much of the banning of these drugs where for the most part fueled by Political propoganda by {oliticians who saw the Hippie movement as a great opportunity to win votes from the Liberals. Well if the FDA is that susceptible to propoganda it makes me wonder how much they are influenced by propogandists today who have an interest in maintaining the pharmaceutical companies and demonizing non-prescriptions drugs..
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    10. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      If the sloppy and polluted drugs you are talking about were legal, they would not have those problems. A lot of extra negatives come with prohibition, the most serious of which is the large and dangerous gang enterprising.
      Assuming that you were replying to my post, that has no relevance to my point. I am not arguing for prohibition, just making the (or so I thought) obvious statement that a drug produced by a pharmaceutical company has a far higher probability of being safe then something produced on the street.

      Quote Originally Posted by kadie View Post
      WTF DeviantThinker! Do you really know what you are saying? Aderol and Ritalin are legal Crack. We as a whole world practically gave it to our kids thinking it wold calm Johnny down and help him think. Now a generation of twenty and thirty something year olds use meth and crack and coke so they can fucking calm down! On the other end of the spectrum Xanax is used for anxiety and is as addicting or more so than heroin. People OD on that shit all the time. We give billions of dollars to the pharmaceutical conglomerate Quarterly around the world and Thousands upon thousands of people die from prescription drugs every month and you back up the fucking FDA?
      Adderal and Ritalin are legal crack? Hyperbole much? I know what you are saying though and yes these drugs often behave similar to amphetamines. However, you seem to have entirely missed the point of my post. The FDA was just an example of something that pharmaceutical companies have to answer to. I actually think the FDA has negative utility and should be dissolved to a midget of it's current self though I think my reasoning for that would differ drastically from yours.

      Businesses may employ shady practices here and there but they still have to answer to the law. The admittedly course brush of the law sweeps away any of the worst possible actions (again, I do not see an analogue to sprayed fiberglass). The rest however is mostly dealt with by third party parties that are not directly affiliated with the government but have their own special interests, whether it is scientific or pragmatic. Even if a pharmaceutical commits a foul act that dodges their radars at first, it will be brought to light eventually and there will be consequences.

      I will not deny that those consequences are not as big as they really should be but they will hurt the company in both finances and their image so it is in their own self interest to maintain a largely professional operation. You bring forth examples of legal drugs that have worsened the condition of humanity but you fail to then weigh the opposing side of drugs that have bettered humanity. The reason why we spend billions on pharmaceutical companies is because they are the only reliable source of such drugs.

      Many times more people die because of the delayed inception of treatments thanks to the FDA than are saved by the repealing of faulty pharmaceuticals. Don't blame the pharmaceutical industry as a whole, blame the system America has for regulation.

      However, whoever you think bears the brunt of the blame for this, I hope you at least accept that prescription drugs which have all of their possible side effects, recommended doses and instructions of usage in the packaging are going to leave you less harmed than a bag that has not such such information and indeed no way to trace it's site of production.

      P.S I am not saying that all of these risks will weigh out the possible benefits of acquiring currently schedules substances through illegitimate means. This is a very broad analysis to match the equally broad brush that you painted an entire industry with. If you know the dealer personally, trust them and have researched the substance thoroughly and decide that it has a positive net utility for you, purchase away if you must.
      Last edited by DeviantThinker; 09-12-2014 at 02:09 AM.
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    11. #36
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      However, whoever you think bears the brunt of the blame for this, I hope you at least accept that prescription drugs which have all of their possible side effects, recommended doses and instructions of usage in the packaging are going to leave you less harmed than a bag that has not such such information and indeed no way to trace it's site of production

      Did you read the link from my most recent post? MORE PEOPLE DIE EACH YEAR FROM PROPERLY PRESCRIBED AND APPROPRIATELY USED PRESCRIPTION DRUGS THAN ILLEGAL/ STREET DRUGS.


      http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...bed-drugs.aspx

      you can google it yourself and find plenty more just like it.

      Oh and by the way, let me drop this off here.
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/high-t...b_4174297.html

      Eat Crow Much there?

      Look, I agree with you on a lot of this, but to jump on snoops comment and make claims that street drugs are somehow more harmful that the majority of FDA approved drugs is what hit me wrong because it simply is not true.
      Last edited by kadie; 09-12-2014 at 08:45 AM.
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    12. #37
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      Thanks for the links Kadie (you may want to fix the first one though).
      I'm actually writing up an analysis that I will post later on today. I'm testing a hypothesis that I have concerning the number of deaths via illegal drugs vs prescription drugs. The hypothesis is that the higher number of deaths due to prescription drugs is explainable by the higher percentage of the population that uses them. I'll post it later once I've done all the math.

    13. #38
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      I can't really find some of the statistics that first article pedals anywhere else so I decided to work from my own chosen sources.
      My hypothesis was that the larger number of deaths due to pharmaceutical drugs was due to the higher percentage of the population using them.

      I first gathered the percentages of the population that use prescription vs illegal drugs:
      9.2% of Americans use illegal drugs as of 2012(1).
      68.1% of Americans use prescription drugs as of 2009(2).
      The chosen total population I will be using for the final calculation will be from the most up to date data.

      Now for the numbers of deaths:
      22,134 deaths due to pharmaceuticals as of 2010.
      17,000 deaths due to illegal drugs as of 2000(3).

      The total population of the USA was 316,148,990 as of 2013(4).

      Now for some maths:
      Since the figure for deaths due to illegal deaths was from 2000 which was down by 3000 deaths from 1990, we will take the liberty of reducing the figure by another 3000 deaths. The revised figure that will be used for the calculations is 14,000 deaths.

      Number of drug users:
      318,148,990 * 0.681 = 216,659,462 people who use prescription drugs
      316,148,990 * 0.092 = 29,085,707 people who use illegal drugs.

      Percentage of fatalities:
      22,134 / 216,659,462 * 100 = 0.0102 % fatality percentage per prescription drug user user.
      14,000 / 29,085,707 * 100 = 0.0481 % fatality percentage per illegal drug use.

      Conclusion: Prescription drugs are more than 4 times as safe as illicit ones.

      Discussion:
      Though the methodological errors in this rough analysis are many, I do not believe they are sufficient to overcome the massive disparity between the two.

      The figure for number of deaths for illegal drugs was from 2000 so there is a disparity of more than 10 years to account for. It is not at all clear whether subtracting 3000 deaths from the figure adequately covers for this. It could be that the downwards trend has a steeper fall or could even have reversed. However, it would take a massive fall in deaths for this to change the conclusion which is very unlikely even given the recent strides America has taken towards decriminalization.

      There is also the fact that many deaths due to illicit substances will go unreported as such which means any statistics regarding scheduled substance abuse will be less reliable than prescription drugs. The same point goes against the percentage of Americans who use illegal drugs. The true percentage is likely higher. This would be difficult to impossible to account for so it has to be accepted given our current state of knowledge.

      Sometimes, in clinical environments, it is hard to separate an adverse reaction from an improper administration of a drug. It could be that many deaths attributed to a pharmaceutical drug are due to improper dosages rather than the fault of the drug itself. However, the reverse applies too. It could be that a widely prescribed drug with many suitable substitutes is being used despite having an unacceptably low LD50. Sometimes as in the case of paracetamol, the risk of an overdose could be eliminated altogether if the pills were supplemented with a another substance. In that case, overdoses can be partially attributed to the greed of companies eager to cut corners for cheaper production.

      I have also failed to analysis individual substances but merely gave a broad look. The most commonly used scheduled drug is cannabis which has an LD50 so high that you would die from suffocation long before the THC kills you. In contrast, many commonly used prescribed drugs are far more dangerous. However, the fact that despite this, the percentage of deaths for illegal drugs is still far higher makes the result even more striking.

      It is clear that the legality of a substance can sometimes plays a bigger role in how safe it is than the nature of the substance itself!

      Sources:
      1. FastStats - Illegal Drug Use
      2. http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org...357-1/abstract
      3. Annual Causes of Death in the United States | Drug War Facts
      4. Population Clock
      Last edited by DeviantThinker; 09-12-2014 at 06:12 PM.
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    14. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by DeviantThinker View Post
      9.2% of Americans use illegal drugs as of 2012(1).
      68.1% of Americans use prescription drugs as of 2009(2).

      22,134 deaths due to pharmaceuticals as of 2010.
      17,000 deaths due to illegal drugs as of 2000(3).

      85% of the 9.2% of Americans using illegal drugs just smoke weed. Since marijuana can't realistically kill you, those users have skewed the data.

      Source: my ass. But I'm somewhat serious. But not really. I'm a wet towel, so just ignore me.
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      I know you are joking somewhat but I have addressed Saint Mary Jane in the discussion section.

      You have however touched upon a philosophical problem: what does Towelie use to dry himself with?
      Last edited by DeviantThinker; 09-12-2014 at 06:21 PM.

    16. #41
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      Percentage of fatalities:
      22,134 / 216,659,462 * 100 = 0.0102 % fatality percentage per prescription drug user user.
      14,000 / 29,085,707 * 100 = 0.0481 % fatality percentage per illegal drug use.

      Conclusion: Prescription drugs are more than 4 times as safe as illicit ones.
      That's a big generalization. It just means less people die from prescription drugs but says nothing about the actual drugs itself. The data ignores quantity and purity, and I know that this is part of your argument but, for example, people could be using exactly the same drugs as the prescription drugs but in higher doses and in unsafe settings and die as a result. A lot of these illegal drugs are most likely legal prescriptions drugs obtained by illegal means.

      Also, illegal drug use is more or less oriented towards recreation for the most part. Prescription drugs, not so much. I understand it will take some work but I think real fruit may bear from analyzing individual groups of drugs. If 50% of the american population is prescribed a Paracetamol for example, I don't see how that information is comparable to illegal drug use and should be excluded.


      Discussion:
      Though the methodological errors in this rough analysis are many, I do not believe they are sufficient to overcome the massive disparity between the two.

      I think that the difference between Recreation and Therapeutic use is a factor here. The disparity between the two might be the sole cause for using drugs in a recreational setting as opposed to in a therapeutic setting. Which is to me a very valid argument when analyzing the data. Recreational use is much more likely to escalate and result in abuse and death. This is significant because I believe that the death toll on illegal drug use is close to zero among those who use it for therapeutic values. And those who use it for prescription more than likely do it for therapy, or else they woulden't be able to (lawfully) get a prescription. In this case, if only half of the 22.000 deaths per year by prescription use are from legitimate normal dose usage for people who want help with their depression or understimulated children is a pretty worrisome number. And that does not take into account failed therapy or any sort of sickness/disease caused by drugs.

      Honestly, I respect ur effort. And I find it worthwhile information. But I just do not accept your conclusions and I believe my points are valid counterarguments for them.
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    17. #42
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      Prescription drugs are the fourth leading cause of death in America. Whether or not anyone chooses to piece meal the percents attributed to illegal drugs or not, it remains a serious problem.

      keep in mind the 100,000 deaths a year were only a portion of deaths from conventional medicine. Below is another link that explains this.
      http://www.collective-evolution.com/...owing-problem/
      Last edited by kadie; 09-12-2014 at 07:53 PM.

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