Thread: DreamViews Dead?

Originally Posted by yuppie11975

So, is it just me - or is this place dead in terms of activity nowadays?
It's been a while since I've checked in (around a month or two) but it seems that no one is around any more.
At the very least, the people who I'm used to seeing around here aren't active any more.

Thoughts?

hehe...yes...yes it is not quite dead...but compared to what it used to be it might as well be. There is always activity as far as newbie stuff goes and regulars still frequent the off topic forums quite a bit but the growth has stagnated this is true...DV is in limbo currently and will probly not die unless the hosters decide the site isnt making them enough money. Take a look at google stats if you are curious to see the trend over the last 2 years. Its not dead, just slowly being strangled from the inside. On the other hand, the core community is gone..yeah...that part is dead...but the outward, on the surface material is still going strong...

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

On the other hand, the core community is gone..yeah...that part is dead...but the outward, on the surface material is still going strong...

To add to that, I think the dream sections are doing fine but the off-topic sections aren't as lively as they used to be. Some of the "key" older members left, and others were banned. I think more than anything, losing that group of members sucked the life out of certain sections (eg. Extended Discussion).

At least in my mind, people like Jeff777, no-Name, Xei, Chimpertainment, that other guy with the ape in his avatar, etc. either gave the place a sense of structure by guiding discussions, or added more "color" through their charisma/personalities alone. Even "trolls" or "antagonists" like Seroquel, greenhavoc, etc. gave threads a certain depth simply because they had differing (or even off-the-wall) opinions that the rest of us could bounce ideas off of.

As far as site traffic stats go...
dreamviews.com Site Overview

This doesn't provide a very long term picture, but you can see this year. Most years traffic spikes in the summer but the opposite happened this year. At the time of sale in 2007, the previous owner of the site sold DV for aprox 17.5k. At the time, the sites ranking was 28,000 in the US which is pretty good. This year, it touched 60,000 a couple times but has since plunged below 80k....Its safe to say since the traffic has basically been cut to a 1/4 of its sale ranking, the value will also be dropping drastically. Monthly income was at 500 net at the time of sale at that traffic level. At this point, keebali will be making much less money than in the past. If the trend continues, it may not bode well for DV. I guess time will tell.









Also this....

dreamviews.com Website Traffic and Information | TrafficEstimate.com

Monthly visitor traffic is down 39.7% year over year

Im sure there are ways to turn it around...but that would take some pretty seismic change...

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

Im sure there are ways to turn it around...but that would take some pretty seismic change...

I think a well coordinated attempt at revitalizing the off-topic section with more engaging threads would be a good way to start. The dream sections pull people in, but the off-topic section is what traps keeps them here.
-------
Brainstorm?

- ED could use a wider range of topics to discuss, Artists Corner has been kind of dormant for a while, Fitness and Health is practically dead, etc. We should take a good look at each section, identify which ones are struggling and figure out why, then brainstorm possible solutions.

- We could use an "anchor" for each section - a thread that will stay alive and keep people coming back to it (like "Rant and Rave, Cry and Complain" in The Lounge).

- We might also want to think about using certain main forums as "launchpads" for new threads before we relocate them to sub-forums. eg. A new thread about evolution would be posted in the Extended Discussion main forum, and then after a certain number of replies has been met or a time limit has expired, the thread would be moved to the Science and Mathematics sub-forum. This would maximize exposure for each thread and give it a chance to gain traction before being sent to the less-frequented sections.

I like the way you think, sir.

I appreciate your sentiment Gavin. DV has meant a great deal to me over the past 4 years and I would hate to see it go. On the other hand, I have done my part is attempting to change the current paradigm and it didn't turn out too well. Those in leadership have completely ignored my advice and my efforts have gone noticed without effect. With the forum currently in the hands of people who have overseen its downfall, I just don't have the time or energy to fight the negativity that is causing DV to falter. This forum is not a democracy. The community no longer has consistent solid contributors and they left because of bad leadership. This I cannot change. Leadership must change and as of yet, their stubbornness to recognize their own deficiencies has precipitated inevitable failure.
Solid, core community members have raised the alarm about these issues for literally YEARS. Those in charge have no personal motivation to change their perspective in the least. There is no threat to their control so why do anything to improve. And so what happens? Those core community members leave because their voices are unheard. This has been happening with DV for quite some time. Its no wonder the site is rotting from the inside. It may as well be a lucid dreaming informational website with a smidgen of social interaction on the side. DV is a shadow of the community that it used to be.
Essentially, those who make the decisions obviously don't realize that it is the connections people make with one another that holds together this community. These are real people with real ideas and thoughts and feelings. Unfortunately, its like we are all just words and symbols in their eyes. We are nothing more than a hobby to them, not a community. They lack the commitment, respect, and consideration to adequately understand the needs of an online community. My cynical side tells me it wouldn't matter even if they did. I sense a vast gulf between them and the community. And yes, my inner jedi is coming out.

I know I am rambling, but I guess my point is....Look at the community forum...It hasn't been active since 2012. Nobody actually cares if this forum grows or develops! There are a couple people who in an intense time of ideological fervor believe they can change everything and make it all better but lets be honest. When the leadership only cares about retaining control instead of the health of the community, the community will die. The old regulars just want things to continue as they did and fail to realize the illness DV has come down with.

I have said so much in the past and in this post it seems useless at this point. The forums existence is based on monetary gain and the leadership have lost touch with any kind of community that formerly existed. Whats to say or do? The only thing that would change things is if those "leading" were to step down and let people who actually care do something about the massive failure this forum is becoming.

When DV was sold in 2007, it was advertised as the largest lucid dreaming community on the web. That is still true. Will it stay true? I don't think so. Unless those who have taken DV to this place finally realize what they have done and leave. Release the obsessive, paranoid, maniacal control, and give it back to the community. Is that too far? Cuz its the truth. And if the truth is too far, you are probably part of the problem.

Get ready for a LONG reply..

I'm not even sure where to start, so I'll just start talking:

I'm sure folks are sick of hearing me say this, but I've been on DV for a long time. I've noticed a particular pattern, and it's usually something that boils down to Staff vs. Community vs. New Members. In the past, new members were pretty much abused "n00bz" and that was that. And when I challenged it, I got shot down (not counting original owner icedawg and admin Seeker; they were proponents of new members and ended up spear-heading the Dream Guide program). Anyway, once the site was purchased, suddenly "n00bz" became a commodity. I wanted to include that little background info.

I went to a battered women's shelter from 2006-2008, then couldn't really afford internet or time or both from 2008-2009 when I met the most amazing man in the world. Put simply, for that time frame, I couldn't devote my time to being on staff. In that time, DV was purchased and sold twice, and the forum feel changed. The upside to all this was the fact that Alex became a super cool owner and active member, at least on irc from what I can tell. When I joined staff again a couple years ago, I noticed several huge things happening, good and bad: Dream Views Academy was a thing! Forum majorly hacked by Russians, wtf Massively active Dream Guide Program (thanks to Matte) Mods and Admins DEAD

Can't say I was surprised, DV has always been a fluctuating roller coaster ride, even before icedawg originally sold it. I remember back in 2004/2005, (and I'm sure folks are sick of hearing about this too), some DV staff and DV community wanted to "take back the forums!" because the newbies were annoying. They would post questions that had already been answered in older threads. But the forum was growing, so a question about Dream Signs, for example, might have been bumped backwards 3 pages at this point. When a forum gets huge, suddenly it's better to start a new thread about an old topic, than it is to necro. A tough balance, but nevertheless it's a thing.

I'm straying from Chimpertainment's points, I know, but I had a lot to say about alot of things, so please bear with me. When he mentioned that his advice was ignored, that was me. He sent me a long PM about a current staff member. He mentioned that the particular staff member shouldn't be on staff anymore. He made good points, but I didn't agree with them. I'm sorry, I should have replied to you Chimp, and I guess I didn't because I knew that I would basically be telling you that "No, I don't agree with you." There's been alot of talk lately about "staff transparency" and I can't help but to feel that it's more of a relief of symptoms than of the actual issue. I WANT to explain all staff actions, and at the same time, I feel like it can be a bad idea sometimes. Usually, (meaning my experience on this forum), when community members want staff transparency, it's because a member (or better yet, multiple members) have been banned. Multiple ACTIVE members. I know it looks scary, and as I'm typing this, saying "oh that looks scary!" sounds very condescending, but I mean this sincerely. More than a few members who were core community on DreamViews IRC have been permanently banned. If I may, I would like to take a moment and direct attention to the fact that I banned them. It has to be said, because I don't believe that scapegoating is right. Anyway, these bans were based on multiple criteria, but mainly:

1. Already having multiple infractions and/or previous bans
2. Being a toxic force with respect to staff (example: publicly criticizing staff promotions [remember Seroquel? At least he criticized staff promotions in IRC queries, of course he ultimately got permabanned for imperative suicide statements towards another member.).)
3. And finally, members who took advantage of the fact that our IRC burped in a big, bad way, and kicked/banned members of staff, and then +oped their pals, got varying degrees of banishment. "Oh, it was a joke, staff shouldn't take it so seriously." Only problem with that thinking is the fact that it WOULD have been ok and funny, had it not been a form of revenge from members who were already in trouble for having been previously infracted over the years for varying reasons (even before gab and I were admins. Something to consider guys).

Ok, to get straight to it, this sounds like alot of mess, and what makes it worse is the fact that rules in the past were not enforced at all by staff, and now they are. I'm not against a balance between the 2 extremes. To be honest, I'm kinda waiting for some of the issues to bury themselves before working out compromises. This isn't an easy job for ANY of our current staff. They have to do the extreme mod work AND find a way of communicating with everyone in a way that follows the rules, they have to find a way to respect past and current staff as well as honor current AND old community, and they have to do it all in between their real life jobs and sleep.

It seems like the biggest complaint is democracy. Community and retired staff members want to have a huge say so in how the forum is run. I personally don't see a problem with this, but it needs to be done in a proper manner. Staff has to follow protocol, so same to y'all. Members want to make changes, that's wonderful! I have 2 ears and they work well. PMing me is fine, I do listen, believe this. But when folks wait for a massive rebellion to occur, then get pissy and THEN suddenly have demands; OR, members come up and tell me who I shouldn't have on staff, then I see that as only criticisms without solutions. And my motto is: if you ain't part of the solution, then you is part of the problem. Don't forget, this forum ultimately belongs to Alex/Keebali union type thing. We have limited resources as volunteer staff. So it's probably a good idea to help us. And don't tell me that unbanning previously banned members are the solution. I really don't like getting PMs about this kind of thing. Those banned members may make some members want to stay, but they also make members leave. Do you have the exact ratio? I'll listen big time to that, if you do have those figures. Otherwise, please don't drudge up previously banned members. It decreases morale and I don't appreciate it.

To end this novella, and I love this saying, "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar." I know I have used vinegar in the past from time to time. And it is wrong. I have seen past staff use this method too and I hate it. I will endeavor to use more sugar from now on as well. Also, keep in mind please that rules are rules, so if it's an issue of implementing rules in a nicer way, then that's already solved. Because that's an easy fix and should have been fixed yesterday. But, if it's an issue of not liking the already established rules, then y'all's beef is with the owners. Don't make it about me and gab, and us having no accountability. DreamViews has always been this weird and unique balance of ontopic lucid dream talk, and community weirdness (in a good way). I would really hate to see either one diminish. But as long as I'm around, I'll fight for both.

Sincerely, Ophelia

PS. PM me and I WILL reply. Even if I don't like it, I'll still reply, ok?

PP.SS. I'd love to talk to you about them anchor and launchpad ideas, GavinGill. Whenever you have the time.

Originally Posted by OpheliaBlue

Get ready for a LONG reply..

Make it hurt. >:3

EDIT: I should have hit refresh, my body wasn't ready for that.

Well, yeah, that's basically the essence of why I started this thread.
I didn't want to be transparent, because the last thing I wanted was to propagate conflict in my first post after returning to DreamViews.
Anyway, now that the cat is out of the bag, and now that I've aged ten years reading through Ophelia's essay...
I don't know, to be honest, the reason I remained an active member was because of the thriving community we had - even if it was only comprised of less than 100 people.
I can completely understand this site's desire to make profit; timeless capitalism, right?
However, having said that, I sincerely feel like a balancing act wouldn't be a difficult convention to establish.
I mean, fundamentally, the people here are interested in Lucid Dreaming - it's literally why they came here in the first place. Furthermore, people yearn for peace and stable environments, I think it's difficult for anyone to say that all this controversy has been created organically or on some sort of magical whim.
Now, obviously I don't have the solution, but I'm sure that if DV could establish at least a partial democracy, and everyone could begin to work together, we'd be well on our way to a brighter tomorrow for this beloved forum of mine.
Don't forget why we're all here - this place can be beautiful. It's the reason I've stuck around here for years.

Lucid dreaming needs to be promoted more in general, then more people will come, regardless of who the mods/staff are. Also on average theirs like 10-20 members online with 200+ guests. We need to find a way of getting more guests signed up!

p.s, what was happening then:

'Most users ever online was 3,558, 2012-11-24 at 05:01.'

I hear what you're saying Yuppie, and you know, I'm not 100% against some level of democracy around here. I was kinda trying to ween it back in a little with the "vote for new smileys" thread. Next we were hoping to have community vote on new DJ categories. But I can only involve you guys in decisions that gab and I have access to. Other than things like that, not sure what you meant by partial democracy.

I also agree that it's nice to have a balance of content and community. Members show up for the content, then they stay for the community. The site owners are totally uninvolved with that, regardless of what profit they're after. So it's up to us active staff and you community to come up with something there. And I'm always up for suggestions on that.

To Barry: I think Alex explained to me once that the 200+ guests are just spammers, crawlers and bots(??). Still we get maybe 5-10 legit members registering everyday, so that's something. Our ranking is decent for "Lucid Dreaming" and "Lucid Dreaming Forum" too. But there again, like Yuppie was talking about, to get these new members to keep coming back, is to see a fun community to join. Either by joining the preexisting one, or helping to form a new one or both. As for the 'Most users ever online was 3,558, 2012-11-24 at 05:01.' I'm not sure haha! I was there for it but I don't remember what was going on that day.

"It seems like the biggest complaint is democracy."

Not in the least. I have never expected DV to become a democracy. Sure in certain instances of special projects where there are several people involved there should be consensus and generally when a group is involved the entire group should be on board with whatever that group is working toward.
The reason why I mentioned that is to implicate the blame on those specific individuals whose decisions have made DV what it has become. DV is amazing. Its current form is somewhat different than when it began and I get that things change; however, it is basically the same that it has always been save the people who occupy these digital halls.

There are reasons for DV faltering. There will always be drama between people. We are all different so we have to hash things out. That kind of thing has always been a part of DV. What hasn't been a part of DV is a slow but steady decline. There have been ups and downs, but this is different.
The lucid dreaming community at large is growing pretty quickly. Every month there are new books on lucid dreaming, new scientific studies, new youtube/internet personalities promoting lding. LDing in here to stay and its community will continue to grow. DV on the other hand has actually been following a track quite the opposite of the larger trend. This typically happens when something stagnates, then everything else moves along with the change. That stagnating body that refuses to change or grow will simply die. That is how evolution works. There are other LDing websites out there. DV ironically has provided many of them with solid, experienced lders.
The interesting part for me is that DV used to be a vibrant community. Like i said before, if you have access to the community forum, go take a look. There are threads there from people many of us remember. Did they leave just as part of some natural conflict between people? Did they just get bored with lding and decide to do something else? Maybe they moved to a different website they prefered? Of course all these things happen as part of a community. Yet if that community is healthy, it will continue to develop, grow and change.

As far as saying that I was referring to you OB, that isn't exactly correct. You are one of many so in a way yes, I am referring to you but there are others as well. I suppose it might be easy to blame one person, dust my hands, and walk away. Unfortunately its not that simple. There are larger trends at work than just the influence of a single person even if that single person has the power to do what needs to be done.

Also I understand there are many things that happen behind the scenes that most forum members can't see. Nobody is getting paid to keep this website running except for the people who have almost zero involvement in the actual content being published. There are always obstacles to growth, and most improvements probably take money which in turn requires permission from those providing the money needed to keep this site running. In other words: If the owner of this site feels it is fine as is, and feels change would cost more than its worth, its more than likely nothing will happen. At least until the site is no longer making money and then they will just pull the plug to cut their losses. I doubt they could find a buyer for a website that is losing money.

On the other hand, I am also sure there is a way to make this site profitable while also satisfying the community's needs. And that is the part where it all breaks down. If we are not willing to do what is necessary to make DV a success, then it will not survive.

Ya know, when we went through all this bs last year, the admins stressed that those unhappy with the forums were a tiny fraction of the forums population and that is true. It just so happened to be an active, veteran fraction of members on the forum. And you can say I am pointing fingers at this point because if you have been at DV for any amount of time you will understand. If you have only a few people making all the choices while ignoring their core community, things are not going to go well. Especially when that core community is then lumped into a single boat, chastised, branded, and insulted. It might be getting to heavy for some so I'll come back to the easy stuff.

DV is first a collection of people coming together. We humans call that a community. How it survives through cash, organization, presentation, location, etc. is all secondary. And for some reason, (I could make guesses but I think people should decide on their own instead of deciding whether I am right or someone else is right) that community has all but evaporated. Current staff members have made a valiant effort to reverse the trend and bring new life to the forum. I think we can see that is not helping. It takes more than just staff members to keep a community going. That for some reason completely escapes the perspective of the current leadership. If you take a good look at the community forum. You will see members who were not staff making massive contributions to the forum. These people were the pillars if you will. The strands of the web reaching from the center to outer edge. And those are all but gone. There are still some die hard members that come through every so often but they don't remain very active. That is probably why they are still here. If you spend so much time investing into something to have it ripped away, it can be very disheartening.

Well there is my book. I am not interesting in conflicting with anyone. I will just tell what I believe is the truth of the matter and let it lay where it will.

But WHAT IS the core community, when it changes so often over the years? Also, solution orientation is more important than blame. I like solutions, so use this.

Unfortunately the core community is gone. It really didn't change much for around 5 years. This fiction that DV has recycled several versions of itself is just that, a fiction. I believed this for some time because I trusted the word of one who spent more time here than me, then I spent several hours digging through forum records and found that is not the case at all. Sure over the entire span of the forum most names and faces have changed, yet through everything, there are some people who stay. Sadly, even the majority of those people have left. I have been around here for just over 4 years. It was said to me that DV goes through a recycle every year or two. This is obviously a mistaken observation. Many people have dedicated years to this site only to leave to another lding site. They left for a reason, not just because it was time for a recycle. They still want to contribute to the overall lding community but find no space to do so here at DV. I have stated solutions in the past and will leave a link to when I spent a considerable amount of time observing then stating my observations last year.

http://www.dreamviews.com/meta-forum...st-locked.html

One final note: There are many people who have decided to remain silent on this subject. Sadly, those are some of the most involved people that were a part of the forum. They had their say and when it was completely ignored, they walked away. As for me, I am more stubborn than the average bear and I also enjoy a good scrap, so of course I will happily jump into the bs just to show everyone there is a nugget of truth hidden beneath it all. Who knows if it makes a difference or not, I just enjoy being annoying. exposing lies is also a wonderful side effect of that hobby of mine...
In summary...The core is gone. In the big picture, it is because of the way DV is structured. You really need the right people in the right place to make this site hum. In the short term, it is because of a complete lack of awareness or an over-abundance of indifference on the part of leadership, I haven't quite decided which as of yet.

The longer this thread stays up, the more my point is made. Those core members should be here by now, telling me off and saying how amazing this ol' DV has been. We have no idea what you are talking about Chimp, they would say. You need to go back to your tree they might add.
Ofc, like I have said before. Please, take a look at the community forum. That is to me, the true test of the forums health. Are there still people willing to give of their own creativity to make this a better place? Evidently not. Just a blow hard monkey screaming about some emperor with no clothes on in an obscure corner of the forum...

I'll just chip in here (knowing full well that, alas, historically I tend to enflame things by getting involved).

I'm here (in DV) for the dream-related issues, not for the socializing chit-chat. If I can ask a question, and get insightful answers, and in return provide insightful answers to others, then DV fulfills what I hope for from it.

For the past few months I have been less active in posting than in the year before. Partly this is because fewer of the recent threads started by others have seemed interesting to me, and partly because I myself have had nothing important to share. That happens, and my activity level will most likely bounce back at some point. It is only natural if the activity level of people waxes and wanes.

For me, a forum-based community is all about the members, and staff-policies are virtually irrelevant; society does not fare better because of strong leaders, but because of strong members. As for the idea of a "core" of members in DV, I don't really buy into it, because members change all the time (people get into something with great enthusiasm, but gradually they drop out, and only few will stay on for the long haul). And even those long haul members change over time, so you couldn't really say that they are the same as they once were. We all change, all the time (thank God! )

Maybe the reason for the low activity level in DV currently is that people have "better" things to do than being active here. It seems to me that people in general are, even more so now than before, unwilling to do things, that are difficult. Most appear to prefer everything served up on a platter before them. But getting something out of dreaming takes hard work, and there may simply not be the same willingness to do that anymore.

Anyway, I would much prefer to find a few good posts around DV every day, than oceans of witless junk - or, to put it somewhat more elegantly - I prefer quality over quantity. And there is still high quality around DV.

Well avid readers...Sorry about that dead link in my last post. It appears the admins didn't like that I was giving you all context and decided to delete the post I was linking to. There was a large discussion on this topic that was active last year around this time but that has also since been deleted. If you all are interested in seeing my post I have saved it on my hd just in case something like this happened.

Voldmer, I appreciate your coming here and adding to the discussion. The more people that are aware of this situation the better. I can accept your perspective and I think it is valid. But in communities there are always core members. Malcolm Gladwell likes to call them connectors. They are extremely active socially and create an interactive substrate for a community to build upon. Without them, you will only have surface interaction without development or growth. Sure people come and go. But what about when there just isn't that core anymore? What happens when nobody replaces those that left? Like I have said before, all the normal activity of a community is present at DV. We are the same as all the other humans. However, this situation is much different than those in the past that DV has gone through.

And one final note of reply to your post Voldmer: "But getting something out of dreaming takes hard work, and there may simply not be the same willingness to do that anymore." This may be true for some, but shouldn't there be more to replace them to freshen the stock as you had previously suggested? This is a huge symptom of DV's illness. Those core members I keep talking about are the ones creating those deep, quality posts. They are the ones creating new sub forums, and making their own special groups. They explore and investigate lding beyond just learning the basics. That used to be a huge part of DV and it has since disappeared.

Let me be clear about my intentions. It is stated clearly in DV rules that if you have a problem with administration, you must take your complaint to a secure forum where no one else will see your thread. This being in the interest of keeping any personal issues private. Unfortunately there is no place on this forum for a group of members to air complaints to the community at large except maybe the community forum which as I keep saying has been inactive for quite some time.

Here is even more clarity. There is a large group of members that see problems with the forum whether it may be because of staff or otherwise. These problems are rarely if ever discussed, and then when they are, the conversation is locked, and deleted. Sure I am one voice and I am easy to dismiss. So look around. Look at the community forum. This group I refer to would prefer to simply remove themselves from the drama rather than cause any more problems than already exist. And I can completely empathize with that. As I previously said, most members that were dissatisfied made the easy choice of going to other lding forums.


To be honest, I am not just here to fight or argue or just because I am stubborn. I am here posting these things because I still hold onto hope for the forum. Yeah, call me dramatic but I can see the writing on the wall. I still believe DV is the best lding forum on the web. I believe that because for a long time, DV was always about connecting with others. This picture sounds bleak I know and looking at the forum in a glance you would think I must have a personal grudge and am trying to undercut the current staff. Sure I am annoyed at the direction the forum has taken and like I said before, I wish it was as easy as killing off one person and saving the world. This isn't hollywood however, and it takes the entire community to become aware of the problem for any positive action to take place. If satisfying my anger was all it took, the problem would have been solved by now. That isn't how life works though.

At this point, there is almost an entirely new staff team from this time last year. Most people that I met when I first got onto the forums have since moved to other lding forums and carried their horror stories with them. Its just luck that I found a place to vent my own personal view. Otherwise I would just let DV do whatever its gonna do. When I first came here, there was a sense of cohesion and professionalism. There was a general feeling that DV was really helping the lding community. Maybe its because I was blind to the reality or perhaps things have changed. I'm not quite sure. The sad truth is there aren't enough of us left to make any meaningful change. We shall see i suppose.

Originally Posted by OpheliaBlue

Also, solution orientation is more important than blame. I like solutions, so use this.

^^

Potential solutions - We could allow members of the DV community to elect staff members to represent them because democracy. We could also have Spaghetti Tuesdays on Wednesdays.

Or staff could nominate and community vote. Or vice versa.

I'll have to check the budget for spaghetti nights though..

I think it's impractical to have the community vote on every single decision. But you could have the community nominate people to become staff members. These staff members would act as representatives for the community. These representatives/staff members would then vote on stuff and things amongst themselves.

I have turned this into politics and I now hate myself.

Well, getting staff and community to collaborate on things is politics, this is true. But it's a productive idea.

Hold on a sec..

I just read this entire thread and, though I'm a bit of an outlier here (dicsussing and discovering the potentials of LD'ing is far more important to me than belonging to a club, or community), I think I've been around long enough to say one thing:

This is not our site.

It belongs to someone else, who can do with it whatever the hell they want. If they choose to set up rules we don't like, or value a constant flow of new faces over a constant pool of a few familiar faces, isn't that choice their prerogative? I think it is. Democracy is a nice thing, but is it really our place to manage these forums? Also, I think DV's real value lies in the LD'ing forums and their content, and not in the -- s'cuse me -- often mindless crap that appears in the non-dreaming forum. That crap can be fun, sure, but it rarely polishes the sheen of DreamViews.

I could be wrong (hell, I probably am wrong, given my inability to even fathom the need for those extra forums, or a "community" at all), but it seems that Dreamviews is about as good as it ever was in the years I've been posting here (and the years of lurking before that); indeed, in terms of providing LD'ing content and discussion it is still the best and most diverse site like this by far.

I say leave these guys be. If they choose to let their site devolve, that's their problem, not ours.

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

http://www.dreamviews.com/meta-forum...st-locked.html

Why was the thread deleted?

Don't worry guys! I brought sexy back
With me when i returned!

Im fully ready to take on my
Responsibilities of 'Unofficial
Global Moderator' again.


The forum is a business. It is owned
And ran as such. With employees:
The staff. And consumers: the members.

Its the staffs best interest to run the
Business to provide quality services
And products to the consumers. They
Do this by watching and listening to them
If there is a consumer that is bad for
Business. Then they will no longer do
Business with them. The opposite for
Good consumers. the staff can not
Give what the business doesn't offer.
No matter how much the consumer
Wants an apple he wont get it from a
Orange vendor.


As for being dead. When i left six
years ago we had probably 15000
members. Now its 4 times that!

Alot of what has been ask has
been answered. newbies fear asking
Because they dont want to be the
Millionth person to ask a question
Just to be told to use the search. Or
They got their answers by searching.
I say with a community this large
Encourage the same questions to see
Different answers.

From past experiences theres no way to
Guarantee a topic is going to be hit. They
All eventually die too but some come back
Reincarnated even.

This forum is different than others.
It's based On an activity that for the
most part is singular. The thing that
connects us is only what we care to
share on the topic. And its what makes
Or breaks us.