Thread: Exciting new EILD device: Oneirics!

Well if you ever get something going I'd love to check it out. Unfortunately, I'm pretty dependent on my coworker to get ours up and running (I'm more of the UI/UX guy, he's the programmer). But he's already designed one piece of LD software for me, so I think he'll come through. Speaking of which, I need to create some mockups this weekend to keep the momentum going...I hate when projects fizzle out.

According to their kick starter the mask works by tracking eye movements, and breathing. I'm not sure from the pictures they have on the net, how it could possibly read eye movement, they claim " four ultrasensitive tracking sensors." What they actually are is never really stated, in the worst case scenario just a standard array of Gyro sensors like a cellphone, and they are claiming that as reading eye movement. As long as it's not the worst case scenario, they sound to have cool tec here, but they got to break down just what it is they have in the mask that records the eye movement, (what kind of sensor, not just that it's ultrasensitive) and what then deciphers it? A CPU of some sort? I'm always weary of the instant lucid products. Especially after Iwinks. In the best case scenario If they are using infrared optical sensors like an shrunk down dual-Purkinje eye tracker, then there is massive potential for accuracy. And I will be very interested.

Originally Posted by pointofbeing

I'm always weary of the instant lucid products. Especially after Iwinks.

What happened with iWinks?

I believe Oneirics uses infrared sensors for eye tracking and accelerometers for head movement detection.

The problem(s) with iWinks are: 1) the inventors have unbelievably poor KS communication (very sparse updates, and almost no quick comment updates, ever), 2) the product was designed and implemented and then redesigned (at least once), after the kickstarter campaign.

Oneirics was basically ready for production (hardware-wise) at the beginning of the kickstarter campaign, it had already been in steady development for 3 years prior to the KS.

So iWinks used the KS for funding both initial development and ramping to production.

Yeah communication is pretty poor, but I for one think the redesign was worth the extra time it took. IMO, waiting a few extra months for a superior product is better than suffering an inferior product forever more.

The "perfection treadmill" results in vaporware. Just look at ND2. YEARS and no sign of it even being close. The lucidity institute keeps putting off even an *update* of the status, and ND2 was supposed to have beta'd in March 2014 at LaBerge's retreat. I've worked a career in the technology industry and seen time and time again this pitfall ruining otherwise awesome companies. They key to success is to "ship early and often." Get something workable, ship it, and immediately work on the successor. No product is *ever* perfect or even ideal. Look at iPhone for instance, the perfect example of ship now and iterate. If Apple had waited until now to release iPhone1 with all the features of iPhone6, they would have missed the window and lost tremendous amounts of revenue (and people would not have had their awesome phones for years).

Ship now, *then* improve.

Of course, the trap with products that provide a subjective experience like lucid dreaming masks is that they may not work *at all* and the company never gets the chance to iterate. That may indeed be their fear. So in one sense I do commend them in their dedication to quality, since they've got their money and so I think the delays come from a real dedication to the product.

However, they need to learn to give better status updates, at least quick comments.

If I were to place my bets, would you say go with Aurora or wait for the market to develop?

Yes I think Aurora will ship, hopefully by mid-summer. Hope it works! Ah, really wishing the Oneirics made it, the combination of vibration, lights, and sound is probably the idea notification. We'll see!

"What happened with iWinks?"

They had to redesign the whole thing because the ground electrode, did not work as it was originally placed. Would have been very inaccurate if they released it as it was.

Infrared eye tracking on Oneirics should be much more accurate, as a sign to a computer ai about your current rem status. As long as it's not completely void of decent lenses, or has issues thinking every eye movement is rem. It looks like it would be uncombable to where to me tho, as it's basically a camera and a cellphone attached to your head.

This survey link has been on their facebook page for a few weeks now

Beta tester survey
After some delay with the updates, we are launching the survey in order to choose the Oneirics beta-testers.
If while answering these questions you feel you might not be fit to become a beta-tester, do not worry: in the next updates we will propose other ways to become a beta-tester.
We feel that all of you are part of Oneirics, we appreciate your support and we want to reward you for it.
In the next updates we will explain different ways to support us, and the winners will become beta-testers too.
You can visit the following link to access the survey:
http://survey.oneirics.com/

hopefully this thing will reach the market within a year, but looking at the bulk of their mask I think I might be time to get out a 3D printer and print our own

Originally Posted by TheUncanny

What happened with iWinks?

My two cents:

(1) The design keeps changing as FryingMan, et al have pointed out.
(2) The shipping date keeps getting pushed back, etc. also noted by Frying Man previously.
(3) Also the 'original' Kickstarter promo page main campaign slogan keeps being changed after the original date after the funding success with all backers on board and money raised.

The pitch has gone from a plausable one to a downright misleading claim which is yet to be proved.

Eg: Jan 21st 2014 (Funded date)
Aurora: The Dream-Enhancing Headband
by iWinks LLC

*Prohibited Link Removed*

April 2nd 2015 - The Aurora: Dream Augmenting Headband
(The Aurora headband plays lights and sounds for lucid dreaming with a smart alarm clock to help you sleep better.)

*Prohibited Link Removed*

June 16th 2015 - Aurora: The Ultimate Lucid Dreaming Tool
(Aurora is the world's most powerful sleep sensing device for dream augmentation.)

*Prohibited Link Removed*

In my eyes Kickstarter should not allow the original page header to be changed in this way after funding is secured. The original backers and anybody landing on the page now are having their hopes and expectations raised in a somewhat misleading way.


Re: Oneirics

Originally Posted by cooleymd

Hopefully this thing will reach the market within a year, but looking at the bulk of their mask I think I might be time to get out a 3D printer and print our own.

I wouldn't bank on it personally.

BTW maybe anybody who is interested in filling out the Oneirics survey can also ask what proof and crudentials 'Tony' (aka Antonio Moreno Frias) has in regards to sleep and brain research.

He claims an impressive 15 years.

*Prohibited Link Removed*

Try 'Google.'
(3D modelling -Yes. Dream-related forum? Sleep research? )


P.S. I have a dream journal and I lucid dream regularly - so I guess I'm a sleep/brain researcher!

^^ Seems to be some confusion between Aurora/iWinks and Oneirics. Say what you will about Oneirics, but at least there were several years of prototype designs done *before* asking for funding for production on kickstarter, as opposed to iWinks which apparently funded their entire design including prototypes.

Why take Oneirics to task on sleep research, etc? The relevant research has been done already: lucid dreaming masks are now all about engineering and production, not about sleep research.

And yes the Oneirics mask look large from the modeling pictures but it's really quite small if you look at the physical pictures.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

And yes the Oneirics mask look large from the modeling pictures but it's really quite small if you look at the physical pictures.

In an age of flexible circuit boards and custom plastic printers all of the masks in development just seem a bit stone aged

flex.jpg

I hope after Lucidity experiences some market expansion a real corporation comes along and makes a totally light weight and flexible device using modern plastics etc

Originally Posted by FryingMan

^^ Seems to be some confusion between Aurora/iWinks and Oneirics.

Nope. They are all misleading in one way or another.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Why take Oneirics to task on sleep research, etc? The relevant research has been done already: lucid dreaming masks are now all about engineering and production, not about sleep research.

Agreed. But by notable people such as Ceilia Green, Keith Hearne, Stephen LaBerge, etc. Why claim to have 15 years experience?

Originally Posted by FryingMan

...lucid dreaming masks are now all about engineering and production, not about sleep research.

Beta testing? End user input?
More like these guys are in to make a quick buck after seeing Inception.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Say what you will about Oneirics, but at least there were several years of prototype designs done *before* asking for funding for production on kickstarter, as opposed to iWinks which apparently funded their entire design including prototypes.

Source?

You can check the Oneirics KS page, there are photo histories of the early designs.

You can double guess all you want. I get a solid impression of the Oneirics project, and I believe Tony is genuine. But I'll reserve all final judgement until the working devices are in front of me.

Tony is a genuine LD enthusiast who's spent years working on this. I have no problems at all with people who want to try to build a business from their interests.

It's the luciding group that really galls me: outrageous claims, and a "service model" plan.

^^ Obviously I have to respect your opinion in regard to Oneirics even though I beg to differ. I go on gut instinct initially, then I research rather than guess.

However I'm 100% with you with the latter. I did raise my fears and concerns (publicly) about that one last year.

Hello everyone! I read this thread and found that Oneirics kickstarter campaign failed to get enough funds to produce it's LD device, but looks like it's making a come back. I watched the YouTube vids and it look's promising. In all honesty I cant say if eeg sensing masks work because Iv'e never tried one, but I have invested the money in The Aurora Dream Band. As mentioned before this isn't even a mask it sits on your forehead and it has eeg sensors as well as rapid eye movement sensors ( like Laberge's design ) as well as the ones used commonly on smart phones. Beta testing has begun, and they are in the final stages of production. I have been in contact with Danny Schoonover, and I must say his credentials are good. He worked with neurosky before starting this venture. Most people thought it was a scam, I do not believe it is, and until proven otherwise I think it's the best bet out there for helping lucid dreamers achieve lucidity. I was chosen for early testing and I will keep you all posted on my progress once I get it. Thank you for listening!

Personally with all the hype and expectations I think there will be major challenges with the Aurora, delays aside. I mean for starters they have changed the case design 2-3 times. Even now the new iwinks(org) website layout next to the latest design pictures states a disclaimer 'design subject to change,' plus the new owl logo looks suspiciously like the mascot used by luciding. (An owl BTW.)

I found it a bit odd when iwinks (in KS Update #33) claimed that the test enclosures had warped in the heat during transit?
Did the courier go via Death Valley perhaps?

They even had the cheek to pass the 3 terminal ZEO snap on headband idea off like it is their own.

[rant] End of rant. [/rant]

Maybe you could create a new thread devoted to your tests as a lot of people would be interested. In failing that there are a couple or so threads devoted to the Aurora in this category.

Thank you Highlander for your response. Yes I agree that there is a lot of hype expectations going on with the Aurora, and yes your rants are acceptable indeed! They may have ripped of some of the technology from neurosky and ZEO, but I think the mascot looks cool... :-) They also have had a lot of design changes and complications with their device, but it's almost in mass production. I'm in! Any way I do have a question. If I'm just a lurker here can I even start a thread?

I guess the iwinks team mean well in fairness. My gripe is the way these devices are marketed with the glossy surreal utube imagery storylines, like you will be a pro without any real effort. Inception or deception?

Regarding posts: I think so. I don't think you are restricted as long as the thread is in the relevant subject area.

BTW good luck with the tests. I look forward to reading them.

Oneirics is continuing its progress towards beta testing devices. My big problem with Aurora/iwinks is that it does not sit on the eyes. I sleep in a very light environment most of the time and I need to cover my eyes with a mask or a shirt or something, so this may be a show stopper.

The delays with Aurora show how hard it is to bring a consumer device to market. My beef with them is that they were not upfront about their actual stage of progress before their KS. Oneirics already had enclosure molds finished *before* their KS campaign, with several years of design and iterations already completed. It seems like Aurora only had very early plans before launching their campaign, in essence funding not just production, but development as well. Their communication track record is poor as well.

Posting here as the Aurora sounds fascinating but would like to read a few reviews before I purchase.
In the meantime does anyone have any links to any of these light bands that have been mentioned in this topic for me to try?

Posting links to products that are for sale is not allowed. Google the aurora lucid dreaming head band to see what its all about.