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    Thread: Galantamine + Choline

    1. #51
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      It's nice to see that there is finaly an increasing interest in Yuschaks techniques, which seem to be the most promising at the moment.

      I'll just let you know that you can ask him specific or more complex questions in his own forum at http://www.advancedld.com/Question_Answer_Board.html.

      The Galantamine can wait untill I figured out about it's legal status and OTC-availability.
      Galantamine seems to be the most important substance at all, so it would be not so wise to skip it. Choline can only serve as a starting point and helps the Galantamine to do its job.

      Regards,

      DS
      Last edited by DreamScience; 07-16-2007 at 06:59 PM.

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      So I've been going through the stages of acceptance for Galantamine one by one (denial: I don't need that to make me lucid; rage: It's not fair! I should be able to get them naturally!; confusion: I don't know what to think any more; acceptance: let's give it a shot) like I do with all oneirogenic drugs or supplements I eventually end up taking. What I'm most worried about is the possibility for desensitization of the Ach system with the use of these supplements - I haven't specifically read this anywhere (except maybe in Moonbeam's post) but I can't quite envision all the different effect and synergies between all of these different substances, which leaves room for doubt in my mind... and I won't take a substance if I doubt its safety and efficacy, at least not anymore. Some questions:

      Galantamine is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor that also appears to activate nicotinic acetylcholine receptors on its own. What is special about activation of the nicotinic ACh receptors, exactly? What, qualitatively, does galantamine do to them above and beyond what the increased amount of ACh will do to them, and why is that so important?

      Quote Originally Posted by Moonbeam
      Hope I haven't decreased my ach receptors too much.
      This is in reference to nicotine (which obviously stimulates nAChR). Wikipedia seems to say (in a reference to nicotine's use for lucid dreaming, no less) that chronic use of nicotine will desensitize nAChRs, but I think I've read a study about Galantamine finding just the opposite - that Galantamine increases the density of those receptors - so what's the difference between the two that makes chronic administration of Galantamine, if not a net benefit, at least safe for acetylcholine receptor sensitivity?

      Piracetam also seems to be related to increasing AChR receptor density and sensitivity, but by Wikipedia's watch apparently works on sensitizing the muscarinic receptors, rather than nicotinic. As far as I understand it, you take piracetam directly after a lucid dream to help flush out extra ACh which is good for LDing but not so good for normal everyday function, right?
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    3. #53
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      I tried to get galantamine, but apparantly in America it is perscription only... I did get a B-complex which has 100 mg of choline in it, though.
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    4. #54
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      Ah, and here is some information on galantamine... http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...r/a699058.html
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      I tried to get galantamine, but apparantly in America it is perscription only
      By America, you mean USA, or other parts of the continent? Because it is available in the US w/o perscription. Where do you think most of us got it? I can send you link to websites that sell it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado Joe View Post
      By America, you mean USA, or other parts of the continent? Because it is available in the US w/o perscription. Where do you think most of us got it? I can send you link to websites that sell it.
      I meant US, sorry for the confusion. But where can you get it w/o perscription here in the USA? Is it only off the web? And any links you have would be helpful, thanks.
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      Well it's easier to find online, I suppose. But it is currently over-the-counter. It's just not used for any common ailments so there's really no market for it in stores.

      Might have to do some asking around - but it's likely you'll have to go to somekind of specialty place or nutrition center (kind of like a GNC) and ask for "memory enhancers". Galantamine is used mostly for that so you might find it in one of those products.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado Joe View Post
      Well it's easier to find online, I suppose. But it is currently over-the-counter. It's just not used for any common ailments so there's really no market for it in stores.

      Might have to do some asking around - but it's likely you'll have to go to somekind of specialty place or nutrition center (kind of like a GNC) and ask for "memory enhancers". Galantamine is used mostly for that so you might find it in one of those products.
      It is OTC? Ok. Because I went to the pharmacy at Wegmans, and they said you can find it only as a perscription...
      Thanks!

      -Alex
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      Ah, maybe galantamine by itself -like if you wanted higher dosages. But the stuff I buy comes with B5 and choline as well - not pure galantamine.

      A heads up to everyone in here regarding the galantamine used for LDing:
      we need to kind of keep this whole thing from getting too popular - the more companies that start making these "Lucid Dreaming" pills and making a profit, the more the FDA will start looking into linning their own pockets with the profits and make galantamine unavailable. Just something to keep in mind.
      Last edited by Tornado Joe; 07-16-2007 at 10:30 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Spamtek View Post
      What I'm most worried about is the possibility for desensitization of the Ach system with the use of these supplements - I haven't specifically read this anywhere (except maybe in Moonbeam's post)
      I got that from Yushak's book; the chapter on galantamine says:
      "Notice that galantamine remains in your system for about 48 hours. This means that your acetylcholine levels are boosted well beyond the time you set aside for lucid dreaming. This can lead to tolerance and desensitization issues."

      Quote Originally Posted by Spamtek View Post
      As far as I understand it, you take piracetam directly after a lucid dream to help flush out extra ACh which is good for LDing but not so good for normal everyday function, right?
      The book says: "Piracetam reduces desensitization of the ach receptors"; it doesn't really say how it does that (later in the book he says that it doesn't break ach down, it uses it form memories); and it goes on to say: "Piracetam is thought to cause ach to be used up more efficiently and may even increase ach receptor density."

      I haven't validated any of these statements with any other sources, so this is all from Yushak.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado Joe View Post
      Ah, maybe galantamine by itself -like if you wanted higher dosages. But the stuff I buy comes with B5 and choline as well - not pure galantamine.


      A heads up to everyone in here regarding the galantamine used for LDing:
      we need to kind of keep this whole thing from getting too popular - the more companies that start making these "Lucid Dreaming" pills and making a profit, the more the FDA will start looking into linning their own pockets with the profits and make galantamine unavailable. Just something to keep in mind.
      Oh, what is the stuff you buy called? The mixture of the three things?

      -Alex
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      "Of course it is happening in your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"- Albus Dumbledore.

    12. #62
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      It's a supplement called "GalantaMind" - available at iherb.com. There's other products out there with the same blend of ingredients, just different names. Some are even labeled "Lucid Dream Pill".

      Quote Originally Posted by MBeam
      Notice that galantamine remains in your system for about 48 hours.
      Maybe, but after what dosage? I mean, I notice that if I take 4mg one night, I get lucid that night but not the following night if I don't take it again. There has to be a dosage associated with the statement. Or at least the LEVEL or percentage of galantamine of what you take that remains in your system. Is that in the book?
      Last edited by Tornado Joe; 07-17-2007 at 02:16 AM.

    13. #63
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado Joe View Post
      Maybe, but after what dosage? I mean, I notice that if I take 4mg one night, I get lucid that night but not the following night if I don't take it again. There has to be a dosage associated with the statement. Or at least the LEVEL or percentage of galantamine of what you take that remains in your system. Is that in the book?
      Pharmacokinetics for galantamine: peak plasma time is 1 hour, and elimination half-life is 7 hours. He says he usually uses 8 mg.

      I got my alpha-GPC and Piracetam today.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado Joe View Post
      Ah, maybe galantamine by itself -like if you wanted higher dosages. But the stuff I buy comes with B5 and choline as well - not pure galantamine.
      I got pure 4mg galantamine capsules from a US located online shop without a problem.
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    15. #65
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      Quote Originally Posted by Spamtek View Post
      So I've been going through the stages of acceptance for Galantamine one by one (denial: I don't need that to make me lucid; rage: It's not fair! I should be able to get them naturally!; confusion: I don't know what to think any more; acceptance: let's give it a shot) like I do with all oneirogenic drugs or supplements I eventually end up taking. What I'm most worried about is the possibility for desensitization of the Ach system with the use of these supplements - I haven't specifically read this anywhere (except maybe in Moonbeam's post) but I can't quite envision all the different effect and synergies between all of these different substances, which leaves room for doubt in my mind... and I won't take a substance if I doubt its safety and efficacy, at least not anymore. Some questions:

      Galantamine is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor that also appears to activate nicotinic acetylcholine receptors on its own. What is special about activation of the nicotinic ACh receptors, exactly? What, qualitatively, does galantamine do to them above and beyond what the increased amount of ACh will do to them, and why is that so important?

      This is in reference to nicotine (which obviously stimulates nAChR). Wikipedia seems to say (in a reference to nicotine's use for lucid dreaming, no less) that chronic use of nicotine will desensitize nAChRs, but I think I've read a study about Galantamine finding just the opposite - that Galantamine increases the density of those receptors - so what's the difference between the two that makes chronic administration of Galantamine, if not a net benefit, at least safe for acetylcholine receptor sensitivity?

      Piracetam also seems to be related to increasing AChR receptor density and sensitivity, but by Wikipedia's watch apparently works on sensitizing the muscarinic receptors, rather than nicotinic. As far as I understand it, you take piracetam directly after a lucid dream to help flush out extra ACh which is good for LDing but not so good for normal everyday function, right?
      According to the book, you can get desensitization and tolerance if you take too much Galantamine. To avoid that Yushak recommends taking Galantamine every other day ( at max ), and not everyday. As was said, he also recommends taking Peracetam right after you wake up from the dream, and also to occasionally take a few days off Galantamine completely.
      I found that the Peracetam helps reduce the side effects of Galantamine. I seem to be quite sensitive to it, even thought I just take 4mg, and Peracetam does seem to help reduce the side effects.
      but if I remember correctly, Yushak doesn't talk about that use of Peracetam in the book ( the reduction of side effects ). For him Galantamine produced very little side effects, so I guess he didn't need it.
      As for your question about the nicotinic receptors, I don't remember now, I will look up later what the book says about it.
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    16. #66
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      I had another amazing night. This stuff is unbelievable.

      Here's what happened: I went to sleep about 10:30, woke up at 1:30, and took the alpha-GPC. Then I went back to sleep and had a lucid dream. It started out as a low-level lucid, but at some point I become much more aware. I had been enjoying myself with a DC, but I left to do a task that I have been trying to do for a while. I didn't completely succeed--I got scared and woke up, about 2:30.

      At 2:30, I took the GalantaMind. I was little worked up by the previous dream, and it took a few minutes to settle down. Then I tried to WILD, but I went quickly into a lucid dream without any of the stages of WILD. Then I had the longest series of false awakenings and scene shifts I have ever had; all the while remaining (or regaining) a high level of lucidity. I remember thinking at one point that I didn't even really know what lucid dreaming was until now, it was so incredible. It was so intense, it was scary. I accomplishd my tasks after what seemd an extremely long time with a lot of effort. I woke up about 4:30, again totally clear-headed and feeling fine. Then I took the piracetam.

      The only side-effects I had were some calf-muscle fasiculations after the alpha-GPC, and a little gastrointestinal change that I'll spare you the details of. It was not anything bad--let's just say it got things moving early in the morning.

      I think I could probably have started out with a lower dose; I really didn't expect such incredibly dramatic effects. It isn't like nicotine, which causes crazy dreams and you may become lucid--it is like instant long lucidity.

      Thanks dodobird! for starting this thread--I think I finally found what I've been looking for.

      (Spamtek--at one point I ate a pizza, just because I remembered I should do that; it tasted really good, but it was a strange, stretchy texture. Then I had an FA, and I was worried for a second that I had eaten some object around me in my sleep. I looked around and saw a gnawed on phone-book; but then I became lucid again because I realized I don't have a phone book by my bed. One of my eight or so FA's.)

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      So you guys haven't heard of www.dreamsupplement.com ?
      It offers these chemicals and B vitamins plus something else, all packed into one pill. I myself have never tried them, but I'll probably order some soon.

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      The thing at luciddreampill.com has galantamine, b5, choline, and melatonin in it... So it seems that it might work...
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      Quote Originally Posted by LucidAlex View Post
      The thing at luciddreampill.com has galantamine, b5, choline, and melatonin in it... So it seems that it might work...
      Yushak was asked about these in his forum, and he said that he wouldn't recommend to take melatonin at the same time as the other supplements, because it can reduce the effect.
      I guess the melatonin helps to fall a sleep, and it was put in this brilliantdreams pill because it is aimed also at people who never even heard about LD, and don't know about WBTB, and WILD.

      Anyway the question is, can we trust this hyped brilliantdreams site? I don't know if we can trust the quality of their products.
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      Hey MBeam, you taking the 4mg or 8mg GalantaMind? I've been playing around with the idea of taking two of my 4mg for a while, just a bit hesitant to do so. However, if it'll give me a nice crazy night like you experienced... (minus the shits, of course :p )

      Question about the Peracetam: Is it to be used as a substitute to Galantamine, or to "flush out" the extra ACh? It would seem both, considering how Beamie got her first LD of that night.

      Anyway the question is, can we trust this hyped brilliantdreams site? I don't know if we can trust the quality of their products.
      Well, I'm a very "do-it-yourself" kind of person, so I'd much rather get all the ingredients separately and combine them myself if I could. Then there's the question as to whether what's on the bottle is really what's in the pill. Unfortunately, some things are hard to obtain individually.
      Last edited by Tornado Joe; 07-18-2007 at 02:47 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado Joe View Post
      Hey MBeam, you taking the 4mg or 8mg GalantaMind? I've been playing around with the idea of taking two of my 4mg for a while, just a bit hesitant to do so. However, if it'll give me a nice crazy night like you experienced... (minus the shits, of course :p )

      Question about the Peracetam: Is it to be used as a substitute to Galantamine, or to "flush out" the extra ACh? It would seem both, considering how Beamie got her first LD of that night.


      Well, I'm a very "do-it-yourself" kind of person, so I'd much rather get all the ingredients separately and combine them myself if I could. Unfortunately, some things are hard to obtain individually. Then there's the question as to whether what's on the bottle is really what's in the pill.
      no MB took the peracetam only after the last LD, to flush out the extra ACh.
      peracetam is not supposed to help with dreaming, because it supposed to repress dreams.
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    22. #72
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      no MB took the peracetam only after the last LD, to flush out the extra ACh.
      But it sounds like it was the first thing she took:
      Here's what happened: I went to sleep about 10:30, woke up at 1:30, and took the alpha-GPC. Then I went back to sleep and had a lucid dream.
      It would sort of make sense if she took it first, since she quoted reading that "Piracetam is thought to cause ach to be used up more efficiently and may even increase ach receptor density."

      Maybe it used up whatever ACh she had at the onset of sleep - then taking the Galantamine later on "re-stocked" her supply. Or are Alpha-GPC and Peracetam two totally different things (as far as function)?
      Last edited by Tornado Joe; 07-18-2007 at 03:03 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado Joe
      Or are Alpha-GPC and Peracetam two totally different things?
      Yeah man, Alpha-GPC is supposed to be one of the more effective cholinergic supplements out there. I'm not certain about all differences, but alpha-GPC is quick to cross the blood-brain barrier unlike a lot of other supplements. I'm a little unclear on this too, because that makes it sound as if Alpha-GPC itself should raise the Ach supply in the brain and lead to more lucids by itself, unlike other cholinergics that stay in the blood like lecithin. Maybe that's why she had that first minor lucid after taking the GPC... anyways, I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the different sorts of cholinergics and which are best/worst in different situations.

      MB: Honestly, I find most pizzas so unbelievably disgusting that a phonebook is probably a fairly accurate taste analogy for them. Way to draw the association!
      Last edited by Spamtek; 07-18-2007 at 03:23 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado Joe View Post
      But it sounds like it was the first thing she took:


      It would sort of make sense if she took it first, since she quoted reading that "Piracetam is thought to cause ach to be used up more efficiently and may even increase ach receptor density."

      Maybe it used up whatever ACh she had at the onset of sleep - then taking the Galantamine later on "re-stocked" her supply. Or are Alpha-GPC and Peracetam two totally different things (as far as function)?
      yes Alpha-GPC and Peracetam are comepletly different.
      Alpha-GPC is used as a delayed ACh booster
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      T Joe, I'm taking the 8mg dose. I think I could have started with the 4, but oh well; can't complain. And the GI reaction wasn't bad at at all; just speeded things up a little.

      The first night I just took the Galantamind, which worked well for a WILD. The second time I took the alpha-GPC and the Galantamind, with the Piracetam the next morning. Piracetam is suposed to conteract the desensitization when using cholinergic substances, if taken afterwards. Luckily it is a "smart drug", without major side effects. It inhibits lucid dreaming if used at the wrong time. Yushack says to take it as soon as you are done lucid dreaming.

      The alpha-GPC caused a DILD on its own. Then when I took the GalantaMind on top of it a couple hours later I had the longest, trippiest LD's ever.

      I love these drugs that cause lucid dreams, and have side effects of making you get smarter, lose weight, and increase regularity. This is too good, I must be missing something here. I think we should buy stock.

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