Thread: How close are you to an Übermensch? -take the test!

Just because demon is used there does not prove that it was the same for the quote. I still have the right to assume it could have meant a mischievous being. Especially since the quote is played out like a scenario or story. If you choose to give zero meaning to the character in the quote that's your decision. But in English every real word has a meaning.

Originally Posted by DawnEye11

It's what is given that helps me to understand it's meaning.

That is an absolutely terrible position to choose. Context can make a world of a difference, if you fail to see that then yes it is better that we drop the argument.

How is that a terrible position? I understand that quotes can be interpreted differently and I took into consideration the context but with what you guys are giving me is not good enough for me to change my position. I'm not quick to disagree without considering other important factors or view points. Gosh...If you thought that was the only way I dissect a quote you are mistaken. In other words, what I was trying to get at was that if the demon had zero meaning it should have not been put in the quote. How can you give beauty to something with a word that has zero meaning? That only leads to misunderstandings and stumbles the readers with the given scenario. That is why I call it flawed and I said I don't care if he is atheist or not because he could have been neutral in the matter.

Ah - I've been editing some things into my last post, wondering why there is silence, without seeing this page.
Of course it's fitting to call it a demon, it is mischievous to tell you so, it's assumed that most people will come to feel dread about this revelation of truth, so it's quite fitting.
I just felt, it's going against the meaning of it to hang yourself up on this good/bad dichotomy concerning the demon too much, and what he might intend.
Seems to me, he intends nothing specifically and also doesn't have a choice, for how the reality looks like, he's just telling you. Well, maybe he'd like it to see you suffer, if you do so, and complain if you call it a god - but do we know? I don't think so, don't think it's relevant. I feel it's function as enabler for the thought-experiment is more important here, than questioning his motives.

I reread your post and dutchraptor's reply. I understand now that the life will just continue the same as before. I just didn't see it cause I was thinking too much and it was starting to annoy me (Thinking headache) but the way he puts the options and scenario still bugs me. I just give up on this quote completely. Thanks for taking the time to reply though. This thought experiment isn't fit for me. : P

Originally Posted by StephL

Ah - but Nietzsche is the one who proclaimed "God is dead!". He's been totally anti-religion/supernaturalism/etc.
I understand differently than the both of you, DawnEye and ViIe, but that's also the beauty of Nietzsche. While going after secondary sources on him and his concepts, it's been astounding in how many different ways people choose to interpret him. So I want to make it clear, that I by no means want to claim to have the "correct" perspective.

I am fairly certain Nietzsche is an atheist and I still think we're on the same page toward the latter. The conclusion I came to when reading HeWhoShapes post was also the same empowering and being content with your life. However, the thread intention is what I am trying to understand correctly. I presented another perspective this can be perceived as and I am trying to confirm this is not what he or others who agree meant when comprehending Nietzsche message. I just want to make sure HeWhoShapes interpret in people being empowered and content with their lives because of themselves and not anyone else interference. The original poster never explained exactly why this makes you the higher man in his opinion and this is why I am curious to know how he interpret this concept. I'm not sure if he thought if he put his opinion about it, it would somewhat ruin the thought experiment. But I am sure it wont always be comprehended in the same way.

Originally Posted by StephL

I said, Nietzsche would have proclaimed the death of god, and that's not entirely correct. It was famous Zarathustra of his novel proclaiming thus, while I would stick my neck out and claim, Nietzsche was well aware that there never was a god, and probably said so as well.
This conundrum of differentiating between him lying words into the mouths of characters within a novel, and his very own voice, as used in the purely philosophical texts, seems a source of misunderstanding, too.
My conclusion from coming across so many different viewpoints, was to finally "do the clever thing" - I went for my own. Viewpoint, that is - I started to read "Thus Spake Zarathustra", and I have to say, I'm absolutely delighted. I really see it as poetry and not gospel, mind you. N was abhorred by things like "gospel", "dogma" etc. It's difficult to gauge for me, how it might come across to English natives, but in the German version it sears into my heart and mind, if you excuse my language, and in English it feels farther removed.

It is a story, and while of course Z expresses much of what N thought, it's a figure anyway, with it's own characteristics, it's not N = Z.
I just started, and feel like quoting extensively - but I don't expect widespread enthusiasm, which is fine with me.
But if you check out the second part below, it should be obvious how easy it is to "get" or "extract" the wrong message, or a message from the wrong speaker, when flying over this book. And he's glorified dreams in a side-comment of that part, so I thought I'd have excuse for quoting like a madwoman...
.

Perhaps you may be correct on how it is easier to understand Nietzsche and Zarathusta message in the German language than it is in English. Translations most often remove a person form of characteristics on their form of writing in to a more clear and yet misguided statement. Combine that with poetry with a concept like this and I am sure it can pave way toward confusion. I think this has been confirm since you have also pick up on this from reading the same phrases in different languages.

Fair enough, DawnEye! He's certainly not an easy read, didn't intend to be.

Originally Posted by ViIe

The original poster never explained exactly why this makes you the higher man in his opinion and this is why I am curious to know how he interpret this concept. I'm not sure if he thought if he put his opinion about it, it would somewhat ruin the thought experiment. But I am sure it wont always be comprehended in the same way.

Poor HeWhoShapes probably thinks, oh my goodness, what have I got to read all here?
I think, Nietzsche himself will have probably phrased it such, after what I got from secondary sources, but it'd be nice to have the original context, in which HWS found it. I really think, HWS rather meant to put the whole ÜM thing up for scrutiny, which is not doable from this one passage alone.
Heck - I'm quite far from a grasp on it, let alone a firm one, even after some rather extensive internet-bothering. As said, there are multiple ways, secondary sources interpret it.
From allusions to Darwinism and eugenics, which N. did actively deny it was about (citation bookmarked - I'll search on request), up to asking with a yes in mind, if the ÜM might be useful as a role-model for modern times as well, and seeing it as a matter of growth of the spirit, in which direction I see it go as well. Well - up to now I choose to do so, but with no sound footing (yet). Just at the side, N. also spoke out against Nationalism, didn't know that; same thing, I bookmarked that yesterday. His focus clearly lies on the individual, and freeing yourself from imposed norms and rules and convention - especially from religious morals, other topic.
But beware of reading introductions from his sister, as mentioned in my first post, she's been doing him a grave disservice, after he came down with the end stages of neural Syphilis, unfortunately, and after his death. Like cherry-picking little passages and sending them to the Führer, who's been delightable by them, unsurprisingly. Most of it has been purged, but I found a Zarathustra with such an intro in English, and it was at the very least not a good read.

I've put the Zarathustra down last night, when I was too tired to follow, and it didn't jump as directly into my perception like chapter one and two any more. He wrote it directly after Gay Science, and it's said to be the main source for the ÜM concept.
Lets see, what HWS's got to say himself, when he does. He's probably surprised by the walls of text, and maybe by the seriousness and value, dutchraptor and probably Darkmatters and I myself see in this particular thought-experiment.

Btw. - it's been widely criticised, to translate ÜM into "superman", that's not it, it's rather "over-man" or "beyond-man", but it's best to leave it as it is, not to adulterate it in translation.

about boredom:
"i can understand that 2 people borded will make the bordom double. that's what happens in marriage... people think with 2 life will be double interesting! ...it is the stealing that makes them sweat.
but in stolen there is sweetness...
but when tou are 24 hours together... your mask begin sleeping!
...but aloneness is boredom. because there is no entertainment!

Originally Posted by StephL

@DawnEye - if the person would in his next cycle remember the demon, then it wouldn't be the exact same life anymore, since now there would be this memory. ... it's really just a hypothetical scenario which goes on forever and ever in the same rails, including the demon appearing to unsuspecting you.
But that's all besides the point, which I tried to make with my initial posts.

OK this is the paradox - based on our [=all earth's dwellers\sons and daughters] continious amanesia.
you' like everyone else' take leaving with no past life memories as the natural state of being - and it's not.

it is indeen such "damons", so so speak, that deprived us of all our past life memories. and given enough time, unless someones stop them, they will get us stuck in an eternal loop - re-living the same things to no end and no goal - not OUR goal, that is - just to serve "the demons'" goals - be it feeding on our energy, or fears, or flesh, or be it serving with best use of talents. or... be serving as sex slaves.
those horrors are on our threshold by now. unless prevented, we're doomed.
The Ultimate ultimatum in Negotiation Forum
(read from #1, if the link does not redirect correctly).

Well i have alot to reply to and i'm not very good at writing long posts ...


I guess I should remind you guys that unlike many phloisophers freddie's philosophy is much more gradniose and romantic and not so much as rational as people like russel or wittgenstein, so it's hard to say there is a "true" version of what the ubermench or any of his concepts.

Also never got my hands on the gay science but i sure hope to read "thus spoke zarathustra " soon.

with that in mind...


I pretty much agree with steph that the whole point on the experiment is just to see whether you are content with your life, according to Nietzsche the ubermensch must affirm this life which ties with his despise for plato and christianity on what he percives is their attempt to escape the world and it's suffering(to the metaphsyical realm and heaven respectively).

Originally Posted by StephL

Ah - HeWhoShapes - did you see me cite this here

Actually no, learned about it here: Introduction to Nietzsche - YouTube (very good channel btw).

Originally Posted by StephL

First off - and I don't want to spend hours on demonstrating it, well, depends on who asks how - but it's not Nietzsche's fault, that the Nazis found a liking to some of his concepts. While his lifetime, there were no Nazis yet of course. After his death, his sister and her husband, a Nazi, manipulated some of his work, and if I remember correctly, this could be identified and nullified. What is in my memory, is that he was not antisemitic at all, but Wagner was, by the way. I believe to have read a quote of Nietzsche's, where he actually condemns anti-Semitism. As said, if you wanted to roll that up in detail and depth, I might go ahead and put effort into it, like I did quite a long while back in order to convince somebody else - with sources and success. He was indeed quite misogynistic, though, no denying that - but it doesn't keep me off finding wisdom in what little I read of his, nor off admiring the beauty of his language, which I find to even shine through in translation.

I am aware the nazis borrowed from his concepts even though he wasn't an antisemite, just goes to show how people interpet him differenlty...

Also i'm not sure wagner was influenced by freddie but schophenhauer definately influenced him.

Not sure if he's misogynistic but he never really got along with women...

Originally Posted by StephL

Here the full version of this demon-thought-experiment, including the last passage, which I view as pretty crucial to understanding his point

Damn i was looking for the full quote! thanks for that btw!

Originally Posted by StephL

It's impossible to live all of your life in such a permanent awareness of purpose, that would indeed be "Über" - beyond the abilities of a human being - but you can view it as something to take a measure of yourself with, an ideal. Imagine how your life would be like, if you managed to hold yourself up to the standard of non-regrettability! It is a glorious idea, it also made me think of how easy it is to just let life drag you along with it sometimes, but how every single moment is indeed a chance to take the steering wheel and realize your potential, view your opportunities not as something to wait for, but as something to shape and build yourself.

that's pretty much the concept of the ubermensch for him, a person who has overcome ALL his flaws, makes the best out of life and affirms and savors it till the end!

Originally Posted by ViIe

I don't agree with either option. The only person you should believe in is yourself. If you truly accept yourself then you'll realize loneliness is a delusion you yourself has created.

Well Nietzsche would really disagree with you on that, believing and accepting in your self is fine, but in a sense it almost seems like throwing in the towel. You must always improve your self!! never ending growth for Nietzsche is the only way one can perfect himself and come close to the ubermensch!

Originally Posted by StephL

Going by the "provocative title", I suppose it's about "checking Nietzsche out", "feeling his pulse" - to try to understand him and come to an opinion, including coming to an understanding of the infamous "Übermensch" concept.
Would be nice to know, where in "Gay Science" this piece is located, and to see the connection to that term, of which HeWhoShapes talked in the OP.
I'm not familiar with this topic, actually, but what I definitively know, is that "Übermensch" is not meant as a certain sort of human, let alone defined by race, but it is a theoretical construct of an entity, who's capabilities exceed those of any and all human beings. So no actual human can possibly be an ÜM.
I'm interested myself, so when HWS comes back, it might be fascinating to look into this ÜM thing in some depth, I can't pull it out of my behind, what it means and entails just now, needed to read up on it.

Well yeah, I did say this is only a very tiny part of his philospohy! I think I was trying to only give a bit of Nietzsche and hope you dilligently fill the rest!(which u definately did steph!)

Originally Posted by ViIe

I am fairly certain Nietzsche is an atheist and I still think we're on the same page toward the latter. The conclusion I came to when reading HeWhoShapes post was also the same empowering and being content with your life. However, the thread intention is what I am trying to understand correctly. I presented another perspective this can be perceived as and I am trying to confirm this is not what he or others who agree meant when comprehending Nietzsche message. I just want to make sure HeWhoShapes interpret in people being empowered and content with their lives because of themselves and not anyone else interference. The original poster never explained exactly why this makes you the higher man in his opinion and this is why I am curious to know how he interpret this concept. I'm not sure if he thought if he put his opinion about it, it would somewhat ruin the thought experiment. But I am sure it wont always be comprehended in the same way.

Well, what makes a higher man is self improvement!(what fredrich called "self overcoming") the more you are aware of you human, all too human flaws and try to overcome them, you are becoming a higher man and getting closer to being the ubermensch!(although according to Nietzsche probably no one can be a true ubermensch).

The reason the latter choice makes you the higher man is that despite the suffering, misery and sadness you had(and will have) in your life, you still affirm it and think it was a good life, the point here is to look at your decisions not with regret but say"yeah, i'm glad i made those choices". THAT is life affirmation! that is Nietzsche's noble ideal!

Originally Posted by ViIe

Perhaps you may be correct on how it is easier to understand Nietzsche and Zarathusta message in the German language than it is in English. Translations most often remove a person form of characteristics on their form of writing in to a more clear and yet misguided statement. Combine that with poetry with a concept like this and I am sure it can pave way toward confusion. I think this has been confirm since you have also pick up on this from reading the same phrases in different languages.

I think so too, I read that the english translations aren't always spot on, let's hope the hebrew ones are better!

Originally Posted by HeWhoShapes

Well Nietzsche would really disagree with you on that, believing and accepting in your self is fine, but in a sense it almost seems like throwing in the towel. You must always improve your self!! never ending growth for Nietzsche is the only way one can perfect himself and come close to the ubermensch!

That is another way to look at it but that isn't what I meant. In my opinion, I like to look at perfection in a way where you're truly being yourself. Perfection doesn't necessarily have to mean striving to be god or the best. It all depends on how they perceive perfection as it can mean there are simply no wrong answers or flaws. Which is why I say if you're being yourself and can accept that, then in truth you will find that there is nothing incorrect about you. Also, by accepting yourself doesn't imply to limit yourself from what's out there. I agree that self improvement is great and if there is something new that an individual is unaware of, it's best to learn and understand it.

Originally Posted by HeWhoShapes

Well, what makes a higher man is self improvement!(what fredrich called "self overcoming") the more you are aware of you human, all too human flaws and try to overcome them, you are becoming a higher man and getting closer to being the ubermensch!(although according to Nietzsche probably no one can be a true ubermensch).

The reason the latter choice makes you the higher man is that despite the suffering, misery and sadness you had(and will have) in your life, you still affirm it and think it was a good life, the point here is to look at your decisions not with regret but say"yeah, i'm glad i made those choices". THAT is life affirmation! that is Nietzsche's noble ideal!

We're on the same page then when it comes to the latter.
I'm unsure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the statement I made. By accepting yourself doesn't mean to close yourself off from self improvement. Of course, there's always more to excel in because no one knows what's the limits out there. Accepting yourself is not implying that you have a limit or no longer need to excel in any other area's. It's to be content with where you are currently at. To not feel horrible about being inferior or unable to achieve over other obstacles. I honestly think this is necessary in order to excel higher as it shows a certain degree in self control. In order to obtain higher you need to put all your focus and intention toward that goal. With thoughts like "you're not good enough" or "you can't do it" is only a distraction. This is what I mean by accepting yourself.

Originally Posted by snoop

The latter would seem to indicate a... gullibility? Eh, not the right choice of words, quite. Maybe I mean to say, naivety. Which of course is indicative of being a peon, not an Übermensch, as our dear friend Nietzsche would put it. I think it's safe to say that his test for being a more evolved being isn't logically sound, and I think most would agree. Such criteria for proving Übermensch qualities is clearly pretty silly.

You're missing the point. Nietzsche is speaking allegorically. He was, if nothing else, a magnificent writer. The tacit content of the metaphor is that you know the demon to be telling the truth. If you want, just ignore the story. Neitzsche is saying: if you learned that your life will recur forever, would you be appalled or overjoyed?

Hey - we're completely on the same page then, HeWhoShapes! That's really nice!

Originally Posted by HeWhoShapes

...according to Nietzsche the ubermensch must affirm this life which ties with his despise for plato and christianity on what he percives is their attempt to escape the world and it's suffering(to the metaphsyical realm and heaven respectively).

Yep - it was his counter-concept against striving for reward in the afterlife.

He sure had problems with women in his life, but I don't believe he hated women.
I found something, which really amused me. There seems to have been a kind of love triangle with Lou von Salomé, Paul Rée und Friedrich Nietzsche, and in 1882 they made a funny photo, called Trinity, where Salomé swings the whip to spur on her two philosopher-horses:



He really does not look the man to go and make funny photos, now does he?
But he did. Full kudos for self-irony there.



Btw. - I think, the English Zarathustra pdf I linked is fair enough, there are other translations, and at least one of those I found to be inferior to it. But to appreciate the full beauty of his language, German would be best of course. I'm having it on the backburner, so to speak, I read a part once in a while and then put it down again, and I still really like it. But I tend to read before sleeping, and it's actually rather something where you want your full faculties to really follow it, nuances and all. It's easy to glaze over, failing to understand a word of it, when half-asleep.