• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
    Results 26 to 49 of 49
    Like Tree21Likes

    Thread: Excellent videos about Carl Gustav Jung's theories

    1. #26
      Member
      Join Date
      Nov 2017
      Posts
      7
      Likes
      3
      I hope I'm not interupting this thread too much to say that I've been searching for knowledgeable writing about Jung all day, and Darkmatters, this thread is the best thing I've found. I've bookmarked your blog too.

      I don't know a lot about Carl Jung, although I have a psychology degree (we weren't taught about him!). At the moment I've a fascination with creativity and creative 'flow' and the sense of connection to something greater, divine, or whatever people wish to call it, and just following threads of interest and it's brought me to Jung, and now here.

      I have a specific question I've been stuck on all day, I wonder if you'd like me to post it here (it would be brief) or start a new thread for it?

      Either way, just wanted to say that I'm so glad I've stumbled on this (and hope I haven't interrupted too much)! :-)
      snoop likes this.

    2. #27
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      Hey, interrupt away!! This post has made my day.

      What the heck - go ahead and post your question here. I can't guarantee I'll have a good answer, but I'll try. And yeah, a lot of creative people find themselves fascinated by Jung, even when they hardly know what he was all about.

      I also want to link another thread here because it includes a lot of good Jungian information: What the hell was this experience? - Help needed...

      DawnEye11 sort of interviewed me in the thread about my attempts at Individuation, and I go into some detail about what I'd experienced up to that point, which was a little while ago. Just 2 nights ago things got really interesting and I had a dream that I take to be a symbolic encounter with the Self. I posted it in my Dream Journal yesterday: The Fixer Crew (Encounter with the Self!!)

      Just wanted to collect all those resources here into one thread.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-12-2017 at 03:15 AM.

    3. #28
      Member
      Join Date
      Nov 2017
      Posts
      7
      Likes
      3
      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post

      What the heck - go ahead and post your question here. I can't guarantee I'll have a good answer, but I'll try. And yeah, a lot of creative people find themselves fascinated by Jung, even when they hardly know what he was all about.
      Thanks!! Well obviously I'm at a very basic level, (if that!), but I'm trying to get a basic grasp of the individuation process atm. As I understand it, one confronts the shadow first, and later the animus or anima...

      Here's what I'm confused about. Is the animus / anima the Inner Beloved? And on one of the you tube videos it says that while the Persona is the bridge between the outer world and the ego, the animus / anima is the bridge between our unconscious world and the collective unconscious. Why? (I'm blocked here, I just don't 'get' any reason why that would be). Also another source suggested the animus / anima is the bridge between the conscious mind and the unconscious (so I don't know which it is).

      One site said that union with the inner beloved allows one to experience love at the level of the Self, the most perfect form of love....struggling to understand how one experiences love by the union of 2 aspects of themselves (or perhaps it means one is capable then of a deeper love, i'd understand that, but it didn't say that). Also struggling with why one's opposite (animus or anima) provides the gateway to the unconscious, where one's conscious self cannot.

      Sorry, this is just me being pedantic I suppose. Thanks for any thoughts you might have on this and I am glad to have found your blog in any case, as I wish to learn more in time. :-)

    4. #29
      Member
      Join Date
      Nov 2017
      Posts
      7
      Likes
      3
      I'm going to check out the two other links you posted now! Maybe I'll have an epiphany on all this soon.

    5. #30
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      Ok, this is going to be difficult for me to answer. I think I'm going to tackle it in sections. And to be honest, I don't feel like I know as much about the Anima/Animus as I do about the Shadow or some other aspects of Individuation. Also, this is not the kind of material where anyone can give precise, clear explanations. It's all very nebulous and subjective, the way our dreams are, and trying to tell somebody about a dream always fails to really get across the full experience of it. This stuff is really a lot more poetic than it is scientific or concrete.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rosanna View Post
      Is the animus / anima the Inner Beloved?
      I don't know what the Inner Beloved is - can you give a link or something where I could get a quick fix on it? Or just an explanation?

      Quote Originally Posted by Rosanna View Post
      And on one of the you tube videos it says that while the Persona is the bridge between the outer world and the ego, the animus / anima is the bridge between our unconscious world and the collective unconscious. Why? (I'm blocked here, I just don't 'get' any reason why that would be).
      I had written a big involved answer here, but then realized I misread what you had written. So it's answered below, along with your next question.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rosanna View Post
      Also another source suggested the animus / anima is the bridge between the conscious mind and the unconscious (so I don't know which it is).
      Oh oops! I just looked back and realized earlier you wrote this: "the animus / anima is the bridge between our unconscious world and the collective unconscious." My mistake - I wasn't paying close enough attention to the wording there. I think the narrator (that was from one of the Academy of Ideas videos, wasn't it?) put it rather poorly, or just plain messed up. It really doesn't make sense does it? Because the Collective Unconscious is half of the entire Unconscious World - the other half being the Personal Unconscious. Hmmm. I think it makes more sense to say the Anima/Animus is a bridge between the Unconscious and the Conscious. Which is what you said in your second part. So go with that one and assume he just messed up the other time.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rosanna View Post
      One site said that union with the inner beloved allows one to experience love at the level of the Self, the most perfect form of love....struggling to understand how one experiences love by the union of 2 aspects of themselves (or perhaps it means one is capable then of a deeper love, i'd understand that, but it didn't say that). Also struggling with why one's opposite (animus or anima) provides the gateway to the unconscious, where one's conscious self cannot.
      Ok, so it does sound like Inner Beloved is just another term for the Anima/Animus. And I think I can explain this one. "love at the level of the Self" is not the same as love at the level of the Ego. The Ego is grasping and desperate and treacherous, whereas the Self is none of those things. The Self transcends all opposites - the Ego is completely consumed by them. The Ego sees opposites (such as Liberal and Conservative, "our" candidate and "their" candidate, rich and poor, "Our Religion" and "their Religion" etc) and immediately believes one is good and the other is bad (and then rationalizes its actions). It falls into the trap of the opposites and chooses sides emotionally, without stopping and considering, and without trying to step up to a higher vantage point and see the problem from above.

      It's recommended in many spiritual and ancient philosophical systems that when you find yourself being caught up in the battle between opposites that the thing to do is to step outside of yourself - to imagine yourself rising up into the sky or climbing a mountain from where you can look down and see the crowds as tiny figures like ants squaring off to fight. Often of course there is no literal field with people squaring off, but it does help to picture it that way - conservatives on one side and liberals on the other for instance, each waving their banners and chanting their chants and forcefully projecting all their anger onto 'the other side', imagining that if "those idiots" can only be defeated (or killed?) or converted to 'the truth' then everything would be fine. If you can take that higher view - which essentially means to reach a more 'meta' level of understanding, where you're capable of thinking about how you think, then you can often see that both sides are equally at fault and that choosing sides is not the answer. It only makes things worse. This is what's meant by reconciling or transcending the opposites.

      The reason getting in touch with your opposites can open the gate to a fuller experience of the unconscious is because we repress our opposite. This is what the Shadow is. It consists of those things about ourselves that we don't like to admit exist. The things we're ashamed of, or that are socially unacceptable. So we repress them and create the Shadow, which is in effect our own dark reflection. The parts of ourselves we don't want to own. Our complete self includes those things - as long as we repress and deny their existence we're not fully aware of who we are. The Anima or Animus is also a sort of opposite, being the opposite sex. Aside from that though, I don't think the Anima/Animus is really our opposite - that's mostly the Shadow. But then gender is an important aspect of who a person is, and if you can't understand or relate to a person of the other gender, then you're still experiencing an opposite problem.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-12-2017 at 10:45 PM.

    6. #31
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      I think my unconscious was working on this as I slept last night - I woke up with this idea. It's just my theory mind you, but I suspect it's at least largely true - maybe with some caveats.

      Ok, you first have to significantly dissolve your Shadow and then meet your Anima(/us) before encountering the Self - and the Self is the Archetype of wholeness, right? (It is - don't know why I asked it as a question - maybe been watching too many Tarrantino interviews, ok, right?)

      So if the Shadow is the aspects of yourself that you repress and deny and try to disown by projecting them onto other people, then maybe the Anima (I'm just going to call it that for simplicity's sake - you know what I mean.... right?) - maybe the Anima represents the positive aspects that we lack and need to develop in order to achieve wholeness. Own the dark parts we try to disown, and work toward the good aspects that we haven't developed yet.

      I think it's not quite that simple though - because the Anima is the contrasexual part of you. For a male the original Anima figure was the mother, for a female the original Animus figure was the father. And later it takes the form of an opposite-sex person who seems perfect or ideal. So maybe it represents those aspects that, in an opposite-sex partner, would complete you? Many people don't feel complete unless they have a partner who seems to complement them - to be strong where they're weak or whatever. To have the qualities that they lack. But some people do possess qualities of both sexes in a good balance - these people tend to be creative and self-sufficent and not feel the need for another person to be complete. So to some extent anyway I think what I said above is probably true. The Anima/Animus represents those qualities we haven't developed yet that we need in order to achieve completeness. We can find those qualities in someone else or in ourselves. Yes, it actually makes perfect sense that our missing qualities would take form in dreams as an ideal romantic/life partner.

      Now I want to find out which books in my stack deal with the Anima/Animus and see if they confirm or contradict my theory. I suppose tAatCU would cover that, wouldn't it? Maybe also Mysterium Conjunctionis, which I don't have but according to my Amazon cart the price has just decreased recently and there's an Edinger book covering it as well. Hard to pass that up. I THINK it deals with the Anima - need to check.

      **** **** ****

      I just previewed the Look Inside for Edinger's Mystery of the Coniunctio, and it seems to deal mainly with the union of the oppostes, through the lens of Alchemical imagery. I'm hooked already just from the brief preview (most of it is the glossary at the end of the book ). I didn't see any mention in the table of contents or the introduction (the little bit I could read) of the Anima/Animus, but then that seems to be closely associated with the union of the opposites. My impression is that the Conjunction itself is the marriage of the Ego to the Anima (/Animus)? But I might be wrong about that. I do remember reading that one of Jung's most powerful visions was of a marriage between 2 mythological figures where he attended, and he was filled with immense joy the whole time and for a day or 2 afterwards. I think it completed his Individuation, and I seem to recall that he said the female mythological figure was his Anima. But that's partly just speculation on my part. I think I'm just going to buy both books on faith and feed my Jung addiction. (... Addictionis Jungium?? )
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-13-2017 at 07:09 PM.

    7. #32
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      Looking through my books I realized the Jung Lexicon would have good explanations of the Anima and Animus. They’re pretty lengthy but really helpful, so I’ll just laboriously copy them over here.

      Anima
      The inner feminine side of a man (see also Animus, Eros, Logos and Soul-Image.)

      The Anima is both a personal complex and an archetypal image of woman within the male psyche. It is an unconscious factor incarnated anew in every male child, and is responsible for the mechanism of projection. Initially identified with the personal mother, the anima is later experienced not only in other women, but as a pervasive influence in a man’s life.

      The anima is the archetype of life itself.

      There is (in man) an imago not only of the mother but of the daughter, the sister, the beloved, the heavenly goddess, and the chthonic Baubo. Every mother and every beloved is forced to become the carrier and embodiment of this omnipresent and ageless image, which corresponds to the deepest reality in a man. It belongs to him, this periolous image of Woman; she stands for the loyalty which in the interests of life he must sometimes forego; she is the much-needed compensation for the risks, struggles, sacrifices that all end in disappointment; she is the solace for all the bitterness of life. And, at the same time, she is the great illusionist, the seductress who draws him into life with her Maya - and not only into life’s reasonable and useful aspects, but into its frightful paradoxes and ambivalences where good and evil, success and ruin, hope and despair, counterbalance one another. Because she is his greatest danger she demands from a man his greatest, and if he has it in him she will recieve it.
      The anima is personified in dreams by images of women ranging from seductress to spiritual guide. It is associated with the eros principle, hence a man’s anima development is reflected in how he relates to women. Within his own psyche, the anima functions as his soul, influencing his ideas, attitudes and emotions.

      The anima is not the soul in the dogmatic sense, not an anima rationalis, which is a philosophical conception, but a natural archetype that satisfactorily sums up all the statements of the unconscious, of the primitive mind, of the history of language and religion… it is always the a priori element in (a man’s) moods, reactions, impulses, and whatever else is spontaneous in psychic life.

      The anima… intensifies, exaggerates, falsifies, and mythologizes all emotional relations with his work and with other people of both sexes. The resultant fantasies and entanglements are all her doing. When the anima is strongly constellated, she soften’s the man’s charcter and makes him touchy, irritable, moody, jealous, vain, and unadjusted.
      As an inner personality, the anima is complementary to the persona and stands in a compensatory relationship to it.

      The persona, the ideal picture of a man as he should be, is inwardly compensated by feminine weakness, and as the individual outwardly plays the strong man, so he becomes inwardly a woman, ie, the anima, for it is the anima that reacts to the persona. But because the inner world is dark and invisible… and because a man is all the less capable of conceiving his weakness the more he is identified with the persona, the persona’s counterpart, the anima, remains completely in the dark and is at once projected, so that our hero comes under the heel of his wife’s slipper.
      Hence the character of the anima can generally be deduced from that of the persona; all those qualities absent from the outer attitude will be found in the inner.

      The tyrant tormented by bad dreams, gloomy forebodings and inner fears is a typical figure. Outwardly ruthless, harsh, and unapproachable, he jumps inwardly at every shadow, is at the mercy of every mood, as though he were the feeblest and most impressionable of men. Thus his anima contains all those fallible human qualities his persona lacks. If the persona is intellectual, the anima will certainly be sentimental.
      Similarly, where a man identifies with the persona, he is in effect possessed by the anima, with attendant symptoms.

      Identity with the persona automatically leads to an unconscious identification with the anima because, when the ego is not differenciated from the persona, it can have no conscious relation to the unconscious processes. Consequently it IS these processes, it is identical with them. Anyone who is himself his outward role will will infallibly succumb to the inner processes; he will either frustrate his outward role by absolute inner necessity or else reduce it to absurdity, by a process of enantiodromia. He can no longer keep to his individual way, and his life runs into one deadlock after another. Moreover, the anima is inevitably projected upon a real object, with which he gets into a relation of almost total dependence.
      Jung distinguished four broad stages of the anima, analogous to levels of the Eros cult described in the late Classical period. He personified them as Eve, Helen, Mary and Sophia.

      In the first stage, Eve, the anima is indistinguishable from the personal mother. The man cannot function well without a close tie to a woman. In the second stage, personified in the historical figure of Helen of Troy, the anima is a collective and ideal sexual image (“All is dross that is not Helen”— Marlowe). The third stage, Mary, manifests in religious feelings and a capacity for lasting relationships. In the fourth stage, as Sophia (called Wisdom in the Bible), a man’s anima functions as a guide to the inner life, mediating to consciousness the contents of the unconscious. She cooperates in the search for meaning and is the creative muse in an artist’s life.

      Ideally a man’s anima proceeds naturally through these stages as he grows older. In fact, as an archetypal life force, the anima manifests in whatever shape or form is necessary to compensate the dominant conscious attitude.

      So long as the anima is unconscious, everything she stands for is projected. Most commonly, because of the initially close tie between the anima and the protective mother-imago, this projection falls on the partner, with predictable results.

      (A man’s) ideal of marriage is so arranged that his wife has to take over the magical role of the mother. Under the cloak of the ideally exclusive marriage he is really seeking his mother’s protection, and thus he plays into the hands of his wife’s possessive instincts. His fear of the dark, incalculable power of the unconscious gives his wife an illegitimate authority over him, and forges such a dangerously close union that the marriage is permanently on the brink of explosion from internal tension.
      No matter where a man is in terms of psychological development, he is always prone to see aspects of his anima, his soul, in an actual woman. The same is true of the animus. Their personal aspects may be integrated and their significance understood, but their essential nature cannot be exhausted.

      Though the effects of anima and animus can be made conscious, they themselves are factors transcending consciousness and beyond the reach of perception and volition. Hence they remain autonomous despite the integration of their contents, and for this reason they should be borne constantly in mind.
      The psychological prority in the first half of life is for a man to free himself from the anima fascination of the mother. In later life, the lack of a conscious relationship with the anima is attended by symptoms of “loss of soul”.

      Younger people… can even bear the total loss of anima without injury. The important thing at this stage is for a man to be a man…

      After the middle of life however, permanent loss of the anima means a diminution of vitality, of flexibility, and of human kindness. The result, as a rule, is premature rigidity, crustiness, stereotypy, fanatical one-sidedness, obstinacy, pedantry, or else resignation, weariness, sloppiness, irresponsibility, and finally a childish ramollissement (petulence) with a tendency to alcohol.
      One way for a man to become familiar with the nature of his anima is through the method of active imagination. This is done by personifying her as an autonomus personality, asking her questions and attending to the response.

      I mean this as an actual technique… the art of it consists only in allowing your invisible partner to make herself heard, in putting the mechanism of expression momentarily at her disposal, without being overcome by the distaste one naturally feels at playing such an apparently ludicrous game with oneself, or by doubts as to the genuineness of the voice of one’s interlocutor.
      Jung suggested that if the encounter with the shadow is the “apprentice-piece” in a man’s development, then coming to terms with the anima is the “master-piece”. The goal is her transformation from a troublesome adversary into a function of relationship between consciousness and the unconscious. Jung called this “the conquest of the anima as an autonomous complex.”

      With the attainment of this goal it becomes possible to disengage the ego from all its engagements with collectivity and the collective unconscious. Through this process the anima forfeits the daemonic power of an autonomous complex; she can no longer exercise the power of possession, since she is depotentiated. She is no longer the guardian of treasures unknown; no longer Kundry, daemonic Messenger of the Grail, half divine and half animal; no longer is the soul to be called “Mistress,” but a psychological function of the intuitive nature, akin to what the primitives mean when they say “He has gone into the forest to talk with the spirits” or “My snake spoke with me,” or, in the mythological language of infancy, “A little bird told me."


      Whew!! Lots of typing!!! Worth it though, now I feel like I understand the anima much better. Next up, Animus! (.. Bananimus? ) Stay tuned...
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-14-2017 at 03:10 AM.

    8. #33
      Member
      Join Date
      Nov 2017
      Posts
      7
      Likes
      3
      Darkmatters

      Thanks so much for these replies, I really appreciate it. I'm just dropping in to say that I have a crazy early part of the week but I will come back and properly absorb everything you've written carefully by Weds or Thurs. Don't want you to think I'm ignoring or not grateful because you've been really generous with your time and knowledge. I'll be back.
      Darkmatters likes this.

    9. #34
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      Thanks for letting me know. I'll be writing up the Animus section in a bit. First though, today's Carl Jung Depth Psychology Reading Group video from Aion is about the shadow, which fits nicely here:



      Wow, and extra bonus - he talks about the anima and animus too!! I think he read a couple of the quotes I just posted, and probably some of the ones I'm about to post too.

      .. And Edinger's commentary:



      Not really about anima or animus, but some good info on the shadow.

      I won't keep posting these, but it was a pleasant synchronicity that both videos today dealt directly with the archetypes.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-15-2017 at 12:47 AM.

    10. #35
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      Animus
      The inner masculine side of a woman. (See also anima, Eros, Logos, and soul-image.)

      Like the anima in a man, the animus is both a personal complex and an archetypal image.

      Woman is compensated by a masculine element and therefore her unconscious has, so to speak, a masculine imprint. this results in a considerable psychological difference between men and women, and accordingly I have called the projection-making factor in women the animus, which means mind or spirit. The animus corresponds to the paternal Logos just as the anima corresponds to the maternal Eros.

      The animus is the deposit, as it were, of all woman’s ancestral experiences of man — and not only that, he is also a creative and procreative being, not in the sense of masculine creativity, but but in the sense that he brings forth something that we might call… the spermatic world.
      Whereas the anima in a man functions as his soul, a woman’s animus is more like an unconscious mind. It manifests negatively in fixed ideas, collective opinions and unconscious, a priori assumptions that lay claim to absolute truth. In a woman who is identified with the animus (called animus-possession), Eros generally takes second place to Logos.

      A woman possessed by the animus is always in danger of losing her femininity.

      No matter how friendly and obliging a woman’s Eros may be, no logic on earth can shake her if she is ridden by the animus… (A man) is unaware that this highly dramatic situation would instantly come to a banal and unexciting end if he were to quit the field and let a second woman carry on the battle (his wife, for instance, if she herself is not the fiery war horse). This sound idea seldom or never occurs to him, because no man can converse with an animus for 5 minutes without becoming a victim of his own anima.
      The animus becomes a helpful psychological factor when a woman can tell the difference between ideas generated by this autononous complex and what she herself really thinks.

      Like the anima, the animus too has a positive aspect. through the figure of the father he expresses not only conventional opinion but — equally — what we call “spirit,” philosophical or religious ideas in particular, or rather the attitude resulting from them. Thus the animus is a psychopomp, a mediator between the conscious and the unconscious and a personification of the latter.
      Jung described the four stages of animus development in a woman. He first appears in dreams and fantasy as the embodiment of physical power, an athlete, muscle man or thug. In the second stage, the animus provides her with initiative and the capacity for planned action. He is behind a woman’s desire for independence and a carreer of her own. In the next stage, the animus is the “word,” often personified in dreams as a professor or clergyman. In the fourth stage, the animus is the incarnation of spiritual meaning. On this highest level, like the anima as Sophia, the animus mediates between a woman’s conscious mind and the unconscious. In mythology this aspect of the animus appears as Hermes, messenger of the gods; in dreams he is a helpful guide.

      Any of these aspects of the animus can be projected onto a man. As with the projected anima, this can lead to unrealistic expectations and acrimony in relationships.

      Like the anima, the animus is a jealous lover. He is adept at putting, in place of the real man, an opinion about him, the exceedingly disputable grounds for which are never submitted to criticism. Animus opinions are invariably collective, and they override individuals and individual judgements in exactly the same way as the anima thrusts her emotional anticipations and projections between man and wife.
      The existence of the contrasexual complexes means that in any relationship between a man and a woman there are at least four personalities involved. The possible lines of communication are shown by the arrows in the diagram.

      11 14 17 diagram.jpg
      Click thumbnail to enlarge

      While a man’s task in assimilating the effects of the anima involves discovering his true feelings, a woman becomes familiar with the nature of the animus by constantly questioning her ideas and opinions.

      The technique of coming to terms with the animus is the same in principle as in the case of the anima; only here the woman must learn to criticize and hold her opinions at a distance; not in order to repress them, but, by investigating their origins, to penetrate more deeply into the background, where she will then discover the primordial images, just as the man does in his dealings with the anima.

    11. #36
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger Second Class
      snoop's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      300+
      Gender
      Location
      Indiana
      Posts
      1,607
      Likes
      1073
      I don't really have time at the moment to read all of what DarkMatters shared about the Anima/Animus and Shadow, but I'd like to give my take on why you have to become fully aware of and integrate them into the "self".

      Most fundamentally, these archetypes, among others, represent what can be thought of as sub-personalities of yours. These sub-personalities, until integrated into the conscious self, have their motivations and desires relegated to the unconscious. Your unconscious mind is still quite capable of influencing your personality, your desires, your motivations, your emotions, and your behavior.

      Because these sub-personalities aren't consciously recognized, their motivations, desires, and overall nature are often overlooked or even actively suppressed. When the latter happens, these motivations and desires don't simply go away, but are further pushed into the unconscious. The more they're suppressed, the more likely they will either influence your perceptions through your overall outlook on the world (which winds up causing you to act out these desires as a result of their emotions and desires helping form your beliefs about the world), or in stressful and difficult situations they will suddenly and almost even violently take control of your behavior. A good example is how you do things you later regret as a result of being angry. It can even go so far as people hurting or even killing others and being horrified at their actions and left feeling as though they weren't in control of their actions (like another person took control of them--the suppressed sub-personalities).

      So, to become a fuller person, you have to recognize, become fully aware of, and accept/embrace these sub-personalities of yours. It just so happens that Jung identified the Anima/Animus and Shadow (the latter especially, imo) as the most prominent ones whose integration into the conscious self are the most paramount in the goal of achieving individuation and self-actualization.
      Last edited by snoop; 11-16-2017 at 03:50 PM.
      Darkmatters likes this.

    12. #37
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      Very well said!!

    13. #38
      Member
      Join Date
      Nov 2017
      Posts
      7
      Likes
      3
      I have begun reading and watched the two videos on the shadow... Will keep going

      I'm trying to understand also how the shadow might show up when people are trying to be creative, be it getting essays done, or creative writing, or any other art. I'm thinking perhaps in how they might blame others for not giving them time to work, or preventing them from concentrating, or stuff like that....

      I'll read the rest now!
      snoop likes this.

    14. #39
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      Quote Originally Posted by Rosanna View Post
      I'm trying to understand also how the shadow might show up when people are trying to be creative, be it getting essays done, or creative writing, or any other art. I'm thinking perhaps in how they might blame others for not giving them time to work, or preventing them from concentrating, or stuff like that....
      Interesting - something I hadn't thought about before, but I see where you're coming from. Off the top of my head - aside from what you mentioned, maybe someone's dark impulses just start showing up in their art. They might find whatever they create is leaning toward violence or darkness inexplicably. Or they might just have a sort of mini temper tantrum - similar to blaming others as you said, but just an explosion of temper that blocks creativity and concentration when they need it most. Or those sudden cravings or desires to be doing something else - anything else, that evaporate as soon as the time to do the work is past. The shadow is sort of the devil that sits on your shoulder and tempts you to do anything aside from what you need to be doing. You did cover that with "preventing them from concentrating" - I'm just going into a little more detail.

      I'm glad you showed up with these questions - it's really making me go deeper than I have into the subject. This is why a good dialogue is the best way to learn about something or deepen your understanding of it.

    15. #40
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger Second Class
      snoop's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      300+
      Gender
      Location
      Indiana
      Posts
      1,607
      Likes
      1073
      Oooh, good topic to bring up with the art. I myself think a lot can be gleaned from your gut reaction to art as an observer and from seemingly inconsequential details that, to the artist, just seemed the natural to do in that situation (in which case, unless somebody is particularly skilled at viewing their creations from a detached and more objective perspective, commentary from people who observe the art is extremely important in revealing what the artist thought as being natural as something with perhaps more significance to it).

      I know we're talking about art in particular, but I think the most effective way to highlight what I mean by gut reactions is to talk about humor. Take something like dark humor, for example. Some people find dark humor much funnier than others, and at times they even find concepts not presented as jokes funny before having to kind of suppress the urge to smile or laugh because the subject matter and the company they're with.

      The fact they might find something like the manner in which a person was hurt or murdered funny, for example, says something about what they pay attention to when visualizing something like that and how they react to it emotionally before inhibiting any of their emotional impulses or feelings. If they find the idea of how somebody was killed funny, chances are they're more likely to pay attention to the irony of the situation itself or how goofy something actually looks from the outside while somebody else might focus on how horrible the fact somebody dying and somebody else actually being willing and capable of doing so. This is useful information regarding something like the Shadow, and even more so, how well they recognize and are aware of their Shadow and have been able to become comfortable with that part of themselves and integrate it into their conscious personality.

      To me, the person who focuses more on how awful the idea of murder is likely rejects the idea that they are capable of doing such a thing or possess those kinds of impulses, and finds something wrong with or disturbing about people who openly admit that they know they are, in fact, capable of those kinds of horrific actions (this has actually happened to me quite a lot, me being the one that disturbs somebody else, lol). The person who is able to pay attention to the situation, the motivations, etc., involved in what happened is more likely, by that same token, to be aware of the fact everybody is capable of committing those kinds of acts and has accepted that without letting it scare or disgust them... it just is what it is.

      When it comes to art, I think the appearance of the art will present itself in the same manner that the artist views the subject matter and all darker subject matters. In a sense, the art manifests the same characteristics the artist's personality manifests. Somebody who more explicitly depicts gore, violence, or is upfront with how dark the content actually is will tend to be more accepting of the Shadow, where as somebody less accepting of it will likely have the darkness either not present at all in what they make, or it will be covered/dressed up in a way that makes it less disturbing.

      Then again, the goal of the piece itself and what's meant to be depicted is just as important as what's actually produced, and knowing what was intended in the artists mind (even if they ultimately think that what they intended shouldn't matter) is an extremely significant bit of information when using the art to learn about them. If the dark things are all explicit and highlighted but the person was meaning to show it all, it wouldn't necessarily mean they accept their Shadow, it could be pointing out how terrible and disgusting they think that all is. Likewise, somebody that depicts a scene from daily life that they believe to be a farce and that there is a secretly deep and dark element behind it, their work may reflect that and the darkness won't be so explicit that you'd get it without the context of the work itself (and they might well accept their Shadow).

      When it comes to using artwork to discover things about your own personality, simply remaining aware of your emotional reactions and the feelings the works give you and really questioning why that is the case is capable of telling you just about anything you want to know (given you look at enough different pieces of art). If something in it really disturbs you, why? What about that answer is actually disturbing at its core? Take that answer and question why you feel that way as well, and continue on down. Eventually you get to why you feel the way you do about something at the most fundamental level, and you're able from there to understand and accept things about yourself, your reality, and other people that you experience growth.
      Rosanna likes this.

    16. #41
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      .. And sometimes a trialogue is even better than a dialogue!

      Snoop, you bring a darker perspective to this than I can muster, though I can go pretty deep. I think you've experienced things I haven't. I don't know what kind of things and I won't ask. But I really appreciate what you're bringing to the table. Don't get me wrong, I have experienced some real darkness, but I think of a less violent kind, or something. Not sure how to express it.

      This is reminding me of what Jordan Peterson says about needing to get in touch with the darkest parts of yourself, which are shockingly dark and sinister. You need to really understand that you could personally do the absolute worst things any human has ever done - mass murder, torture, rape, etc. Often the people who do these things are not much different from any of us but they just got pushed in ways most people don't. Or sometimes it' doesn't even take much pushing - as illustrated by the experiments where an authority figure kept telling the real test subjects (who thought the other person was the test subject) to turn up the voltage higher and higher, and they believed they were electrocuting the person on the other side of the window. And the other person acted like they were in pain, but when the authority figure told them to, almost everybody would willingly turn up the 'voltage' higher and higher, to beyond the point they had been told was supposed to be fatal. This shows why most ordinary people will do what they're told by an authority figure, even if they know it's wrong and goes against their own personal morals. Hence the common comment by Nazis that they were only following orders.

      Peterson got this from Jung - who said that the Tree of Life has roots going all the way to hell, and it needs to go that deep or its upper branches wouldn't brush against heaven. And by Tree of Life he meant each person's soul basically. If a person is unable to find those depths of depravity in themselves - at least to admit quite honestly that they are capable of those things - then they're stuck behind the persona and need to do a lot more shadow work. Of course the problem with discovering these things about yourself is that if you talk openly about it you'll be cast out of polite society, which is a bunch of people hiding behind their personae and pretending there are no deeper layers.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-18-2017 at 06:17 PM.

    17. #42
      Member
      Join Date
      Nov 2017
      Posts
      7
      Likes
      3
      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      Interesting - something I hadn't thought about before, but I see where you're coming from. Off the top of my head - aside from what you mentioned, maybe someone's dark impulses just start showing up in their art. They might find whatever they create is leaning toward violence or darkness inexplicably. Or they might just have a sort of mini temper tantrum - similar to blaming others as you said, but just an explosion of temper that blocks creativity and concentration when they need it most. Or those sudden cravings or desires to be doing something else - anything else, that evaporate as soon as the time to do the work is past. The shadow is sort of the devil that sits on your shoulder and tempts you to do anything aside from what you need to be doing. You did cover that with "preventing them from concentrating" - I'm just going into a little more detail.

      I'm glad you showed up with these questions - it's really making me go deeper than I have into the subject. This is why a good dialogue is the best way to learn about something or deepen your understanding of it.
      Thanks Darkmatters, yes I was thinking of dark impulses showing up in their art also, but I was also wondering about what might make people afraid from even attempting something creative, and is that due to the shadow, or not. Because I would imagine one meets the shadow part way through a creative journey, if we see it as similar to a type of individuation, not before they begin. Yet a lot of people don't begin because of fears, like fears of not being good enough, or of what others might think, etc. And I'm wondering if these fears are repressing any type of shadow.......I'm also confused now because is the scary monster inside, or monsters, really that dark? Or do they just seem dark? And then I'm thinking, yes, sometimes they will be very dark.....but maybe other times more mundane...

      I'm also wondering if there are any good examples of shadow characters in movies/books? I thought of Voldemort in Harry Potter, but here it does seem to be more external evil...sorry to go off track, feel free to ignore anything that you think doesn't serve your thread here and/or let me know if you want me to start a different thread :-)

    18. #43
      Member
      Join Date
      Nov 2017
      Posts
      7
      Likes
      3
      hmmm.....while we're talking about our own darkness, I once had a terrible guilt complex after learning about eugenics. I could see the logic in selecting out genes (lets be clear, genes, NOT people or cultures) so that people and animals wouldn't have to suffer illness and I felt guilty because it's generally seen as a negative and people like Hitler always talked about physical perfection. (I can now also see the negative aspect of this, those genes may cause illness, but protect against other things). I was less bothered about perfection and certainly unhappy with what Hitler did to all those innocent people, I didn't agree with him at all, but I had discovered eugenics and could see the positive aspect to it. No one talked about it and I wouldn't even tell my family. Then I was seeing a counsellor as part of a course I had to do, it was obligatory, and I mentioned it and he said to me, something like, 'so the idea is compelling and you can't let go of it because you see some good in that darkness.' And with that, I was able to release it and the guilt. There is some good in it, it's just that someone abused the whole thing. I started to embrace more of the 'grey' and less the black and white and I've also realised there are no definitive answers about anything, or at least that understanding has helped me..........And on that note, darkness has it's purpose, even when it's truly dark. I read in one book about how mothers of young babies will reach a stage where they feel rejecting of the child. In the short term that rejection and not giving attention is negative, but in the long term it releases the mother from the bond that's been so intense and allows her to have a break finally, also it then encourages the child to find ways of nurturing themselves, and the process of growing up begins. Then there's the thing with women's hormones, of which I know a thing or two, lol, that at certain phases in the cycle they 'can't take no shit from anyone.' At this time understanding, patience, is not there, they just want everything sorted out and for people to stop whining, lol. Dark? But the clearing that takes place is light, stopping all the demands, the whining, the needing, getting away from everyone, and then finding peace. It becomes light. And if a woman is about to give birth then this can be essential to create a positive nurturing environment for the baby. But for those who might have been on the receiving end of the woman's impatience, or rejection, it will be perceived as dark. I suppose that's why we need both, but dark isn't always dark therefore.....though of course Voldemort and other characters are just dark....Not sure what I'm really saying, lol

    19. #44
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      Quote Originally Posted by Rosanna View Post
      I was also wondering about what might make people afraid from even attempting something creative, and is that due to the shadow, or not. Because I would imagine one meets the shadow part way through a creative journey, if we see it as similar to a type of individuation, not before they begin.
      The individuation process is a huge arc that takes months or years to complete - it can't be equated with a single art project. Maybe a big project, like creating a comic book or something, which also takes months or years and involves growth of the artist and facing many challenges along the way.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rosanna View Post
      Yet a lot of people don't begin because of fears, like fears of not being good enough, or of what others might think, etc. And I'm wondering if these fears are repressing any type of shadow
      Fear of social consequences is more about being afraid to drop the persona - the social mask, and march to your own drum. I don't think that qualifies as shadow material. Of course, keep in mind I'm only a little ways ahead of you in studying this stuff - I don't really know what I'm talking about. But with that caveat in mind, I would say the shadow doesn't really show up until a person has had the courage to take off the mask of the persona and begun to authentically experience their own true self. To continue wearing that mask is to hide behind a sort of collective social construct - to say "It's ok everybody - see, I'm just like you all are and there's nothing different or strange about me". Real creativity doesn't happen when people are being collective, at least not individual creativity.


      Quote Originally Posted by Rosanna View Post
      .......I'm also confused now because is the scary monster inside, or monsters, really that dark? Or do they just seem dark? And then I'm thinking, yes, sometimes they will be very dark.....but maybe other times more mundane...
      Fear is like a fire alarm (huh - sounds like the beginning of a joke or a riddle doesn't it? Like "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" Fear is just your inner warning system, and it doesn't differentiate - it doesn't know if somebody just pulled the test lever, if somebody is smoking in the hallway, or if the building is being consumed by massive flames. It just goes off when there's any level of danger, or anything that it equates with danger. Then it's up to you to try to determine the level and type of threat and the best response to it.

      Also, closely related to this, here's my own idea of what the conscious mind is and how/why it developed in our ancestors. My own theory (hopefully not as wrong as the last one I posted in here!) - but I've been considering it for a long time and haven't yet found any contradictory evidence. I'll ty to keep this short, but it covers a lot of territory evolutionarily speaking. And I think it helps explain a part of your last question.

      Until humankind evolved, there was no real conscious mind in existence, just tiny sparks of semi-conscious awareness in the minds of some of the higher animals. All thought was unconscious, on the level of dreams and the thoughts of very young children - all decisions driven by instinct, instant opinions and biases. Animals tend not to learn from their mistakes, and are incapable of what we call abstract thought - the basis of things like math, language and art. They pretty much just react, and they react the same way every time, even if the results are disastrous.

      So my thought is that the conscious mind developed as a sort of double-check on our lightning-swift unconscious decisions. A way to evaluate them and see if maybe a different course of action might work better than, for instance, panicking and lashing out randomly (which seems to be a favorite among animals, young children, drunks, and others who aren't currently running on full consciousness). Conscious thought is much slower than unconscious thought (which really would be better termed 'unconscious impulses', since there is no real thought involved). As I mentioned earlier, I think it was in this thread - the conscious mind works on different principles - linear rather than in parallel, so you can concentrate specifically on each aspect of a problem and work it out in great detail, rather than the simple burst of instant decision-making that takes place in the unconscious. After trying a particular response to a situation, we can then use the conscious apparatus to evaluate how well it worked and to figure out other strategies we might try next time. No animal ever had the ability to do this before we stood erect and started making tools and languages. It also allows us to strategize possible solutions before a problem arises.

      So, to try to cut this short before it turns into War and Peace, the unconscious just turns on the warning siren "DANGER DANGER DANGER DO SOMETHING DO IT NOW JUST DO IT". This doesn't always result in the best solution, obviously, but because we now benefit from the neocortex and the conscious thinking it allows, we are able to ponder away from the actual situation itself - to make decisions that are based on deliberate thinking rather than instant jumping-to-conclusions. This I think is why our dreams (unconscious stories relating ideas to us in symbolic form) present us with these simplistic ideas - they come from the unconscious - and it's up to us to use the conscious apparatus to interpret them and understand what they're saying. The same is also true for those unconscious impulses that present themselves to us when awake - fantasies, daydreams, sudden impulses etc. - and the art we create if we're being open and honest enough with ourselves. For this reason, anyone who wants to go farther in this direction should study psychotherapy and psychoanalysis - in particular Jungian Depth psychology, which I believe is the best system.

      Lol sorry - not quite War and Peace, but I believe it qualifies as a novelette.

      Quote Originally Posted by Rosanna View Post
      I'm also wondering if there are any good examples of shadow characters in movies/books? I thought of Voldemort in Harry Potter, but here it does seem to be more external evil...sorry to go off track, feel free to ignore anything that you think doesn't serve your thread here and/or let me know if you want me to start a different thread :-)
      Voldemort would be a great shadow character!! Think about how fears or evil impulses would tend to reveal themselves in dreams if they had to cloak themselves in human form, or maybe animal or mythological character form. A classic shadow character though would be somehow hard to see clearly - the face might be hidden somehow, or under a hood or mask, or literally hidden in shadows, as Loki was in one of my shadow dreams. They aren't always hard to see clearly, but frequently they are.

      Also keep in mind, dreams do tend to present our own impulses or faults to us as characters. Sometimes you might dream about someone you know, but it's really representing a characteristic of yours. Your mom for instance might represent your own stubbornness or impulsivity or something else. A friend might represent some trait of yours that the friend seems to embody in real life. So when you dream about people - either people you know or celebrities or historical figures - think about some trait that person is known for (to you anyway, if not in general).

      So what I'm saying is that in dreams evil will tend to take personified form, to seem external. It will also tend to do that in waking life as well, because we project our bad traits onto other people, groups, or situations. So whenever you catch yourself thinking somebody else is evil, or bad, or is the cause of your problems, take heed - that may well be a projection learn to check, to examine yourself critically and see if maybe your'e projecting some unwanted trait of your own onto another person. In the beginning it's really hard to be that brutally honest with yourself. And even when you get fairly good at it, there will always be some stuff that you REALLY don't want to own, so you'll convince yourself it's not a projection, but really the other person. What makes it hard is that sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't and sometimes both can be true to some extent.

      This is another situation where it's good practice to learn to step outside of yourself - rise up into the clouds and look down, or see yourself through the metaphorical eyes of another person - get outside of your own head in other words, and try to evaluate yourself clinically and objectively. Use the old writing trick authors will use if they get stuck on a scene or an act - write it through from the viewpoint of a different character (incidentally, this is how recent plays and movies like Wicked and The Great And Powerful Oz came about I think). It gives you a very different perspective and makes it much easier to evaluate your own motives impartially. Put yourself in the other person's shoes literally - try to understand it from their perspective.

      Ok wow sorry - this keeps getting longer and longer!! Better stop editing now.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-19-2017 at 06:17 PM.

    20. #45
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156

      More on the Anima and Animus

      Aion Chapter 3: The Syzygy - Anima and Animus (part 1):



      For anyone who's interested, subscribe to the channel to get updates for each new chapter.

    21. #46
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      Quote Originally Posted by Rosanna View Post
      I was seeing a counsellor as part of a course I had to do, it was obligatory, and I mentioned it and he said to me, something like, 'so the idea is compelling and you can't let go of it because you see some good in that darkness.' And with that, I was able to release it and the guilt. There is some good in it, it's just that someone abused the whole thing. I started to embrace more of the 'grey' and less the black and white and I've also realised there are no definitive answers about anything, or at least that understanding has helped me..........And on that note, darkness has it's purpose, even when it's truly dark.
      Yes! You're on the right path. Embrace even the darkness - if you reject it and blame (as you actually sort of did with the Hitler example above) then you can't think about it with any truthfulness. If you dehumanize the 'enemy' and scapegoat them, then you aren't really able to consider any truth that they might bring, and separate it from the lies or the untruths. When people use a term like Hitler and mean it simply as a sweeping condemnation of absolute evil - they're missing the reality. Hitler did exactly what the people of Germany of the time wanted, and they supported him overwhelmingly. Of course they didn't know about the death camps - that didn't come out until later. But you must learn to see even someone like Hitler as a human being probably overcome with complexes or neuroses or maybe psychoses. I recommend Jordan Peterson's videos for this aspect of things.

    22. #47
      Member Achievements:
      1000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class Made lots of Friends on DV Tagger Second Class
      snoop's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 2008
      LD Count
      300+
      Gender
      Location
      Indiana
      Posts
      1,607
      Likes
      1073
      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      Snoop, you bring a darker perspective to this than I can muster, though I can go pretty deep. I think you've experienced things I haven't. I don't know what kind of things and I won't ask. But I really appreciate what you're bringing to the table. Don't get me wrong, I have experienced some real darkness, but I think of a less violent kind, or something. Not sure how to express it.
      I apologize if I took the thread in a bit of an uncomfortable direction without intending to. Either I'm speaking with others in a kind of casual chat mode, or I'm spewing forth a stream of thought. Truth be told, despite being just fine in social situations (usually), I'm usually totally oblivious to regular person sensibilities. That is to say, I don't find any topic taboo and I don't really have a sense of repulsive disgust or have difficulty hearing others' talk about subjects that a lot of people find gross, disturbing, or otherwise uncomfortable to hear (the latter is a total mystery to me really). Like everyone else, I treat others like how I want and expect to be treated, but considering I never find dark topics... dark or uncomfortable to talk about or hear, I';; often wind up saying things (in more familiar company) that draws a few "dude, what the fuck?"'s and "that's fucked up man"'s.

      Could have a lot to do with my concussion and the (mild) permanent cognitive impairment and the uh... let's call it intense psychological disturbances it caused after about a year and lasted quite some time. There's also the fact that I was in the Army and was airborne infantry and pretty much everybody in my company was capable of joking and laughing at some pretty dark stuff and what not. If the concussion didn't do it on its own, being around a bunch of guys who just didn't care like that definitely did, lol.

      edit:
      Actually, after posting my response I just realized I freely and openly admitted I have permanent cognitive impairment (added the "mildly" in since it is, although the actual diagnosis of Mild Cognitive Impairment, which I have, is a bit of a misnomer considering the next step up from it diagnosis wise is Dementia and I've got like a 75% chance of developing dementia by the age of 35-45 apparently... honestly it kinda feels like it already on days where my memory and general ability to even process information is terrible) and admitted what I guess most people would consider to be private and personal information like it was natural and didn't even notice that it might sound a little weird to share until rereading my post, lol. Oh well, just corroborates my statements about lacking any kind of social sense about people's sensibilities or awareness of where personal boundaries lie.

      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      Peterson got this from Jung - who said that the Tree of Life has roots going all the way to hell, and it needs to go that deep or its upper branches wouldn't brush against heaven. And by Tree of Life he meant each person's soul basically.
      I'm pretty sure I the place I first heard it referred to as an idea was Peterson as well, I've always believed he's rather good at achieving the task of being able to present and clearly re-express the complicated ideas and subject matter of the philosophers he gives lectures on in a way that makes it easy to digest and make sense of without actually having to really dumb down the content any to make that happen. That's a pretty unique skill I don't really see very often.
      Last edited by snoop; 11-20-2017 at 10:43 AM.

    23. #48
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      I apologize if I took the thread in a bit of an uncomfortable direction without intending to.
      Don't worry about it - it's all good. Hey, if we can't go a little dark on a thread about the shadow, then where can we, huh?

      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      Either I'm speaking with others in a kind of casual chat mode, or I'm spewing forth a stream of thought.
      Bingo! When you put it that way, that pretty much encapsulates your posting style.

      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      Truth be told, despite being just fine in social situations (usually), I'm usually totally oblivious to regular person sensibilities. That is to say, I don't find any topic taboo and I don't really have a sense of repulsive disgust or have difficulty hearing others' talk about subjects that a lot of people find gross, disturbing, or otherwise uncomfortable to hear (the latter is a total mystery to me really). Like everyone else, I treat others like how I want and expect to be treated, but considering I never find dark topics... dark or uncomfortable to talk about or hear, I'll often wind up saying things (in more familiar company) that draws a few "dude, what the fuck?"'s and "that's fucked up man"'s.

      Could have a lot to do with my concussion and the (mild) permanent cognitive impairment and the uh... let's call it intense psychological disturbances it caused after about a year and lasted quite some time. There's also the fact that I was in the Army and was airborne infantry and pretty much everybody in my company was capable of joking and laughing at some pretty dark stuff and what not. If the concussion didn't do it on its own, being around a bunch of guys who just didn't care like that definitely did, lol.
      At the end of the first paragraph I was thinking Asperger's Syndrome. The symptoms sound kind of similar, at least to an extent. But the second paragraph explains it. And I think I just got confirmation about a theory of mine that I lost quite a bit of my own cognitive ability and memory when I slipped on some ice on my bike and hit my head on the street. I came down hard on my left temple (temporal lobe) while going faster than I wanted to be going, because of the ice on a reverse-banked curve that went downhill and when I hit the brakes it didn't slow me down at all, just locked up the tires forcing me to slide. Suddenly the whole bike flipped up over my head and dumped me on the ground, head first. I blacked out for a few seconds but really before I was consciously aware again I leaped to my feet and picked up the bike and started pushing the brake handle levers back into position (they had gotten messed up in the fall) and putting the chain back on the sprockets Around this time I became aware that I sort of didn't know who I was or what was going on, aside from the fact that I had just wrecked my bike. By the time I was back on the bike and riding again, it had all come back to me. But it was a really hard blow and it happened right around the same time I slowed down at work (I used to be so fast they had a nickname for me) and my memory got kind of screwed up. It didn't really occur to me until years later that the 2 things might be connected, and by then I couldn't be sure if they really happened at the same time or not. But it sounds like you got it a lot worse than me, and it didn't cause me to start getting morbid or whatever you want to call it - talking about inappropriate things. Ever since then though, especially when I'm falling asleep, I have this weird thing where I can sort of feel a 'dead zone' inside my head on the left side, and for some weird reason when I do I involuntarily visualize something that looks like the end of a fence. Hard to describe - and it isn't the end of a fence, that's just the best I can come up with for trying to explain it. Lol sorry - you sparked off Storytime With Darkmatters! This is reminding me of the bonding scene in Jaws where Hooper and Quint and Cheif Brody compare scars and sing drunken songs until the shark strikes the boat. "Oh yeah? I got that beat. See this?" Hooper points to his chest. The others squint at it but can't see a scar. "(says girl's name, can't remember what it was - I think Maryanne something)... she broke me heart!" Anybody else? Cognitive damage? No?



      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      I'm pretty sure I the place I first heard it referred to as an idea was Peterson as well, I've always believed he's rather good at achieving the task of being able to present and clearly re-express the complicated ideas and subject matter of the philosophers he gives lectures on in a way that makes it easy to digest and make sense of without actually having to really dumb down the content any to make that happen. That's a pretty unique skill I don't really see very often.
      Yes! This is precisely what he excels at. He has absorbed and made sense of it all, and now he can explain it in ways that are easily understandable, and relate it so everyone gets it. If that's not repetitively redundant (or even if it is actually).
      Last edited by Darkmatters; 11-20-2017 at 04:29 PM.

    24. #49
      Diamonds And Rust Achievements:
      Made lots of Friends on DV Populated Wall Referrer Bronze Tagger First Class Vivid Dream Journal 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class
      Darkmatters's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 2009
      Gender
      Location
      Center of the universe
      Posts
      6,317
      Likes
      5314
      DJ Entries
      156
      I think I was too hasty in my replies the other day and I want to go back and qualify or modify some of what I said. Keep in mind I'm no expert on this stuff, in some areas I'm just guessing based on what I've learned so far about Jungian Depth Psychology, and I could be way off.

      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      The individuation process is a huge arc that takes months or years to complete - it can't be equated with a single art project. Maybe a big project, like creating a comic book or something, which also takes months or years and involves growth of the artist and facing many challenges along the way.
      Modification - I don't mean that individual art projects are useless or anything like that - and I overstated it and just left it hanging there. Jung used to encourage his patients to draw or paint their dreams - not realistically (unless that's how they want to do it) but more symbolically - using things like stick figures and simplified symbolic objects or icons. And often they would do a series of these pieces that would overall last over maybe a few years, just whenever they had what they felt was a powerful or relevant dream.

      So this would qualify as 'series painting' - a big project arc like doing a comic book. And by looking at (interpreting) the paintings (or drawings, or sculptures, or dance pieces, or poetry or whatever they choose to do) you can see a progression - as the person either gradually gets better or worse or whichever way they're going. To really do this though, at least in the Jungian sense, the therapist needs to be well learned in world mythology and religions, fairy tales and myths, because often themes from these things turn up in people's dreams, and if you're not familiar with their meaning from the ancient sources it can easily be misinterpreted. Often people will try to interpret everything as if it's from the personal unconscious, but when these more universal images show up it's more archetypal, meaning it's something emerging from the collective unconscious and therefore represented through the kind of imagery I mentioned - religions, fairy tales etc.

      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      Fear of social consequences is more about being afraid to drop the persona - the social mask, and march to your own drum. I don't think that qualifies as shadow material. Of course, keep in mind I'm only a little ways ahead of you in studying this stuff - I don't really know what I'm talking about. But with that caveat in mind, I would say the shadow doesn't really show up until a person has had the courage to take off the mask of the persona and begun to authentically experience their own true self. To continue wearing that mask is to hide behind a sort of collective social construct - to say "It's ok everybody - see, I'm just like you all are and there's nothing different or strange about me". Real creativity doesn't happen when people are being collective, at least not individual creativity.
      On second thought, I do think the shadow can show up even when someone is still behind the mask of the persona, if that person has suffered some kind of trauma or crisis.

      Also to add another good shadow character from movies - what were they called - oh yes, the Ring Wraiths from the Lord of the Rings. Perfect shadow characters because they are cloaked and hooded and you can't even see their faces, plus of course they just radiate menace and evil.
      Last edited by Darkmatters; Yesterday at 11:29 PM.

    Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

    Similar Threads

    1. Carl Jung on the Psyche
      By Lugus in forum Philosophy
      Replies: 1
      Last Post: 03-13-2016, 01:53 AM
    2. Carl Jung
      By keithclark in forum Philosophy
      Replies: 6
      Last Post: 02-14-2011, 10:21 AM
    3. The Pscychological Perspective: Carl Jung on Organized Religion
      By Caprisun in forum Religion/Spirituality
      Replies: 11
      Last Post: 07-02-2010, 04:56 AM
    4. Carl Jung
      By issaiah1332 in forum Philosophy
      Replies: 11
      Last Post: 11-09-2005, 11:05 AM
    5. carl jung...
      By jacobo in forum Philosophy
      Replies: 5
      Last Post: 04-25-2004, 06:04 PM

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •