Thread: Only man is fit to be God.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Yeh, ya FOOLS!! You hear me, you're all FOOLS!!!

.. I'm so bad, spank me Gab - spank me hard!

Take a number : P

*reported for 50 shades of grey fan fiction*

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Natural law says that a murderer can kill you or your loved ones without retribution.

Would you really like to scrap all of man's laws and go all natural?

In the natural world, might makes right. Is that what you want? Chaos instead of order?

Regards
DL

I'm sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with you. And no amount of retribution is gonna bring any deceased loved one back.

Step outside of that little bubble for just a few moments and ponder this : A billion galaxies with a billion star systems each. The order inherent in the natural world that created those galaxies is beyond comprehension. (seriously, dark energy and stuff)

Or consider this: Every organism ever known (earthlings) shares the same origin. We are literally, genetically connected to every other living thing ever known throughout the entire history of earth!! One origin. Not only are we connected to every organism that has come before us, we will forever be connected to every organism that will come after.

DNA is still the most sophisticated programming-------ever. In it, is coded billions of years of information. And evolution, "survival of the fittest", is not about kill or be eaten. Rather, it literally means the ones that continue are the ones that fit their environment the best. It also means that those who are NOT attuned to their environment will eventually die off.

INSANE human beings eventually see each other as the enemy and wage war and kill each other. And many of them, will never pass on their DNA. That's survival of the fittest. Insanity doesn't fit the environment. It is NATURALLY self destructive.

"Survival of the fittest" also means we are FOOLS for treating the environment that supports us like trash. (that too, is a kind of insanity)

Harmony is usually just an abstract idea that humans toss around. But in biology, harmonious systems not only exist, they are actually the most common system in biology. From trillions of cells coordinating together so that you can exist in a body, have a brain, think and contemplate life. What a weird and marvelous thing that you even have an "I" when you are a miniature walking talking earth, of trillions of inhabitants.

The natural order of things, fit to survive, has literally created millions of examples of harmonious systems in biology. To bees and flowers: co-dependent and cooperative species make up the FOUNDATION of entire ecosystems, not predator vs prey. And to credit that same natural order, evolution created us....Were sorta the latest to enter on this stage. We take harmonious systems in biology to the next level. No other ape thinks "I must protect this planet". That natural order of things, evolution, has given us a brain to think on global and even cosmic levels!


(now you can argue that mutations are random and meaningless, but whether or not those mutations FIT their environment is not.)

Anyways, if more people would spend more time contemplating the universe we live in, a galactic community by the billions, if they could take more time to consider our connection to every other life form (literally), then I think people would be less insane.

Less cruel, less hateful, less violent. More thoughtful, more conscious, more humble, more compassionate.

Sure, man's laws are practical and in the grand scheme of things, they too are natural. No, it is not our natural state to hate and kill each other. Rather, man's natural "instinct" is to create communities and be cooperative. In fact, we created words like "law" and "government" after our cooperative nature.

But to call the natural order of things chaos? That statement is detached from reality. That's fake reality, that's youtube reality. That's not nature. The order in nature is so grand and cosmic its still beyond our comprehension.

Originally Posted by DeviantThinker

So are you atheist or Christian? While I am to atheism what deanstar is to Christianity

I am fundamentalist Christian. I believe the KJV bible as a standard and I believe the gospel and scriptures 100%. I'm a young earth creationist as a result and I seek to follow everything Jesus commanded.

Taken from another thread:

Originally Posted by DeviantThinker

Hi, I can perhaps call myself a gnostic atheist in that while I do believe that it is merely improbable for an intelligence creating our universe, it has been categorically demonstrated that the theistic god is fictitious. This is because while the notion of a intelligent creator is dealing with the unknown, much of the bible deals with the known and hence can be empirically investigated. Based on many of the false facts that the bible dispels in the book of genesis alone, I think it is safe to reject the Christian (and Islamic and Jewish) god.

I often hear apologetics claim that those passages are supposed to be metaphorical and allegories, not to be taken literally. In fact some even claim that atheists who use these passages as evidence against Christianity are as bad as the fundamentalists in taking biblical passages literally. However, this is simply a dishonest interpretation of the texts. It is clear from history that these passages were intended to be literal cosmologies and were not meant to be taken in a purely metaphorical context. In fact, the Christian apologetics' attitude would have been regarded as downright heretical, and rightly so. Religion was fully intended to be an explanation of our universe and this recent meme of religion explaining the why and science the how is simply an attempt to limit the defeat that religion has faced.

So you and I do not necessarily dispute the fundamentalist interpretation of the bible, it's just that you conclude that it is the truth and I conclude that it must be false. That is why I compared myself with you since I do not merely doubt the existence of a theistic god but feel certainty over it. Kind of like a fundamentalist atheist.

If nothing else, my application of the term "gnostic" is a lot more clear than the OP.

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Yet you vote for a political ruler who is a man.

Regards
DL

Leader is a more appropriate term, especially since we're not giving him omnipotence and complete theocratic rule. Incidentally, this coming election is the first time I'll be able to vote, so your criticism holds no water there, either.
Finally, putting "regards, DL" at the end of every reply makes you seem excessively arrogant and a bit childish. You'd get much the same effect if you make it part of your sig.

Originally Posted by DeviantThinker

Taken from another thread:


So you and I do not necessarily dispute the fundamentalist interpretation of the bible, it's just that you conclude that it is the truth and I conclude that it must be false. That is why I compared myself with you since I do not merely doubt the existence of a theistic god but feel certainty over it. Kind of like a fundamentalist atheist.

If nothing else, my application of the term "gnostic" is a lot more clear than the OP.

though your doubt is not based on factual stuff, cause the bible as litrature is most truthworthy litrature that is historically backed by historians and thousands of manuscripts, all the artifacts like noahs boat, ark of covenant, and geology of the global flood points to everything in the bible as true, and I mean it explains the evil in the world and it explains not only history but future. No other work of litrature has ever done this. We can be assured Jesus was real and that he lived the way witnessed. So I think you either havn't thought things through, you have been fooled, or that you are not willing to accept the reality of things. Bible is full of things like poetry, metaphors, history, prophecy, and then instruction too. It's not a particular format like a scientific paper, it doesn't logically go through evidence for God. It just says what God has done and what he will do, and his relationship to Man. That is conveyed through many different ways, not just through logic or evidence.

We'll have that particular debate at a different time in a different thread, Mr. Star.

Regards
SPI (Super Pompous Initials)

I hate religion, a lot. Despite what it could be it simply isn't what it is. But, to give at least the Abramhamic religions credit, the people that claim to be true believers are really not, quite like with everything else. Look at the feminist movement. The ultra radicals that are divisive, derisive, and flat out hateful and angry claim to be the real feminists, while completely bring shame to and tarnishing the movement they have hijacked's true beginnings and goals. The Abrahamic religions may include a few of the archaic rituals in it that used to be common place during the time of their conception, but true Christians, Catholics, and Muslims do not believe in the same ideals or conduct themselves anything like the fundamentalist and radicals do, just like in the feminist movement. It corrupts absolutely and turns everything that these religions truly believe in into a stinking cesspit, spreading its mold and filth as far and wide as it possibly can. True believers want the same thing that the moral gnostics and atheists want. They want to live in peace with their neighbors in a word free from evil, where they can trust and love their neighbors, have happy lives and experience the joys and trials of raising children in a world otherwise dominated completely by sin and immoral socialites with self-promoting agendas. There are just as many of these fundamentalist and immoral atheists and agnostics as their are their theistic counterparts. In fact, there are more because religion is beginning to die out.

As I've already mentioned, sinful, immoral people corrupt these institutions. There is no denying that. But while religion is already dying out, it is safe to say (at least in Europe and America) that those corrupt individuals seeking to gain power over the powers that be really have less and less of a foothold over the common folk and the law every day. It is far more important, in my eyes, to turn our attention, to those individuals that are already in power and seeking to gain a larger following in the government. These people directly control the direction of our nation states and our quality of life, and they are working very, very hard every single day to increase the power at their disposal. They sling the most insults and worry against institutionalized religions and other immoral institutions that seek to gain power in order to distract their followers into fighting a pointless war. A war that has no winner but them, the people cannot win because they are fighting all the wrong battles. They are killing each other instead of getting together and fighting against those who would like nothing more than to see us tear each other apart while they sit comfy in their little garden of Eden they have created for themselves. We are doing their dirty work and we are stupid enough to not only like doing it but believe that we are doing the right thing.

I would like to appeal to those that truly want peace, justice, and harmony in the world. Quit fighting these pointless battles, quit creating all these stupid fucking wars that put devilish grins on the faces of the monsters hiding under our beds and in our closets. The only true monsters that exist in this world of ours, our fellow man that would cry, "we must have a larger stick if we wish to live in peace!" "We must eliminate these outsiders, these nonbelievers, these fellow human beings of ours that do not eat the same things we do or tell the same fairy tales that we do and do not want to live our life styles!"

The people that actively seek violence and destruction of other human beings, no matter the reason, these are the people that we need to worry about. I am not suggesting by any means we kill them or even have them live the rest of their days in prisons that cause them to feel further internal anguish. I am not suggesting we hurt anybody else. What I am suggesting is to not let these people control us anymore. Do not let these people take office. Do not let them guide us toward this downward spiraling path of nuclear desolation. Tell them no, tell them that we do not condone their methods any longer. Make them try and realize what they are and who they have become. If they cannot adapt, if they can't change for the better, then they will die never knowing what it is like to love, to be selfless, to be brave and not just cower behind our fears and let them control our every thought and feeling. People like that have let parasites leech onto their spines and worms burrow deep in their brains. They already suffer enough, if they want to continue to suffer, then that is their choice as a human with free will, but there is no reason to let them make us suffer too. Misery does enjoy company, it is the only way it can't simply vanish, simply wink out of existence, and it really doesn't want to die. At the rate we are going, the way we allow ourselves to be manipulated, we are never going to make it off this planet. We can kiss a life among the stars, to ascend beyond our worldly origins and continue to survive as a species good bye. If we can't rise above it, then we have made our choice and we are doomed to a fate of extinction, and honestly right now with how we behave, I don't see any problem with that. If anything I hope it happens, because if we ever did make it into space and find brothers out there, alien life, we will not be the benevolent alien race we wish would stumble upon our existence, should aliens one day actually find us. We would be the aliens that invade other worlds, the conquerors, the antithesis to the beauty that is life. I don't wish that upon anybody, human or otherwise.

I am a person without a conscience. I am capable of committing whatever acts I choose. I could be evil, I could manipulate others into doing wrong. I could raise an army to do my dirty work for me, and spread the ideals and laws that keep my kind in power, and beat down my fellow man that even dreams of rebelling. I could crush their spirits, make them believe this is truly a world of injustice and without hope. I could do it all, and in a lot of ways I want to because I am always that angry and vindictive by my very nature. But I am a being of freewill. I have values, integrity, and honor, even though I know just how pointless these concepts are in a chaotic violent world that is full of disaster. I have the ability to choose what I do and what I believe. And knowing full well how pointless this all is, I still choose to be this way, because that is what it truly is to call yourself a man. I seek to be the order that comes out of a chaotic universe, a force so unnatural that it is nearly divine. I seek to express myself with art, to try and communicate my feelings and experiences with others in ways beyond what words are capable of describing. I try and understand why people do what they do, where they have been and where they plan to go, see their motivations and pick them apart. I try and spread the word of choosing humanity over monstrosity because I know that if we can actually pull ourselves out of the gutter we actually stand a chance. We might well have hope to make something of ourselves, but only if we all realize that in life, we choose everything we feel and do. Blaming others for our problems (no offense Deanstar but right now you are the most recent example of this) does not lead to us rising above, it leads to hate. Hatred of "evil" is not just. Labels are just one of the ways we dress a wolf up in sheep's clothing. You cannot hate without letting others decide your fate, make your decisions for you. If you willingly throw away your free will, no matter the cause, you, like history, are doomed to make the same mistakes and go in circles. The only way to keep from deviating from a straight path is to choose to quit going in a circle and actually walk forward. If what others do is really the issue here then why is it that you are the one that loses? Why are you the one that is miserable, the one who hates?

That is all, end rant.

Originally Posted by DeviantThinker

So are you atheist or Christian? While I am to atheism what deanstar is to Christianity, I find you calling yourself a Christian in even the most convoluted sense to be extremely intellectually dishonest. Honestly, your viewpoint would not bear out even in the most adventurous of interpretations of the bible and that is an achievement.

Also, you are aware that the Gnostic sect would have considered your elevation of man over God as heretical as well, right? Most of the Gnostics and Hermetics viewed man's role as a partnership as opposed to the more subservient role in mainstream Christianity. However, they never intended the reverse, that of God's position being subservient to man!

Seriously, define to me what the hell a "Gnostic Christian" even is. The term Universalist is almost worthless since that could encompass almost every belief under the sun, rather fittingly for the name.

You know little of Gnostic Christianity it seems. That is not a slight as we are an emerging religion and few know what we are about.

We do not believe as most do and definitely not like Christians do. They are mostly literalists and we see all the Gods as myths and man as the highest form of life that there can be.

We believe in a certain type of Jesus. The Jesus that the church never teaches about that show him saying that there is no God other than man. Let me give you this old O.P. and a link to our general beliefs but please remember that being as we are re-emerging and evolving, some views will likely need explanation.

Basic Beliefs of a True Gnostic

------------------------------

Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.

I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.

This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians, --- as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.

This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.

Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube

1A Hidden Meanings In Bible - YouTube

Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.

Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by juroara

I'm sorry, but I fundamentally disagree with you. And no amount of retribution is gonna bring any deceased loved one back.
.

Correct. But retribution is not given to bring anyone back.

It is to insure that the bastard does not kill your neighbor as well later.

Seems you only think of yourself though. Think demographically and get out of the box you accuse me of being in.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Deanstar

I am fundamentalist Christian. I believe the KJV bible as a standard and I believe the gospel and scriptures 100%. I'm a young earth creationist as a result and I seek to follow everything Jesus commanded.

Have you gone inside of yourself? No you have not or you would not write as foolishly as you do.

You seek God in a book while Jesus tells you to go inside. No wonder your apologetics are so poor.

Do you even know what Jesus was talking of in this.




Do you know what he is telling you with these?

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by splodeymissile

Leader is a more appropriate term, especially since we're not giving him omnipotence and complete theocratic rule. Incidentally, this coming election is the first time I'll be able to vote, so your criticism holds no water there, either.
Finally, putting "regards, DL" at the end of every reply makes you seem excessively arrogant and a bit childish. You'd get much the same effect if you make it part of your sig.

Semantics. Oh well. You are young and have time to grow up.

Remember child when you think of your last

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Deanstar

In the day of the Lord, I want to see what happens to you when you say that to his face....I am waiting for that day very much.

I know this is an older post in the topic, but I've just got to ask. What makes you think God would let you into heaven if you have an attitude like that? You really have that much malice for your fellow man? As being just a man, it is not your job to cast damning judgment on somebody, God will do that when the day comes. As a human, you must treat your neighbors as you would have your neighbors treat you. It isn't your place to be a cocky pretentious asshole according to your religion because you are no better than he is, because we are all born sinners in this world. Perhaps you should learn that now so that if your religion by some stretch of the imagination turns out to be right, you don't wind up in hell. Why do I say this? Because as a human being, despite my agnosticism and the apparent immorality that must surely then entail (lol), I actually agree and do not think it is my place to treat you poorly as a human being. I don't wish eternal damnation upon anyone, even evil individuals. It isn't my place to do so.

Originally Posted by snoop

I know this is an older post in the topic, but I've just got to ask. What makes you think God would let you into heaven if you have an attitude like that? You really have that much malice for your fellow man? As being just a man, it is not your job to cast damning judgment on somebody, God will do that when the day comes. As a human, you must treat your neighbors as you would have your neighbors treat you. It isn't your place to be a cocky pretentious asshole according to your religion because you are no better than he is, because we are all born sinners in this world. Perhaps you should learn that now so that if your religion by some stretch of the imagination turns out to be right, you don't wind up in hell. Why do I say this? Because as a human being, despite my agnosticism and the apparent immorality that must surely then entail (lol), I actually agree and do not think it is my place to treat you poorly as a human being. I don't wish eternal damnation upon anyone, even evil individuals. It isn't my place to do so.

I was speaking collectively in that anyone that does blatantly insult or mock God. I am waiting for the day when he avenge's that type of chornic an serve disbelief. It's not a virtue to not believe in God. The malice and accusations really come from the people who arn't believing. That's the point. You for instance throw a claim at me that I blame others instead of taking responsibility but that's not true. I see myself as having to live up to the standards I believe in. What have you got? You don't have any solid standards that come from any real authority and the only hope you have is in yourself? I don't judge who is going to hell or not, but I am promised certain things that I believe in. One of those things is if I do my best and repent, and believe as I do, that eternal life is a gift of grace.

Originally Posted by Gnostic

You know little of Gnostic Christianity it seems. That is not a slight as we are an emerging religion and few know what we are about.

We do not believe as most do and definitely not like Christians do. They are mostly literalists and we see all the Gods as myths and man as the highest form of life that there can be.

We believe in a certain type of Jesus. The Jesus that the church never teaches about that show him saying that there is no God other than man. Let me give you this old O.P. and a link to our general beliefs but please remember that being as we are re-emerging and evolving, some views will likely need explanation.

Basic Beliefs of a True Gnostic

------------------------------

Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.

I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.

This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians, --- as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.

This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.

Alan Watts - On The Book of Eli - YouTube

1A Hidden Meanings In Bible - YouTube

Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.

Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?

Regards
DL

Well thanks for clarifying your beliefs. I honestly don't know what to make of them. While I am against them based on epistemological grounds (the truth value is dubious), I have no real moral issue with your beliefs and based on a purely literary context, your critique of the bible hits home. I have always felt the idea of Jesus's arbitrary sacrifice to be morally repugnant.

Anyway, I don't think I have anything of further value to share in this forum. I will be off.

P.S. For a certain Mr Star who will be seething at this point, I say arbitrary since God never needed to send his son to suffer. He could have forgiven the sins of humanity out of his own accord but rather than do so, he allowed Jesus to go through an incredibly painful death and his earthy relatives had to suffer from watching him die slowly too.

No, the fact that this was all for humanity's sake is not an argument. God did not need to do that, he had a choice to freely absolve humanity of it's sins or put his only son through agony and he freely chose the choice that lead to more suffering.

Originally Posted by DeviantThinker

P.S. For a certain Mr Star who will be seething at this point, I say arbitrary since God never needed to send his son to suffer. He could have forgiven the sins of humanity out of his own accord but rather than do so, he allowed Jesus to go through an incredibly painful death and his earthy relatives had to suffer from watching him die slowly too.

No, the fact that this was all for humanity's sake is not an argument. God did not need to do that, he had a choice to freely absolve humanity of it's sins or put his only son through agony and he freely chose the choice that lead to more suffering.

You have a really bad attitude and since everyone has done wrong you can't just get rid of wrongdoing based on nothing. It is a legal thing that had to be acomplished. You do not understand the sacrifice of Jesus, but you still make value judgments that are very disrespectful about it. I'm not 'seething' as I know it has taken a lot of brainwashing in society for you to get to this level of delusion and that tou have been a willing acomplice in your own backwards sort of deception that you imagine is righteousness. Ofcourse there is nothing I can say that has the power of myself to free you. But I should stand up for what is right and declare that you are wrong about this. The glory does belong to Jesus Christ and it wasn't an immoral act, if was an act of service. It is the potential for you to become innocent by his blood. That's not just some meaningless thing.

Originally Posted by snoop

I know this is an older post in the topic, but I've just got to ask. What makes you think God would let you into heaven if you have an attitude like that? You really have that much malice for your fellow man? As being just a man, it is not your job to cast damning judgment on somebody, God will do that when the day comes. As a human, you must treat your neighbors as you would have your neighbors treat you. It isn't your place to be a cocky pretentious asshole according to your religion because you are no better than he is, because we are all born sinners in this world. Perhaps you should learn that now so that if your religion by some stretch of the imagination turns out to be right, you don't wind up in hell. Why do I say this? Because as a human being, despite my agnosticism and the apparent immorality that must surely then entail (lol), I actually agree and do not think it is my place to treat you poorly as a human being. I don't wish eternal damnation upon anyone, even evil individuals. It isn't my place to do so.

Romans 12:21
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

You are evil to him and instead of following scriptures, he has let himself be overcome by what he sees as evil.

Then again, his God is supposed to follow that good advice as well but he must think hell is good because he plans to send the vast majority of us there.

Even God does not follow scriptures.

Like most Christians and their God, our friend loves to hate. You can see it in his writing.

He is doing our sides work for us.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Deanstar

You have a really bad attitude and since everyone has done wrong you can't just get rid of wrongdoing based on nothing. It is a legal thing that had to be accomplished. You do not understand the sacrifice of Jesus, but you still make value judgements that are very disrespectful about it. I'm not 'seething' as I know it has taken a lot of brainwashing in society for you to get to this level of delusion and that you have been a willing accomplice in your own backwards sort of deception that you imagine is righteousness. Of course there is nothing I can say that has the power of myself to free you. But I should stand up for what is right and declare that you are wrong about this. The glory does belong to Jesus Christ and it wasn't an immoral act, if was an act of service. It is the potential for you to become innocent by his blood. That's not just some meaningless thing.

Well I will have to just agree to disagree (something which I feel free to do since we clearly don't share the same priors).
I will say this much that claiming that I am brainwashed is a completely vacuous comment to make. I could claim the same of you and it would make no difference.
Remember in an earlier thread where we discussed the blurred line between preaching and discourse. Well care to explain to me what's the hard set difference between persuasion and brainwashing? In fact, what if you were brainwashed to believe in something that was true? Would the fact that you were brainwashed to believe that thing make it any less true?

I'm not asking for an answer from you, just giving you some food for thought. Anyway, I am contradicting myself when I said I had nothing left to say in this thread. See ya.

Originally Posted by Deanstar

I was speaking collectively in that anyone that does blatantly insult or mock God. I am waiting for the day when he avenge's that type of chornic an serve disbelief. It's not a virtue to not believe in God. The malice and accusations really come from the people who arn't believing. That's the point. You for instance throw a claim at me that I blame others instead of taking responsibility but that's not true. I see myself as having to live up to the standards I believe in. What have you got? You don't have any solid standards that come from any real authority and the only hope you have is in yourself? I don't judge who is going to hell or not, but I am promised certain things that I believe in. One of those things is if I do my best and repent, and believe as I do, that eternal life is a gift of grace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx7...ature=youtu.be

What a game for your God to play!
Create a place for eternal bliss as well as a place for eternal suffering or death.
Then create beings whom he loves dearly and watches over.
And in the end, decide which to consider "trash" and "throw away" into the place for eternal suffering or death and which to cling to and love in the place for eternal bliss.
Even man, with all his faults, is greater and more responsible.

Can you not find a God who has morals?

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by DeviantThinker

Well thanks for clarifying your beliefs. I honestly don't know what to make of them. While I am against them based on epistemological grounds (the truth value is dubious), I have no real moral issue with your beliefs and based on a purely literary context, your critique of the bible hits home. I have always felt the idea of Jesus's arbitrary sacrifice to be morally repugnant.

Anyway, I don't think I have anything of further value to share in this forum. I will be off.

P.S. For a certain Mr Star who will be seething at this point, I say arbitrary since God never needed to send his son to suffer. He could have forgiven the sins of humanity out of his own accord but rather than do so, he allowed Jesus to go through an incredibly painful death and his earthy relatives had to suffer from watching him die slowly too.

No, the fact that this was all for humanity's sake is not an argument. God did not need to do that, he had a choice to freely absolve humanity of it's sins or put his only son through agony and he freely chose the choice that lead to more suffering.

True. And that is scripture. These say or prove your words that God had a better way. Only Christians who love to hate will follow the other thinking and try to profit from the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty.

They do not care about morals and ethics. As our friend stated, he has a promise and that is all he cares about and would and has sold his soul to Satan to try to get his free ride into heaven.

Don't leave as you are good at making this one say good things for our side.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Regards
DL

Originally Posted by Gnostic

Semantics. Oh well. You are young and have time to grow up

I was not aware that prime minister and emperor were synonymous with each other. Silly me.

Remember child when you think of your last

My last what? And, deriding me as a child, besides being woefully incorrect, confirms your utter arrogance.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

You must fall in the latter category, what with deriding God and insulting me.

@Gnostic, I'm really fascinated by what you've been revealing about gnostic religion. It seems to be far and away the most common-sense, straightforward, and intelligent take on religion I could imagine, without any of the silly stories or easily falsifiable proclamations that trip up other religions. None of the double standard morality. A religion that can be taken seriously in the modern world, where science unfortunately has eviscerated any other type of religion, causing a great deal of cognitive dissonance among the followers and spurring Nietzsche's declaration that God is dead. One thing you haven't covered is what God is, does or did. Though I suspect that's unfathomable, as it probably should be in any religion. Do Gnostics believe God created the universe? Do they believe in any kind of afterlife? Or are these also unfathomable mysteries?

The main philosophy of Gnostic is that your body is a prison that the material world is a trap! They reason that the fall from grace is not due to disobeying God, but they assume that it's just a clumsy God for either being evil or just not getting it right, and that it's their job to fix everything, and become the God that saves the day themself. They in no way aknowledge the scriptures properly, and if they do, they get it wrong and distort it to their own theology. Just an anti-christ religion. Simple as that.

I'm really not interested in your take on it. If your understanding of evolution is any gauge, you've got everything completely wrong.

Originally Posted by Deanstar

I am fundamentalist Christian. I believe the KJV bible as a standard and I believe the gospel and scriptures 100%. I'm a young earth creationist as a result and I seek to follow everything Jesus commanded.

Despite your shortcomings (or what I see as shortcomings, anyway) I do believe that conviction is a good quality to have. Hypocrisy bugs the shit out of me, so if nothing else I can say at least you believe something and you don't try to eat your cake and have it to. I don't agree at all with you but that's okay really. Just don't try to use your beliefs to go killing people or some such trite bollocks like that and I can live with that.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I'm really not interested in your take on it. If your understanding of evolution is any gauge, you've got everything completely wrong.

well you like to follow all the anti-christ religions, that's why you are so interested. And ofcourse, a big evolution fan lol.

I think it's hypocritical that he chooses that there's one true religion and it's his, and belittle other's beliefs.