Thread: Atheists do you wish you could beleive in god?

Tell me how not working on the sabbath (Sunday for Christians) acts as social control?

And Christianity says that there should be no sex before marriage, not sex then marry.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Tell me how not working on the sabbath (Sunday for Christians) acts as social control?

And Christianity says that there should be no sex before marriage, not sex then marry.

Well i guess it is a control if it commands you on a certain day you have to go to a temple or a church, or thats "sinning".

Well I know christianity says marry then sex but i bet if you have sex with a girl or get her pregnat and you tell a reverend or a parent they will say
"billy bob you sinning, you better marry her or you'll make god angry and you'll go to hell"

See thats control. In Islam and Judaism for whatever reason they say
"you can't eat pork". See thats a form of social control.

In Islamic and Jewish circles it is taboo to eat Pork.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Well i guess it is a control if it commands you on a certain day you have to go to a temple or a church, or thats "sinning".

No you don't understand. Its an old testament rule. People shouldn't work on the Sabbath, even if they have gone to church. Why? How is this social control?

"Shouldn't", "Can't","Don't","Won't" -

All of those are control words. If something tells you you Shouldn't do something, thats control. If they say you Can't do something, thats control. Same with the rest.

Originally Posted by psychology student

No you don't understand. Its an old testament rule. People shouldn't work on the Sabbath, even if they have gone to church. Why? How is this social control?

Im no relegion expert but on the sabbath(friday for jews?,sunday for christians) you are compelled to go to a temple or church right? For the "good of your soul"

Anyway you seem to be dodging around my examples and arguments.

Are you saying there is no so social control in Christianity?

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Im no relegion expert but on the sabbath(friday for jews?,sunday for christians) you are compelled to go to a temple or church right? For the "good of your soul"

Anyway you seem to be dodging around my examples and arguments.

Are you saying there is no so social control in Christianity?

No you avoiding mine. Why should someone not work on the Sabbath, independent of whether they have gone to church or not. Sounds entirley religious to me, not intended for social control.

And Christianity may have been used for social control according to some interpretations but it was never intended to be used as such.

Originally Posted by The Tao

"Shouldn't", "Can't","Don't","Won't" -

All of those are control words. If something tells you you Shouldn't do something, thats control. If they say you Can't do something, thats control. Same with the rest.

Right words control actions then? No its religious advice.

That "Advice" is dictated in such a way that it makes people fear doing wrong because they wonder "What will happen if I don't take the advice? Given that most people who do wrong become sinners, then will this make me a sinner? I should do good then!"

Its just fear tactics.

Originally Posted by The Tao

That "Advice" is dictated in such a way that it makes people fear doing wrong because they wonder "What will happen if I don't take the advice? Given that most people who do wrong become sinners, then will this make me a sinner? I should do good then!"

Its just fear tactics.

really?

Just because you say that in the form of a question doesn't mean its not true.

Jesus did his stuff in order to maintain social control?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Christianity, definitely not. But I do wish I could believe in a God who is totally good and a religion where everybody goes to Heaven. That vicious God and Hell stuff completely ruines Christianity for me.

So....Spirituality. Although it's not a religion, it's a different approach to a way of life.

I'm glad I'm no longer a Xian, I can live my life with out The Sword of Damocles hanging over my head and the fear that one wrong act could send me to hell forever... ignorance(in this sense) isn't really bliss, it's living in constant fear of Supernatural Retaliation.

Originally Posted by Elis D.

I'm glad I'm no longer a Xian, I can live my life with out The Sword of Damocles hanging over my head and the fear that one wrong act could send me to hell forever... ignorance(in this sense) isn't really bliss, it's living in constant fear of Supernatural Retaliation.

Thats not a valid portrayal of Christianity, God punishing those who accidentally slip up. There is something called forgiveness.

Originally Posted by psychology student

No you avoiding mine. Why should someone not work on the Sabbath, independent of whether they have gone to church or not. Sounds entirley religious to me, not intended for social control.

And Christianity may have been used for social control according to some interpretations but it was never intended to be used as such.

Im not saying everything in the bible is used for social control but alot of the stuff is, like alot of the examples i gave you.

And yes christianity was intended for social control. A relegion dictates the way you have to live your life, thats social control. Does anyone agree with me here?

i gave you plenty of valid examples, now tell me how thats not social control?

And you say christianity wasn't intended for social control, does that mean you accept the fact that their is social control in christianity?

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Im not saying everything in the bible is used for social control but alot of the stuff is, like alot of the examples i gave you.

And yes christianity was intended for social control. A relegion dictates the way you live your life, thats social control. Does anyone agree with me here?

i gave you plenty of valid examples, now tell me how thats not social control?

Social control is achieving order by way of propaganda or scaremongering in the context we are using it. The bible may have been interpreted by some as being used for social control, but it was not intended by the authors to do so.

Originally Posted by psychology student

Thats not a valid portrayal of Christianity, God punishing those who accidentally slip up. There is something called forgiveness.

You are only forgiven if you mean it, you can't ask for forgiveness and do it again, ask for forgiveness then do it again, and keep repeating these 2 things. Only if you're truely sorry are you forgiven from your sins, eitherwise you're just scared about what might happen but don't care because you live in the now and think asking forgiveness will make you forgiven. It's like real life, your parents will forgive you if you're truely sorry, not if you keep saying sorry and keep repeating what you're doing saying sorry after everytime. Same goes for relationships.

It will be like...

WhOOhOO i killed someone....oh great must tell god "sorry", then you tell god you're sorry for killing, only to kill again, come back and say sorry for killing and repeat

Originally Posted by psychology student

Social control is achieving order by way of propaganda or scaremongering in the context we are using it. The bible may have been interpreted by some as being used for social control, but it was not intended by the authors to do so.

Social Control is a means to control ones behaviour by making something socially unacceptable. Take this example. Say you live in a village and you like to walk around naked, you're a nudist. Generally in most towns nudism in public is frowned upon right. Well socially that would be frowned upon and thus you would eventually pick up some trousers and suspenders like everybody else by social pressure. I know my theory isn't that good but would someoen in here like to come up with a better one?(Seriously)

On the flip side in a Nudist colony wearing clothes is generally frowned upon and not really socially acceptable.

I know my examples don't fit relegion like a glove exactly but thats the best i could come up with.

Anyway Propaganda and ScareMongering is a big part of Christianity. "you will go to hell for this, if you don't do that". yadiyada a big part of indoctirnation into christianity is fearmongering, Ie godfearing."

Just ask some christians and ex christians on here,people have and are being subjected to this all the time.

Usually as children as a mechanism to keep them in line.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

Social Control is a means to control ones behaviour by making something socially unacceptable. Take this example. Say you live in a village and you like to walk around naked, you're a nudist. Generally in most towns nudism in public is frowned upon right. Well socially that would be frowned upon and thus you would eventually pick up some trousers and suspenders like everybody else by social pressure. I know my theory isn't that good but would someoen in here like to come up with a better one?(Seriously)

On the flip side in a Nudist colony wearing clothes is generally frowned upon and not really socially acceptable.

I know my examples don't fit relegion like a glove exactly but thats the best i could come up with.

Anyway Propaganda and ScareMongering is a big part of Christianity. "you will go to hell for this, if you don't do that". yadiyada a big part of indoctirnation into christianity is fearmongering, Ie godfearing."

Just ask some christians and ex christians on here,people have and are being subjected to this all the time.

Usually as children as a mechanism to keep them in line.

i think your getting it mixed up a little. When your mom told you when you were a little kid, not to do something, was it to control you? In her ultimate scheme of things, do you think that all she wanted to do was make you her bitch? no, she wanted the best for you and made decisions for you so that you wouldn't become messed up or get into trouble. What happened when you disobeyed? you probably got into trouble not only with your mom, but with other things as well. She knows better, and she only did it because she loved you.

Now, from a christian view point, God knows better than us and only tells us to do things because he loves us. He didn't create sin, and he doesn't want anyone to go to hell, nor does he send anyone to hell. I think people underestimate the power of satan. Satan and God are at war here, God is going to loose some, and Satan is going to win some. anyways, He wants to get us away from satan, and by doing these rules and commandments, he keeps us safe from Satan.

The way you talk sounds like you wouldn't even want "the law" or police men, because its only a way of social controll, when in actuallity its to keep you safe.

Originally Posted by Dewitback

Now, from a christian view point, God knows better than us and only tells us to do things because he loves us. He didn't create sin, and he doesn't want anyone to go to hell, nor does he send anyone to hell. I think people underestimate the power of satan. Satan and God are at war here, God is going to loose some, and Satan is going to win some. anyways, He wants to get us away from satan, and by doing these rules and commandments, he keeps us safe from Satan.

THIS MAKES NO SENSE!!!!
Satan is supposedly not a God, but God can't control him?
What's that about?
If Satan is "a fallen angel" then why doesn't God just say "Fuck you Lucifer" and destroy him?
If he can't than he is not all powerful, and if he chooses not to then he is not all-caring or benevolent and doesn't deserve our worship in the first place.
And why does Satan have the ability to alter humanity's basic programming? Because "god didn't cause sin, Satan did", well then Satan is more powerful(or at least as powerful as God), and then should deserve some form of adoration, as he is a (demi)God.


I've asked this question to at least 4(probably more) different people since being here and each one has dodged it, ignored it or "Mysterious Ways" was the only answer.

Originally Posted by Elis D.

THIS MAKES NO SENSE!!!!
Satan is supposedly not a God, but God can't control him?
What's that about?
If Satan is "a fallen angel" then why doesn't God just say "Fuck you Lucifer" and destroy him?
If he can't than he is not all powerful, and if he chooses not to then he is not all-caring or benevolent and doesn't deserve our worship in the first place.
And why does Satan have the ability to alter humanity's basic programming? Because "god didn't cause sin, Satan did", well then Satan is more powerful(or at least as powerful as God), and then should deserve some form of adoration, as he is a (demi)God.


I've asked this question to at least 4(probably more) different people since being here and each one has dodged it, ignored it or "Mysterious Ways" was the only answer.

Only God knows... lol, just kidding.

You know, sometimes i wonder too why can't God just have made us all these glorious entities that felt happiness forever and ever, instead of putting us on this crappy earth first. i mean, if he really loved us then wouldn't he want everyone to be saved? and to save everyone, shouldn't he show himself to people so that they would believe him? why didn't he destroy Satan in the first place? I ask a lot of the same questions you ask. and you inspired me to look them up for my own curiosity.

so, one of my answers to this question would be, if God vanished Lucifer's existance right after he had fallen, then we wouldn't really have free choice would we? Meaning, if lucifer was dissipated into nothingness after he chose not to follow God, shoudln't we also the second we decide not to? God wants us to have free will and a choice, and that must mean heavenly beings like lucifer and angels should have it as well.

some i found online, "1. Why didn't God kill the devil when he first sinned and prevented sin from entering this world? "God is love." 1John 4:8. (Note: The government of God is based on love. If God had destroyed Satan immediately heavenly beings would have served Him through fear. Fee moral agents were given time to judge the nature of Satan's rebellion. Read Hebrews 2:14 and 1John 3:8.) (Note: Christ's life and death exposed Satan's true nature and the results of sin. Thus in the proper time God will be able to destroy Satan and sin with the consent of the universe.)

2. Why doesn't God kill the devil now? "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly." Romans 16:20. (Note: Paul is here referring to the second coming of Christ. Since Christ has not yet returned this is the reason God doesn't kill Satan now. God is permitting Satan to run his course. Furthermore, the destruction of the devil will not take place until everyone has had the opportunity to choose to accept Christ and live forever.)"

all in all I think its about choices and free will. God or Satan does not force us to do stuff like puppets. If there is sin in the world, is it not our fault in a way? Dont we make the decision to lie, kill, rape, cheat, and all those other things?

well i hope you find some of these answers interesting. I'm not asking you to believe it, but its what i can show you for your question. let me kno what u think

Originally Posted by The Tao

The Churches answer.... And where did your church get this information?

Quite tyrannical behavior do you not think? All humans before Jesus came were sent to hell. So God sent ALL of is children to Hell before 2000 years ago, so he obviously does care about virtue or any positive human traits, he just sends everyone to suffer because he has not bothered to go down himself or sent a son earlier on, to educate his children on how to improve themselves and avoid a terrible fate. If God were mortal, child services would take his kids away. After all if one burns their child with cigarettes every day and shouts at them calling them a stupid idiot, yet does not tell their child how they could behave to avoid being tortured, they are rather sadistic.

This along with a Tri-part personality, where one part, Jesus, claims to be one with God and then also not like his father, leads me to conclude that the being "God". Suffers from the following conditions:

1. Paranoid Schizophrenia/ Multiple personality syndrome

2. Extremely sadistic personality, some kind of personality disorder which brings lack of empty and a joy from committing cruel acts.

3. Along with multiple personality also a split personality or at least extreme emotional changes. One minute supposedly loving, then next burning children.

4. ADHD ( attention deficit hyperactivity disorder). He cannot cope with even one human not paying 100% of their attention to him and bowing to him. If they do not he burns them, he also often causes natural disasters to punish them and also the innocent.( assuming you believe God causes bad events, many say God causes miracles, surely to make that statement have any sense, God must also cause the bad things, say a child accidentally being hit by a car, an " anti-miracle", if you wish to call it that)


As i am not a psychologist i don't know of other similar conditions, but i believe they would be in the tens.

You are a psychology student, let us judge God as we would each other. as Jesus tells us to love him as we would each other. If we take God, as people eventually took Hitler, of his pedestal of unquestionable believe. How would you diagnose a human if he acted as the Biblical God does. DO we say he has diminished capacity because he is clearly unstable and insane or is murder still wrong and we charge him as being a genocidal maniac.

Religion is extremely protective of itself. It is designed to infiltrate into every aspect of people's lives, and to be passed on from generation to generation. Its arguments are so forceful, and the threatened consequences of going against its tenants are so great, that it takes over ones reason and shuts his mind to any possible doubt.

Let's look at some of the specific tools Christianity uses to perpetuate itself.

Belief is a matter of life and death
Eternal life and death moreover. Follow one path and you will be in heaven forever. Follow any other and you will burn and suffer forever.

Your belief must be absolute
You must believe in the face of any doubt whatsoever. Anything that offers evidence against biblical teachings is either a mistake or a lie. It is the devil tempting you.

You must spread the message
Convert anyone you can. Have as many children as you can and raise them as Christians as well.

These are the three real commandments, and they are present in some form or another in every religion on Earth. Any other commandment serves only to prop up these three commandments, or is necessarily secondary to them. That's not to say that the message of loving your neighbor as opposed to killing them is not a good one. Nor that there aren't some good lessons to be learned in a few of the Biblical stories.

But it's all about the numbers. An effective religion is designed to grow in a given population, immersing itself in families and communities. It grabs hold of lives and is very hard to shake. Those who manage to shake it usually feel an overwhelming sense of freedom.

Originally Posted by cuddleyperson

1. Paranoid Schizophrenia/ Multiple personality syndrome

Now, lets get rid of the common misconception that schizophrenia refers to multiple independent personalities.

Its greek derivation is
Schizein: split
Phren: Mind

Essentially it means split mind, and this is where the misconception comes from. In fact split mind refers to the psychotic element, where a sufferers mind becomes seperated or "split" from reality; hence delusions and hallucinations that are well known symptoms. It does not refer to a divide intrinsical to the mind, i.e split personalities as many incorrectly believe.

The multiple personality thing that you are suggesting is correctly know as Dissociative Identity Disorder, recognised by the North American DSM (clinical encyclopedia of psychological ilnesses). However, its credibility as a serious disorder is dubious among some individuals in the psychological community.

And the fact that you suggest that God has numerous psychological disorders is laughable.

Originally Posted by skysaw

Religion is extremely protective of itself. It is designed to infiltrate into every aspect of people's lives, and to be passed on from generation to generation. Its arguments are so forceful, and the threatened consequences of going against its tenants are so great, that it takes over ones reason and shuts his mind to any possible doubt.

Let's look at some of the specific tools Christianity uses to perpetuate itself.

Belief is a matter of life and death
Eternal life and death moreover. Follow one path and you will be in heaven forever. Follow any other and you will burn and suffer forever.

See I have a problem with your reasoning as its seems cyclical. Chrisitans believe that "belief" (as you put it) is a matter of life and death. This is an inherent semantic in Christianity, not some secondary, post-initiation political/social action to prolong its existence. Christians are Christian because they believe that it is a matter of life and death.
And yet you then say that they make it a matter of life and death so that people will believe. You see the foundation of Christianity as solely a tool to promote its existence. Here you are reversing cause and effect in order to portray Christianity as a tool of social control as opposed to a genuine spiritual identity.
I hope you understand my reasoning, it is a tad complex, but there is a point.