Thread: Why are religions and spiritual paths so antisensual?

My thoughts on this are very similar to your's, i think that love, sex, freedom, creativity, happiness etc. should be celebrated, anyone who believes in god and believes that god would be judgemental and malevolent has severely skewed views, in my opinion.
The sensual moments of life should be embraced, not condemned. Why is feeling good considered such a bad thing?

Originally Posted by Idolfan

Practically every doctrine and teaching of every belief system has something against pleasure.

No, not all. Some beleive that life should be spent in the pursuit of pure joy. Therefore it would be a waste of life, indeed a sin, to deny yourself any experience:


AL 1- 51. Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me.

AL 1 - 62. At all my meetings with you shall the priestess say -- and her eyes shall burn with desire as she stands bare and rejoicing in my secret temple -- To me! To me! calling forth the flame of the hearts of all in her love-chant.

AL 1 - 63. Sing the rapturous love-song unto me! Burn to me perfumes! Wear to me jewels! Drink to me, for I love you! I love you!

AL 2 -20. Beauty and strength, leaping laughter and delicious languor, force and fire, are of us.

AL 2 -22. I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all. It is a lie, this folly against self. The exposure of innocence is a lie. Be strong, o man! lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this.

I think it was originally tended to controll people and keep their minds occupied with nothingness and make people not care if something is affecting others negatively.

Then there's the people that believe these teachings and spread it by needs of there ego to feel in control of other because they just "know" what should be done and what shouldn't.

Every little thing is sacred, everything should be joyed and/or experienced for what they truly are.

We humans are afforded a limited attention span in this life. The more attention we pay to our sense of the mundane world around us, the less attention we will have to dedicate to those transcendent senses that we might develop.

Having said that, I don't agree that virtually all spiritual paths tell you to forsake sensual pleasure. Taoism asks you to take joy in every aspect of life, as do many other doctrines.

Originally Posted by evildoctor

AL 1- 51. Be goodly therefore: dress ye all in fine apparel; eat rich foods and drink sweet wines and wines that foam! Also, take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! But always unto me.

AL 1 - 62. At all my meetings with you shall the priestess say -- and her eyes shall burn with desire as she stands bare and rejoicing in my secret temple -- To me! To me! calling forth the flame of the hearts of all in her love-chant.

AL 1 - 63. Sing the rapturous love-song unto me! Burn to me perfumes! Wear to me jewels! Drink to me, for I love you! I love you!

AL 2 -20. Beauty and strength, leaping laughter and delicious languor, force and fire, are of us.

AL 2 -22. I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness. To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all. It is a lie, this folly against self. The exposure of innocence is a lie. Be strong, o man! lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this.

These are very interesting scriptures. Assuming that they are, scriptures. I love the vocabulary of "Burn to me", "Wear to me" and "Drink to me". It's very poetic. Of course, it's easy to spot how the abstainant mind will brand these as Satanic. In fact, Satanists are admittedly encouraged to make things seem that way. Perhaps it's just to piss off Christians, I don't know.

Where were these verses from anyway? I have no idea what AL is.

I believe the texts in question are asking you not to love the material. Bear in
mind that words like "world" have been mistranslated due to their possible
meanings. In this case, world was likely intended to be used as 'material'.
I cannot say for certain as I am not in possession of an original biblical text,
but I'm sure that you are aware of what odd phrases were made manifest in
the many years of translating into different languages. One can only wonder
what the originals said at this point, unless you are willing to gain a
comprehensive understanding of some of our older languages.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

These are very interesting scriptures. Assuming that they are, scriptures. I love the vocabulary of "Burn to me", "Wear to me" and "Drink to me". It's very poetic. Of course, it's easy to spot how the abstainant mind will brand these as Satanic. In fact, Satanists are admittedly encouraged to make things seem that way. Perhaps it's just to piss off Christians, I don't know.

Where were these verses from anyway? I have no idea what AL is.

Yes its scripture. Its from a book called Liber AL Vel Legis, or the Book Of The Law in english. A book of 220 versus in 3 chapters. Here is the complete text:

http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/engccxx.html

Its one of the key scripture from the religion/philosophy called THELEMA (greek for free will). Started by Crowley but also based on the philosopy of "the perfect free will of the individual" by Rabelais and others.

You are also correct about it being incorrectly viewed as satanic - Crowley was labeled "the wickedest man ever" by the church during his time. La Vey used Crowleys work as his basis for Theistic satanism, but Crowley's thelema is really based more on buddhist principles.

Crowley was considered the greatest poet of his age - so you were also correct to spot its lyrical nature.

Originally Posted by evildoctor

Yes its scripture. Its from a book called Liber AL Vel Legis, or the Book Of The Law in english. A book of 220 versus in 3 chapters. Here is the complete text:

http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/engccxx.html

Its one of the key scripture from the religion/philosophy called THELEMA (greek for free will). Started by Crowley but also based on the philosopy of "the perfect free will of the individual" by Rabelais and others.

You are also correct about it being incorrectly viewed as satanic - Crowley was labeled "the wickedest man ever" by the church during his time. La Vey used Crowleys work as his basis for Theistic satanism, but Crowley's thelema is really based more on buddhist principles.

Crowley was considered the greatest poet of his age - so you were also correct to spot its lyrical nature.

Ah, Crowley.

I have a copy of LaVey's Satanic Bible and although he identifies himself and his followers as 'Satanists', his values are of much the same description. There is so much in Crowley's works I haven't even started to read them. I could have heard many things from this book on the internet without even knowing it.

People of the mainstream religions will see people like LaVey and Crowley as being very narrow minded in their pleas that pleasure and hedonism were actually things to be valued. I can also imagine thinking this, from a perspective of someone indoctrinated by Christian values. Or, at least man-made Christian values. There is precious little difference these days. But then I ask myself, "If pleasure is not something we should seek, then how is it that these religions justify their heaven?" I don't understand how there can be a heaven if it's not a magnification of our own hedonism. Even mystics like Swedenborg say that there is food, sex and beauty in heaven; it is just disocciated from attachment, addiction, and in his case somehow adultery. This is the kind of state I would like to achieve and with discipline it's obviously possible (except I wouldn't mind casual sex).

What confuses me is that most evangelicals you see exercise their hedonism perfectly. Practically every YouTube scandalist for example, such as VenomFangX, has come from a richass background and treat themselves like kings. Even though they won't admit it, they're the ones who know that a lifestyle of charity and hedonism are possible simultaneously; it's just that for some reason they refuse to tell people.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

The bible is littered with phrases such as "You cannot love God and the world, if you love the world you are an enemy of God" and stuff like that. Practically every doctrine and teaching of every belief system has something against pleasure. They make up excuses like, "Everyone who lives this lifestyle will tell you that they are given over to impulse" and making it out as if it's impossible to get what you want and love God. What the hell? This annoys me so much because not everyone is irresponsible enough to get them into that kind of trouble. Just about every single thing that's fun in this world is some kind of sensuality or at least a care that is not about God. I don't understand. How am I expected to live a life of constant nothingness except for God. I would feel guilty every time I ate a meal and enjoyed it! I can't tell if they're only talking about addictions or about any kind of worldly attachment. I treat sensual and fleshly things as if they are holy because they're the only things that make life worth living for half of us.

Instead of littering the forum with every little idea that pops in your head you should make a blog and put a link in your sig.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

The bible is littered with phrases such as "You cannot love God and the world, if you love the world you are an enemy of God" and stuff like that.

no waaaaay!

Originally Posted by grasshoppa

Instead of littering the forum with every little idea that pops in your head you should make a blog and put a link in your sig.

ya!

Originally Posted by Idolfan

The bible is littered with phrases such as "You cannot love God and the world, if you love the world you are an enemy of God" and stuff like that. Practically every doctrine and teaching of every belief system has something against pleasure. They make up excuses like, "Everyone who lives this lifestyle will tell you that they are given over to impulse" and making it out as if it's impossible to get what you want and love God. What the hell? This annoys me so much because not everyone is irresponsible enough to get them into that kind of trouble.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

Just about every single thing that's fun in this world is some kind of sensuality or at least a care that is not about God

Exactly! Because worldly things in their eyes distract oneself from the pursuit of worshiping/praising god,and in turn these detract us from following "his rules".

This is why religion condemns worldly things. It Leads us astray from the path of god.

Take the Taliban for instance. They viewed music and dancing as things which would corrupt an individual and lead them away from god and his will. Thus under the rule of the Taliban music and dancing was made illegal. The punishments were rather medieval as well if you were found non complacent.

Originally Posted by Invader

I believe the texts in question are asking you not to love the material. Bear in
mind that words like "world" have been mistranslated due to their possible
meanings. In this case, world was likely intended to be used as 'material'.

I can't speak to the original wording of the bible, but their use of the term "worldly things" is itself quite logical if you think about it.

Christianity considers things of this world, worldly things to be corrupt and sinful since the fall of Eden. Since man fell out of line with god. Thus they warn us against worldly ways because they distract us from god. Worldly ways in this context is sin.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

Practically every doctrine and teaching of every belief system has something against pleasure.

Idolfan, lately you seem really stressed because of religious doctrines. But I don't understand what you're blabbing about here to be honest!

Every belief system? Every spiritual belief system?? You're crazy!!!



here is a simple solution, google Krishna and Radha.






The Hindu religion is one of the world's largest religions, and Krishna is famous




and so is his lover radha



there is so much more to religion and spirituality than the Abrahamic religions

if you look, you will find religions and spiritualities that will have you celebrate sex and pleasure of all kinds. mystery religions, such as ones in egypt, even taught, that only through the union of a man and woman could you achieve immortality.

it's terrible that the bible would separate God from the world.

but to be fair, Jesus tried to correct this terrible mistake - and even teaches it's okay to enjoy 'the fruits of the earth' - because to love the fruits of the earth is to love God because they come from God

It's also important to note that Jesus (as far as I remember) was with Mary Magdalene when he said this, yet another verse that suggests he meant more than just wine





just...stop!! for your own sanity

just stop reading the old testiment! it's just dumb! it's a waste of time to argue for or against it, there is so much more out there

You're correct about Jesus, he was never really anti-world.

But he did have some really unrealistic expectations about marriage and sex.

I have found this:

"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal" (John 12:25)

Christians are taught to hate life.

Is this good advice????????

Why would I want to keep something that I hate? And is it even a conscious decision whether you hate it or not? This stuff also comes straight from the mouth of Jesus.

Why do I bring this up? Just incredibly curious as to how Christians answer to this. If Christ is the way to inner peace, then that's wrong isn't it? You're not supposed to be peaceful. You're not supposed to be enjoying yourself.

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I have found this:

"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal" (John 12:25)

Christians are taught to hate life.

Is this good advice????????

No it is not. Its the worst advice there is.

Dont forget that xtianity was a useful form of crowd control. After Constantine adopted Xtianity and the official docterine was agreed at the council of nicea, the church was linked forever to state.

"The meek shall inheret the earth" - what better way of controling the serfs, peasants and plebs during the dark ages when life was short and brutal. Tell them that their little lifes are crap, but be loyal to the church and state, obey and donate, and there will be a great reward in the next life.

"turn the other cheek" - in other words dont fight, question nothing, be a member of a flock - one of the sheeple.

This is the great lie of the ages.

Idolfan - for all we know you have but one life. Therefore why live in fear? why deny yourself anything?

Instead go through life as a lion. Try everything at least once. Travel everywhere. Love and be loved by as many as you possiblly can. Sleep with as many people as you possibly can. Read everything, see everything, taste everything. If someone crosses you then kick the living crap out of them and piss upon their broken bodies.

Then, when your time comes, know that you have lived a life as full as anyone who has ever lived, and know that you roared as a king of beasts and your time on earth was glorious.

Originally Posted by evildoctor

Instead go through life as a lion. Try everything at least once. Travel everywhere. Love and be loved by as many as you possiblly can. Sleep with as many people as you possibly can. Read everything, see everything, taste everything. If someone crosses you then kick the living crap out of them and piss upon their broken bodies.

That is the best paragraph ever.

I think most people can tell that I'm putting 'undue' trust into Christian scriptures. I think a lot of it is tradition. I am just astounded at most of the things said in them. If we take all the Gospels at face value then Jesus is a two faced hypocrit. And then I get all worked up that there must be something wrong with me, because a seventeen year old atheist can see this, but millions of seventy year old Christian theologians cannot. I would laugh at it if only it was not absurdly ridiculous.

I am starting to wonder that perhaps worldly things are demonized because of their 'snaring' nature? The Christians have already demonstraded this in the past with their churches. It is eerily amazing how you can accurately compare the features of a Catholic church or cathedral to a woman's reproductive organs. The whole set up is designed to attract people like men to a pussy. The same techniques are used everywhere in society but they're usually incredibly easy to spot. But my point is, that if someone understood what you liked they could deliberately use your sensuality against you as a weakness.

(First, I'll address some comments. After that I'll get back to the original topic.)

Originally Posted by Idolfan

I have found this:

"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal" (John 12:25)
Christians are taught to hate life.

If one loves his life, he is centered around it; it is what he cares about. What Jesus was talking about was life here on this earth in comparison to eternal life after that: If you live for this life, you'll miss out on the joys of the next.
Also, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." (Luke 9:23)
In other words, forsake the good life for greater glory.

Originally Posted by evildoctor

Don't forget that Christianity was a useful form of crowd control. After Constantine adopted Christianity and the official doctrine was agreed at the council of Nicaea, the church was linked forever to state.
"The meek shall inherit the earth" - what better way of controlling the serfs, peasants and plebs during the dark ages when life was short and brutal. Tell them that their little lifes are crap, but be loyal to the church and state, obey and donate, and there will be a great reward in the next life.

And that is completely unbiblical. It is not Christian, and it is not right. Can I justify the twistings of the Word by historical figures? No. But you can no more truthfully declare them to be an accurate image of what a leader in Christ is, either.

"turn the other cheek" - in other words don't fight, question nothing, be a member of a flock - one of the sheeple.

No. Just no. To "turn the other cheek" is not to live without question, it is not to mindlessly follow. To "turn the other cheek" is to be able to forgive those who do you wrong and to continue aside of the consequences. The Christians hiding in the catacombs of Rome when Nero was in power were by no means "questioning nothing" or being "a member of a flock", yet they peacefully rebelled by continuing in their beliefs and worship just as Jesus told them to in Mark 8:38, 2 Timothy 1:8, Luke 19:40, and Matthew 10:33

Idolfan - for all we know you have but one life. Therefore why live in fear?

I agree: "Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." (Deuteronomy 31:6)

why deny yourself anything?

Because even plain observation can show a person that some things lead to destruction. Excessive drugs, an unhealthy sex life, a violent nature, etc. are things that I don't even need to find scripture or statistics to expose as self-destructive natures.

Instead go through life as a lion. Try everything at least once. Travel everywhere. Love and be loved by as many as you possibly can. Sleep with as many people as you possibly can. Read everything, see everything, taste everything. If someone crosses you then kick the living crap out of them and piss upon their broken bodies.

The itallics above I can not agree enough with. GO FOR IT! LIVE!
But as for the underlined... I don't see how I could fully love and respect someone if I would sleep with then without being tied to them life-long. And how can I love and respect someone if I can't react to them wronging me with a level head?
I chose the level head. When I am wronged, I don't let it get to me. I turn the other cheek and try to find what I can do to help the person out.
"The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded." (1 Peter 4:7)

Originally Posted by Idolfan

What confuses me is that most evangelicals you see exercise their hedonism perfectly. Practically every YouTube scandalist for example, such as VenomFangX, has come from a richass background and treat themselves like kings. Even though they won't admit it, they're the ones who know that a lifestyle of charity and hedonism are possible simultaneously; it's just that for some reason they refuse to tell people.

What consuses my the most is that most people I meet don't differentiate between a church and a true follower of Christ.
Again, a church WILL fail you. People will fail you, and especially televangelists. Really. Yes, many, many are/have been hedonistic liars, but that only means that they were living in sin, not that the Bible that they said (lied about) believing in is false.

I am just astounded at most of the things said in [the Gospels]. If we take [them] at face value then Jesus is a two faced hypocrite.

Yes. As it is said in Lewis's trilemma, Jesus must be a liar, lunatic, or Lord: "Christ either deceived mankind by conscious fraud, or He was Himself deluded and self-deceived, or He was Divine. There is no getting out of this trilemma. It is inexorable."

As for sensuality...

Originally Posted by juroara

Just stop reading the old testament!

Haven't you ever read the Song of Songs?

Right off the bat, chapter one:
2 Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth—for your love is more delightful than wine.
3 Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes;your name is like perfume poured out. No wonder the young women love you!
4 Take me away with you—let us hurry! Let the king bring me into his chambers.
(keep in mind, the perspective changes back and forth between the man and woman)
10 Your cheeks are beautiful with earrings, your neck with strings of jewels.
11 We will make you earrings of gold,studded with silver.

ch.2
3 Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest is my beloved among the young men.
I delight to sit in his shade, and his fruit is sweet to my taste.
4 Let him lead me to the banquet hall, and let his banner over me be love.
5 Strengthen me with raisins, refresh me with apples, for I am faint with love.
6 His left arm is under my head, and his right arm embraces me.

4:
6 Until the day breaks and the shadows flee, I will go to the mountain of myrrh and to the hill of incense.
10 How delightful is your love, my sister, my bride! How much more pleasing is your love than wine, and the fragrance of your perfume more than any spice!

Ch.7
6 How beautiful you are and how pleasing, my love, with your delights!
7 Your stature is like that of the palm, and your breasts like clusters of fruit.
8 I said, “I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.”
May your breasts be like clusters of grapes on the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples,
9 and your mouth like the best wine.

8:6 Love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave.
It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame.

What about 1 Timothy 5:23, "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine" (but don't forget Ephesians 5:18, "Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.")

What about Jesus' first miracle? (John 2:1-11) That's right, the Son of God's first miracle was just to keep the party going!

Oh, and my all-time favorite, Proverbs 5:19, "may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be intoxicated with her love."
Those verses, my friends, are what I would call sensual.

(And honestly, I couldn't even begin to relate all the sensuality of the Song of Songs. Just read it for yourselves: Song of Songs 1 NIV - Solomon )

Eat, friends, and drink; drink your fill of love! (Song of Songs 5:1)

Suffering occurs not because you love the world but because you need the world. The world becomes more important than what lies beyond it. "Be happy for no reason, because you can lose the reason."

Sensuality keeps one fixated upon the body/person/persona

The same body/person/persona one believes themselves to be

Such teachings serve to pull one away from this singular delusion

To provide opportunity to realize ones own true nature

To recognize the reality of ones own true Being


Often purpose gets lost over time

Teachings then wander and evolve into shades of former truth

Truth, though still present, buried in shadows...