Thread: REM Detectors (again)

Has anyone tried taping their cell phone to their hands? The vibration could be too much so the watches are certainly a good option.

The reason I didn't try that before was that I thought REM cycles had some variability from person to person.

But I have neurofeedback equipment. So after recording a few nights, I can see what my rhythm is.

Still, I'm pretty sure that there's added benefit from getting the vibration EXACTLY when your brain goes to REM.

Originally posted by visor
The reason I didn't try that before was that I thought REM cycles had some variability from person to person.

It does vary a bit. Which is why I don't like the time system.
Besides if you can detect when you're going into REM, you can find out more about your sleep health.

And the vibration was generally the idea for the glove.
I didn't like the idea of electrical shock or pain.

I got these ideas for the detection of REM from a patent. I don't know about if they are right. They might be easier to implement than GSR.

The sensor for detecting a phasic event can be vibration sensitive, e.g., for toe twitches, or an electromyographic (EMG) electrode to evaluate muscle tone, middle ear muscle
activity, eye twitching, or other phasic activity.

Muscles undergo flaccid paralysis during a REM cycle.

Besides, I found this fascinating patent. It claims that using photic stimulation (with LEDS for example) on parts with a lot of surface veins, it is possible to increase the length of REM periods (NREM periods shortening). In their tests they achieved a mean change of +47 %.

The invention features REM detection but I understood it might work even if it would be on the whole time. And any light source is ok. That means it should be fairly easy for anyone to do.

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdes?DB=EPODOC&...7&QPN=US6669627

Zuarko, 'ya there?

http://bentham.k2.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/media/16bit-sch.jpg

There was not enough information on the site I posted about this circuit. What is the
ZRC, and what are the LSP1 to LSP4? LSP1 and LSP2 are the data outputs right?

It uses I2C interface. How do you use that, do you have any experience with that?

Here's another circuit:

http://ralphhilton.org/emeter/Mk4.htm

GSR

+ very handy to use
- places demands on the quality of the circuitry

EMG

+ cheap (around $10 excluding the breadboard and the batteries)
+ detection of REM possibly fairly easy
- setting up electrodes is a bit of a hassle

A very simple EMG circuit which might still be sufficient for our purposes. It outputs to a microphone input. It needs some custom code which I haven't looked for yet.

http://pni.unibe.ch/Chip.htm

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...i?artid=1389709

"It was recently reported that epochs of non-REM sleep (NREMS) with low muscle tone represent a partial correlate of REM sleep (REMS)."

I'm glad I didn't pursue the EMG route any further.

Maybe use a monitor like that for a night, keeping data somehow, and see what heartrates plateau at. That would allow for sensitivity adjustment.

And if you were to memorize morse code, then you could introduce phrases into the dream

Originally Posted by Mickeys_Elbow

Better get the patent quickly!
And the heartrate monitoring between different users could easily be solved with a little smart programming into the device making it keep a record of the person using it and determining their average heartrates. That is if you are serious about creating this device for more people than just yourself.
Personally I think it is a very good idea and could be the inexpenssive alternative to the damnable Nova Dreamer!
[/b]

Um, yes you can with Cygwin. It does bash scripting.

Originally Posted by Kaniaz

Damn windows in general. You can't write cool shell scripts like you can in Linux.
[/b]

I'm new to the forum so I've not seen this topic before.

A few thoughts: to me, vibration is an indicator of danger (think someone shaking you to wake you up). I wonder if it might not be better to use some sort of peltier(?) device to gently cool your finger tip or wrist or something? (Or am I totally confused as to what a peltier device does!?)

Second, for pure prototyping, why not check out the Basic Stamp by Parallax?

Nice to see people notice this thread.

This project is currently on hold. I did measure my EEG for few nights but there were nowhere as clear patterns as the literature indicates. Maybe my Aspergers has some to do with that. Too bad. I will try it again later.

Werewolf, I really don't think the heartrate is the way to go. But I could be wrong.

Skybluelucid. The method of signaling is like the icing on the cake. We're nowhere close to choosing that. Having said that, you may be right about the undesirability of vibration. I think people should get to choose their method of signaling.

The parallax seems expensive if it's up to 89 dollars, but I'm not sure.

How about resistivity of the skin, does that change when you enter REM?

GSR (galvanic skin resistance) supposedly changes a lot (it's like when waking). Someone also recently suggested novel methods like putting capacitors and magnets over the eye and then measuring small differences with some component. I think I might try that too, if it's not too difficult to make.

I have a parallax basic stamp 2. I was trying to make a "dream-ankleband" thingy with it. I managed to have it choose a random 20-30 minute time period and then power a pizo buzzer. I want to replace that with a small pager vibrator moter and attach that to my ankle, but the whole unit (including the main board, with breadboard, and 9 volt) was too big to do anything with. I was going to use this to help with reality checks during the day and then help me recognize i'm dreaming during the night. But like i said, its too big to wear. If anyone knows how to make a device like this using discreet components. i'd be interested to purchase the supplies and build the thing.

Originally Posted by visor

GSR (galvanic skin resistance) supposedly changes a lot (it's like when waking). Someone also recently suggested novel methods like putting capacitors and magnets over the eye and then measuring small differences with some component. I think I might try that too, if it's not too difficult to make.
[/b]

Not magnet. Inductors. One would have to select a circuit that is easily influenced by the change in inductence from an inductor who inductance is easilly changed by the close proximity of flesh.

Hey, I was just wandering if anyone is continuing this or has finished it? I came across this thread and it looked interesting...

I assume no one has finished this project and made data. I was browsing the internet and cam across this site
http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/Cou....html#SHDesign
Basically, it's the same thing except they use a microcontroller. A possibility. A self
adjusting range for a wide variety of resistance would have to be added, though...

Very nice find

I had to scroll to the bottom to see the authors. Thought for a moment it might have been from Kimpossible.

She never did develop or sell the last device that she and Placebo were working on.

On a high note, that looks like a really nice design.

Have you guys looked into this at all? I'm no engineer, but I have thought about it in regards to lucid dreaming many times. They already have it set up to determine when someone is in various stages of sleep.

http://www.hoana.com/technology.html

It's my Father's company, so if you have any questions let me know.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Have you guys looked into this at all? I'm no engineer, but I have thought about it in regards to lucid dreaming many times. They already have it set up to determine when someone is in various stages of sleep.

http://www.hoana.com/technology.html

It's my Father's company, so if you have any questions let me know.

I AM an engineer, if I get a chance soon, I'll give it a look and comment.

I've been searching again and I found this neat pdf file on how to build a bluetooth gsr detector. Not the easiest thing to build, but still cool, and would be quite educational too.
http://affect.media.mit.edu/pdfs/05.strauss.pdf

Oh, and just in case that link doesn't work, I got it from this gsr website
http://bentham.k2.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/notebook/?p=158l

Just to fill everyone in who doesn't know the background... we (Me, Kimpossible, Seeker and Magna..something) were developing a glove-based electrodermal detector, that would log the data and on REM would trigger a 'you're dreaming' signal (lights or vibration)

It has applications outside of lucid dreaming as well, of course, but the intention was to detect dreams and lucid dreams.

So what happened? Kimpossible cheesed off some people and is no longer with us. Before pissing people off, she removed all the data that had been collected :/
And I suck at electronics, so I'm not in a position to carry on without some serious electronics studies.

On a high note, that looks like a really nice design.

Yeah, but I notice that they weren't actually able to detect emotional state with it - it wasn't exactly successful. But they did feel that it had more to do with the cheaper electrodes. Kim also mentioned the electrodes being important.

Yet another project I need to get around to. I have an electronics savy friend that I might be able to bully into helping me, but it's not easy to motivate him.

Oh, and that Hoana device looks great. But it's probably very expensive, because it's intended for medical purposes.

I was looking more at the schematic at the bottom. It could help, and certainly the blue tooth could be eliminated and surface mount componenets changed to dip components to cut costs. Or, it could just help us with another design...