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    Thread: If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did all this stuff come from?

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      If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did all this stuff come from?

      Ok, im putting this question out, and going to bed, and when i get back i am sure that all you Big Bang Gang Bangers will be all over this thread. I see a dilemma when people that tell us in our classrooms and televisions, that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, but they can only change forms.

      These same people turn around and tell us that everything just popped out of nothing at the beginning of "time." All of the matter in space and time was suddenly just "came out of a small ball of condensed particles." But, where did those particles come from. By the very theory of the Big Bang, the matter was so condensed that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING could escape the gravity pull. So, how could it have exploded, or by other means expanded into what we now see as the universe? It had to have had a first cause, an initial push by a more powerful entity. (note: i am not a christian, so dont think im one of these good ol boy types or whatever.) If, by the very laws of the universe, matter cannot be created or destroyed, then the Big Bang cannot have happened by its own power. There WAS a creator involved.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hercuflea View Post
      It had to have had a first cause, an initial push by a more powerful entity.
      But what created that more powerful entity? Something had to poof out of nothing else we would not be here.

      I heard a scientist on a video or TV (can't recall exactly where) talk about the similarities between black holes sucking up matter, and white holes spitting up matter in a matter similar to the Big Bang. That perhaps our Big Bang was not the beginning of all existence after all. But alas, this 16 year old is nowhere near qualified to answer such a question.
      Last edited by Black_Eagle; 09-17-2009 at 04:03 AM.
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      The big bang doesn't say that matter came out of nowhere. It just says the the universe as we recognize it began as a singularity. The conventional wisdom is that quantum fluctuation was responsible for the event but quantum mechanics doesn't include gravity and the scales we are talking about small so that quantum effects have to be taken into account. General Relativity (which predicts gravity) only goes to just after the big bang before it breaks down.

      We need a theory of Quantum Gravity to answer your question. "singularity's" will probably not exists in Quantum Gravity. Singularity is a mathematical term for when some otherwise well behaved function goes to infinity or does something else that's nasty and difficult to work with. All of it's partial derivatives going to zero is an example of this. In this case, it's the gravitational attraction going to infinity and the width of the object going to zero. This is probably more indicative of a misunderstanding of gravity at very small distances on our part than of an actual physical occurrence.
      Last edited by PhilosopherStoned; 09-17-2009 at 04:14 AM.
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      Even if you could create matter out of nothing, that wouldn't explain how matter could spontaneously appear out of no where.

      The simple answer, is that every thing has always existed. Though possibly not in the form it is now.
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      I never understand why people say "this can't have happened out of nothing ... but something far more powerful could have!"

      or the alternative

      "this can't have always existed ... but something far more powerful could have!"

      It makes absolutely no sense, since it's basically saying the more complex something is, the more likely it had no cause.


      Oh and I love the "if you can't explain it I AM AUTOMATICALLY RIGHT!!!!!111" bit as well.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hercuflea View Post
      These same people turn around and tell us that everything just popped out of nothing at the beginning of "time."
      No they don't. Nobody knows what happened at the beggining. All the Big Bang theory says that we can trace our universe back through time to a point where it was a singularity. That's not nothing.
      Quote Originally Posted by Hercuflea View Post
      All of the matter in space and time was suddenly just "came out of a small ball of condensed particles." But, where did those particles come from. By the very theory of the Big Bang, the matter was so condensed that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING could escape the gravity pull. So, how could it have exploded, or by other means expanded into what we now see as the universe?
      At the Big Bang, space-time and matter were both "created". It isn't an explosion in a pre-existing space. They are trying to figure out what happened that made the Big Bang.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hercuflea View Post
      It had to have had a first cause, an initial push by a more powerful entity. (note: i am not a christian, so dont think im one of these good ol boy types or whatever.) If, by the very laws of the universe, matter cannot be created or destroyed, then the Big Bang cannot have happened by its own power. There WAS a creator involved.
      I don't know how much right we have to say it had to have a first cause, but as I said, all we can know is that it happened.

      It was a creator...or it could've been a fart in an extra dimension, or it could've been anything that we can or can't comprehend. Saying it was created by a creator is just a baseless presupposition.
      Last edited by Bonsay; 09-17-2009 at 12:07 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Hercuflea View Post
      Ok, im putting this question out, and going to bed, and when i get back i am sure that all you Big Bang Gang Bangers will be all over this thread. I see a dilemma when people that tell us in our classrooms and televisions, that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, but they can only change forms.

      These same people turn around and tell us that everything just popped out of nothing at the beginning of "time." All of the matter in space and time was suddenly just "came out of a small ball of condensed particles." But, where did those particles come from. By the very theory of the Big Bang, the matter was so condensed that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING could escape the gravity pull. So, how could it have exploded, or by other means expanded into what we now see as the universe? It had to have had a first cause, an initial push by a more powerful entity. (note: i am not a christian, so dont think im one of these good ol boy types or whatever.) If, by the very laws of the universe, matter cannot be created or destroyed, then the Big Bang cannot have happened by its own power. There WAS a creator involved.
      I think the main problem with the "matter couldn't have come from nowhere" criticism of the Big Bang theory has to do with our perspective as humans. We only know so much about the state of the universe before space/time were "created". I may be behind the times, but I don't think science has completely reached a consensus on what (if anything) was actually before the Big Bang, so we are left with the cliffhanger notion that "there was nothing."

      To me, the argument is the same as saying "a 7-foot, 300lb man couldn't have come from the unity of a microscopic sperm and an egg which is just barely visible to the naked eye." It's a problem of perspective. If one is not aware of the nutritional process, and the way a body forms and grows from practically nothing, then it would seem an impossibility.

      I'm sure there is more to the "universe coming from nothing" paradigm than we have - as of yet - been able to discern.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Black_Eagle View Post
      But what created that more powerful entity? Something had to poof out of nothing else we would not be here.

      I heard a scientist on a video or TV (can't recall exactly where) talk about the similarities between black holes sucking up matter, and white holes spitting up matter in a matter similar to the Big Bang. That perhaps our Big Bang was not the beginning of all existence after all. But alas, this 16 year old is nowhere near qualified to answer such a question.
      Funny you mentioned white holes, I discussed that in school an hour ago.
      Did that guy on TV discuss how white holes reverse entropy? (My own hypothesis)


      Hercuflea, you would probably like to read this post, some of the questions are addressed.

      http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...80#post1167080
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      Well people can see the universe is spreading outwards from a central point, and make an educated guess that everything started in the center then went outwards.

      However, it is very difficult to know what happened at the creation of the universe and what was before. It may even be impossible, as we can never witness the creation of a new universe.

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      This is the problem i have with the "infinite causes theory" for lack of a better term. Yes, I agree that everything, in this universe, must have a cause. But, assuming that there was a creator that caused the universe into existence, the laws of the creation do not necessarily affect the actions of the creator. For the sake of argument i am going to assume that there is a creator of the universe. If he created everything around us, everything we see and do not see, and one of those foundational principles of the universe is that everything must have a cause, it still does not mean that the creator is affected by it. Creator > Creation. So therefore the creator does not necessarily need to have something that caused it to come into existence. He/She/It is not subject to the laws of his/her/its own creation

      Sorry if that was a little vague, im not exactly the most articulate person
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      Matter cannot be created or destroyed inside our universe. Energy existed with our universe as it came into being, a part of the package deal. It wasn't created after the fact.

      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
      The conventional wisdom is that quantum fluctuation was responsible for the event
      Care to elaborate a bit about that? I thought the conventional wisdom was that there was nothing before the event at all, which begs the question: How does quantum fluctuation happen in nothing? I'll reserve my other questions until you respond.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Photolysis View Post
      I never understand why people say "this can't have happened out of nothing ... but something far more powerful could have!"

      or the alternative

      "this can't have always existed ... but something far more powerful could have!"

      It makes absolutely no sense, since it's basically saying the more complex something is, the more likely it had no cause.


      Oh and I love the "if you can't explain it I AM AUTOMATICALLY RIGHT!!!!!111" bit as well.
      You just summed up creationism. That is their entire argument in a nutshell.
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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      Antagonist Invader's Avatar
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      It's almost ironic that the creationist stance,
      "The universe can't come out of nothing."
      appears to more or less indicate that a creator's existence should be just as
      unlikely (or unprecedented), while the typical anti-God stance,
      "The universe CAN come out of nothing, therefor no creator."
      would indicate that the same 'coming out of nothing' should be just as likely
      to occur for the same being we label God.

      [I'm equating God with creator, no other personal attributes or characteristics.]
      Last edited by Invader; 09-17-2009 at 09:27 PM.
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      Invader, no÷ne said that the universe came out of nothing. As far as our knowledge of physics goes, in the beginning, there was a singularity in which space-time and all of the energy in the universe was condensed almost infinity small. The big bang theory deals with what happens just afterward; the sudden expansion of space-time. You see, the big bang is not an explosion into a preŰxisting space, it is the expansion of that space out of a singularity. The entire universe was the singularity. There was nothing else in which anything could be said to have existed.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
      Care to elaborate a bit about that? I thought the conventional wisdom was that there was nothing before the event at all, which begs the question: How does quantum fluctuation happen in nothing? I'll reserve my other questions until you respond.
      Sure. There is no way to say what was before the big bang or if it even makes sense to talk about a 'before' the big bang. So the best that we can say is that the universe as we know it began as a singularity and that guess is very well supported by observations. The quantum fluctuations would have been happening within the initial singularity. They answer the questions about what caused the singularity to not be a singularity anymore. This is possible because all the mass-energy of the universe, was compressed, along with the universe itself, to quantum scales so the whole thing was subject to quantum indeterminacy. So it could have found itself where the mass-energy was diffuse enough for some effect to cause further expansion. This is all happening 10^-12 seconds after the big bang and earlier. After that, known physics can pretty much handle it.

      Confused? So am I. I was talking off the cuff when I called it common wisdom. That's just a phrase of speech. Common speculation would be better.

      There are quantum fluctuations in "nothing" though. The closest that exists to a vacuum in nature is deep space and there QFT says that there are virtual particle pairs popping into existence and out of existence all the time. This is the basis of the unruh effect where an accelerating observer measures an increase in temperature. A non-accellerating observer wouldn't measure the virtual particles (this would contradict conservation of energy) but once you accelerate, enough energy is put into the system for them to be measured at the expense of whatever is accellerating the observer. That old saying that "nature abhors a vacuum" is more true than its originator could have imagined.
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      @ A Roxxor

      Hypothetical situation:
      1) You do not believe the universe was created by any thing or event.
      2) You do not believe the universe existed forever.

      Out of what did the universe come from?
      Spoiler for Answer:
      Nothing.


      It's a popular belief.


      That's not the point of the irony, anyways. >_>
      I hope you can at least find some humor in what it was about, unless the
      meaning is lost on you.

      Also, your explanation of the big bang.. Are you implying my ignorance of the
      phenomenon? I only ask because of the lack of relevance it has to 'what' the
      universe came from, and because my irony did not warrant it's explanation.



      @ PhilosopherStoned

      My confusion stems mostly from:
      "So it could have found itself where the mass-energy was diffuse enough for some effect to cause further expansion."I'm still bugged out about how anything can be 'diffuse' or even really exist 'inside'
      a dimensionless point at all. Or, perhaps my confusion is about the nature of
      singularities. That they're dimensionless is only what I've been taught. Everything
      that happened immediately after the big bang (within the fraction of a second) is
      merely imagined via thought experiments, right? Or have we proved anything about
      the nature of a singularity?

      I am however familiar with the seamingly random appearance of virtual particles in
      empty space, though I do not equate a total vacuum with 'nothing'. When you said
      that quantum fluctuations happen in nothing, I was assuming you meant that they
      happened independantly of 3dimensional space and time (before the existence of
      space came about). I'm not really sure it does make sense to talk about a 'before
      the big bang', unless time extended before that, but there's no way to know right
      now. A bullet for my mind.
      Last edited by Invader; 09-18-2009 at 12:14 AM.

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      The Big Bang is an observation. How many times...

      Unless you'd like to offer another possible initial state of a universe in which all of the matter in the universe is flying apart.

      Why is it that people can't grasp this most fundamental fact about science. We don't believe crazy things because we want to, we believe them because of empirical evidence and logic. A creator is supported by neither of these.
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      Except for the fact that the universe "flying apart" is only a theory...
      "La bellezza del paessa di Galilei!"

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      Quote Originally Posted by Photolysis View Post
      I never understand why people say "this can't have happened out of nothing ... but something far more powerful could have!"

      or the alternative

      "this can't have always existed ... but something far more powerful could have!"

      It makes absolutely no sense, since it's basically saying the more complex something is, the more likely it had no cause.


      Oh and I love the "if you can't explain it I AM AUTOMATICALLY RIGHT!!!!!111" bit as well.
      I love how people say "there must be a creator" just because they don't understand something. It's as ignorant as we used to be seeing something in the sky and saying it's one of the gods in the sky (like Zeus or whatever). Looking back at our history, we were SO GOD DAMN IGNORANT! not that it was really our fault...but we still were. Hell, even today so many people are absolutly ignorant, even science people if you can believe that. The past has not showed so many people that some things at this time of age can't be fully explained yet.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Hercuflea View Post
      Except for the fact that the universe "flying apart" is only a theory...
      NO it's an OBSERVATION and the ENTIRE REASON WE HAVE THE BIG BANG THEORY IN THE FIRST PLACE, AHHHHRARGH.

      ...please read about red shift.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
      My confusion stems mostly from:
      "So it could have found itself where the mass-energy was diffuse enough for some effect to cause further expansion."I'm still bugged out about how anything can be 'diffuse' or even really exist 'inside'
      a dimensionless point at all. Or, perhaps my confusion is about the nature of
      singularities. That they're dimensionless is only what I've been taught. Everything
      that happened immediately after the big bang (within the fraction of a second) is
      merely imagined via thought experiments, right? Or have we proved anything about
      the nature of a singularity?
      We don't know much about singularities because, by definition, a singularity is where math breaks down. Where a curve intersects itself is called a singularity if you are doing algebraic geometry. Where a coordinate transformation has all partial derivatives equal to zero is a singularity if you're doing differential geometry. Where something goes to infinity is a singularity pretty much no matter what you're doing.

      On the whole, I think that we can confidently say that a singularity being a zero dimensional point is a bunch of bullocks that will be done away with by a theory of quantum gravity. Very small? yes. Infinitely small? not possible. The reason that we need quantum gravity is that gravity normally plays no role in quantum physics because the masses involved are small enough for the gravitational charge to be negligible. Gravity is weak. Just pick something up with a magnet to demonstrate this. The tiny little magnet is more powerful than the gravitational attraction of the entire earth.

      From the other side, where gravity is dominant, things are usually too large for quantum effects to come into play. From the perspective of quantum mechanics, you are a wave and the wave length is your momentum divided by your mass. So it's a very small wave length and completely negligible. The wave length essentially determines the uncertainty. Gravitational physics describes you just fine.

      In what is now a singularity according to our mathematical models, both influences are too large to be ignored and nobody knows how to really take them both into account at the same time. If/When we get there though, I'm almost positive that the whole singularity thing will disappear.

      EDIT:

      As far as the whole thought experiments thing goes, it's more like after the fact fiddling of the equations. For example, somewhere around 10^-32 seconds after the BB, there needs to have been very rapid "inflationary period" or the math says that the universe comes out completely differently than it actually does. So physicists insert a new field to make it happen or try to get the vacuum energy to be accountable for it. If you actually get into it and look at a lot of sources, there is more of that going on than is often covered in 'popular' accounts. This is one of the reason that I don't consider the big bang to be a fact in the same sense that evolution is. At this point one believes in the big bang and accepts evolution. Quantum gravity could change the game entirely. That being said, it is the best theory that we have right now and if you don't want to believe in it and still be educated, you have quite an uphill battle.
      Last edited by PhilosopherStoned; 09-18-2009 at 01:44 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Invader View Post
      @ A Roxxor

      Hypothetical situation:
      1) You do not believe the universe was created by any thing or event.
      2) You do not believe the universe existed forever.

      Out of what did the universe come from?
      Spoiler for Answer:
      Nothing.


      It's a popular belief.


      That's not the point of the irony, anyways. >_>
      I hope you can at least find some humor in what it was about, unless the
      meaning is lost on you.
      The universe has a cause. What that is is uncertain. We do know the events that immediately followed, however. Saying the universe came from nothing is just as unsupported as saying that the universe came from a greater being.

      Also, your explanation of the big bang.. Are you implying my ignorance of the
      phenomenon? I only ask because of the lack of relevance it has to 'what' the
      universe came from, and because my irony did not warrant it's explanation.
      We don't know where the universe came from, the big bang does not attempt to answer this, and physics is not advanced to that point yet. There is no supported answer to this question.

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      Quote Originally Posted by LucidFlanders View Post
      I love how people say "there must be a creator" just because they don't understand something. It's as ignorant as we used to be seeing something in the sky and saying it's one of the gods in the sky (like Zeus or whatever). Looking back at our history, we were SO GOD DAMN IGNORANT! not that it was really our fault...but we still were. Hell, even today so many people are absolutly ignorant, even science people if you can believe that. The past has not showed so many people that some things at this time of age can't be fully explained yet.
      Ok first of all, thanks for the insult, jerk. Second of all, I never said that I am automatically right, that guy is putting words in my mouth. I confess, my knowledge of physics and the universe is proportionate to the size of a handful of mud in the gulf of Thailand. But I do know that something cannot be made out of nothing. It is impossible. I don't fully deny and reject the theory that the universe is possibly expanding from a single point. It could be true, it could not be true, but i have not seen enough evidence to justify that theory.

      I am not going to accept the notion that humans are just a sole little quirk, or stain upon the face of the earth that just happened to develop intelligence, and that there is nothing more out there that is more wise or capable than us. I think humans, so far, have proven that we can not possibly understand the mathematics and complexity that comprises even a single atom, much less of the entire known universe. I refuse to believe that we are a product of chance; here today, gone tomorrow, with no purpose.
      "La bellezza del paessa di Galilei!"

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      Quote Originally Posted by Hercuflea View Post
      If matter cant be created or destroyed, where did all this stuff come from?
      If God can't be created or destroyed, where did he come from?
      Quote Originally Posted by really View Post
      God cannot destroy himself because He is Omnipotent.


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      Quote Originally Posted by Universal Mind View Post
      If God can't be created or destroyed, where did he come from?
      He is simply the product of a deranged imagination.
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