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    Thread: Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals -- With Q & A

    1. #301
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      when you are doing memory exercises, what you are really doing is exercising your ability to access memory with the active tool of self-awareness and the passive tool of expectation. For instance, that Reverse Reality Check I mention in my WILD class includes actively exercising your memory access through self-awareness.
      ^^This in particular really clarified things.

      This may be unrelated but it just got me thinking….. do you think the fact that high self-awareness being the driver of lucidity, might be the reason why the SSILD technique apparently works so well, as it aims to induce high awareness for when you get into the dream, in other words, it aims to ‘temporarily’ induce the very thing that drives lucidity? (just a thought)

      Anyway, thanks again for your help!
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      Quote Originally Posted by Eamo24 View Post
      This may be unrelated but it just got me thinking….. do you think the fact that high self-awareness being the driver of lucidity, might be the reason why the SSILD technique apparently works so well, as it aims to induce high awareness for when you get into the dream, in other words, it aims to ‘temporarily’ induce the very thing that drives lucidity?
      Sure. Though I'm not personally comfortable with the amount of "basic" awareness -- almost intentional distraction -- used in SSILD, anything that manages to keep your mind active and focused through the WILD transition would be helpful. In other words, though SSILD doesn't intentually encourage it, self-awareness will very likely come along for the ride...
      Last edited by Sageous; 01-19-2014 at 06:24 AM.
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      I’ve almost got it. Just a final word about the fundamentals:

      While I’ve never been much good at doing ‘techniques’, I did manage to have some lucid dreams. The reason, I think, was that I had a high sense of awareness in these dreams and high expectation at the time. I’m guessing that these 2 things were what ultimately instigated the ‘memory response’ that made me lucid; as you said previously, while memory cannot be practiced exclusively, you need to work on your access to it, which is powered primarily by self-awareness and passively by expectation. So really, with these 2 things in place, memory will automatically follow, and this self-instigating memory response will happen continuously in your dreams if self-awareness and expectation are consistently practiced/maintained?

      Thanks, I was just looking for your approval on this.
      Last edited by Eamo24; 01-19-2014 at 01:56 PM.
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    4. #304
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      Quote Originally Posted by Eamo24 View Post
      I’ve almost got it. Just a final word about the fundamentals:

      While I’ve never been much good at doing ‘techniques’, I did manage to have some lucid dreams. The reason, I think, was that I had a high sense of awareness in these dreams and high expectation at the time. I’m guessing that these 2 things were what ultimately instigated the ‘memory response’ that made me lucid; as you said previously, while memory cannot be practiced exclusively, you need to work on your access to it, which is powered primarily by self-awareness and passively by expectation. So really, with these 2 things in place, memory will automatically follow, and this self-instigating memory response will happen continuously in your dreams if self-awareness and expectation are consistently practiced/maintained?
      Well said! In general, yes, you have it just right, but I must add a small exception:

      Memory is always "there." Its files are always unlocked, waiting to be opened, and the strong presence of your self-awareness, of your waking-life "You," will indeed make accessing memory -- opening those files -- potentially as easy as it is in waking-life. All true.

      But memory will never "automatically follow" anything, because by its passive nature it does not have a "follow" function. It is there for the accessing, and conscious access in dreams becomes "switched on" with lucidity, but it is still up to you to do the accessing. For instance, with low-level lucidity, it is still quite possible to be aware that you are dreaming, but your self-awareness is weak enough that you forget to access memory and allow your dreaming mind to continue to do the bulk of the accessing, prohibiting dream control and probably shortening your time in a LD while also diminishing the experience.

      So yes, I think you have understand the concept well, but keep in mind that memory is not a thing that wants to come to you; you must go to it.
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      I think Tholey's Reflection-Intention technique is expectation/intention, since we are doing it during the day(building expectation), and when doing the RC part, start visualizing what would we do if we became lucid(with the intention of becoming lucid)(intention).
      What do you think? Do you recommend it? Does it effect the self awareness training?
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      I think you are mostly right saying that Tholey's Reflection-Intention technique is expectation/intention. Expectation/intention encompasses much more than just Tholey's reflection/intention, however, so they are not quite equal. I guess if you diagrammed it, reflection-intention would fall within expectation/intention's circle.

      Combining RC's with expectation-stimulating visualization might be a slight extra step to the stuff Tholey talked about, but it certainly follows the same theme; and of course it could be done without negatively effecting your self-awareness practice -- you probably will find it helps!

      So I guess i would recommend it, if it works for you, and you don't find yourself forgetting the reasons for your RC's and RRC's by making visualizations a priority.
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      Tholey Reflection-Intention directly seeped into my dreams pretty quickly (flying, and defeating once and for all those power lines which always blocked my access to the sky), and I think was also partially responsible for my first few LDs. I actually did the LaBerge modified version of it described in ETWOLD and ACILD (A Course In Lucid Dreaming).
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      Hi Sageous,

      I was just wondering about something:

      Some mornings, I would wake up after a really vivid NLD. After waking up, I would be in a dreamy daze and wouldn’t remember anything from the previous day, or what I was going to do that day. After a few minutes of getting up, I try to remember things again; I remember what happened yesterday, what I need to do today…..it all quickly comes back. Simultaneously, self-awareness also increases; my sense of self returns and I realize everything; it all quickly returns as leave behind the dreamy daze I was just in.

      Does this have anything to do with what you mean about unlocking self-awareness and memory in dreams? Like in a lucid dream, should you try to do the same thing as when you wake up -- try to remember everything, so your full memory comes back to you?

      Maybe it’s why they say that lucid dreaming is like ‘waking up’ in dreams.

      Thanks.
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      ^^ Cool. This is the second time today I could gather an entire response into one single word:

      Yes.

      But I can never just leave it at that...

      This awakening you describe is indeed the same process that you experience when becoming self-aware in a lucid dream; except that it is sort of done in reverse... kind of fitting, I suppose.

      By reverse I mean this: During a dream, your memory is unavailable, and everything in your (recently NLD) dreamscape is "real," and your dream body senses are thoroughly regaled with apparently valid input. So the two bits that are with you upon (actually) waking in the morning -- available memory and a brief moment of morning pause where you automatically take a moment to "fill in" the details of your reality -- are missing. In a sense, during a dream you are in a pre-assembled reality, with no hint that anything needs to be remembered, so you must make an extra effort to remember who you are, where you are, and that your actual sleeping body is somewhere else. This extra effort, this intentional gathering of self-awareness, is pretty much the opposite of the instinctual, memory-charged infusion of self-awareness that rejoins you in the morning, reminding you without effort who you are and where you are.

      But you are correct. When you are able to make that effort, able to remember during a dream, you achieve the same results as those which are achieved naturally for you every morning. So becoming lucid is indeed nothing more than waking up, with the same end results, consciously speaking, though during the dream you must do manually what your body does for you naturally every day.

      I'm not sure that made any sense at all, but suffice it to say that this response can be reduced to a near perfect tl;dr:

      Yes.
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      Hi Sageous,

      I just had some questions about self-awareness:

      I’ve been trying to include self-awareness in reality checks, I would usually wonder where I was a few minutes ago, what I’m doing now, what day it is etc. I can see the value of asking these questions in a dream, helping you confirm that you are in fact dreaming, however, I was just a little confused as to how the RRC in itself helps with lucidity.

      So I had 2 questions:

      1. I know you mentioned that self-awareness is about always knowing your place in reality, the effect you have on it, and it on you. But is there also a level of ‘questioning’ with the RRC, making it easier for you to determine what state you're in?

      2. Is it at all similar to regular reality checking, in that once it becomes a habit it begins to take place in your regular dreams?

      Thanks in advance

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      Hi Eamo! Here are two answers; I hope they help!

      Quote Originally Posted by Eamo24 View Post
      So I had 2 questions:

      1. I know you mentioned that self-awareness is about always knowing your place in reality, the effect you have on it, and it on you. But is there also a level of ‘questioning’ with the RRC, making it easier for you to determine what state you're in?
      Well, the RRC actually isn't meant to help you determine your state. That's what traditional RC's are for, and why you ought to be doing them. No, the Reverse Reality Check is an exercise to help you develop your self awareness, and when doing it you should already have a feel for the state you are in. So I guess the answer is no, but as long as I'm here, I will say that you should keep the level of your questioning as simple and straightforward as possible, so that you spend more time answering the question than forming it.

      2. Is it at all similar to regular reality checking, in that once it becomes a habit it begins to take place in your regular dreams?
      Yes. In fact, should RRC's become second nature to you, they may have a much more positive impact than RC's. This is because RC's fail regularly in dreams, but RRC's won't fail because they are not a test but an affirmation. In other words, you are not actually checking anything when doing a RRC, but rather taking a moment to consider your relationship with your local reality, and remembering where you just were and where you will soon be. The state of mind a RRC welcomes is one of self-awareness, and if you perform one sincerely during a dream, you will likely find yourself both self-aware and quite aware that you are in a dream... aka, lucid!

      I hope that made sense; if not, please let me know, and I'll try again.
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      Yes that makes sense. So if you were in the dream state, and possessing a strong sense of self, and memory of where you were, where you’re going etc. it would make sense that you could easily identify your ‘immediate environment’ as that of a dream.

      So I had a few more questions:

      1. Is it dissimilar from something like a continuous RC of testing memory? I was just wondering how the sense of ‘self’ comes into the equation, or is it that self-awareness and memory are very inter-linked anyway?

      2. Also, if someone was to build self-awareness using the RRC, but did not know about lucid dreaming, would they still find themselves lucid in dreams? Or maybe this is why expectation is needed?

      Thanks
      Last edited by Eamo24; 04-19-2014 at 12:21 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Eamo24 View Post
      1. Is it dissimilar from something like a continuous RC of testing memory? I was just wondering how the sense of ‘self’ comes into the equation, or is it that self-awareness and memory are very inter-linked anyway?
      Okay, let me repeat: a RRC is not a RC. I guess I should have named it something else! Reality Checks are simple state tests, where you do some task while asking if this is a dream. You cannot test memory with an RC at all, because that is not part of its formula (though you can and certainly should add a reminder to remember each time you RC). Also, I'm not sure what you mean by continuous RC, but they are really not a "continuous" sort of thing; once you've confirmed your state, the RC is done. If you are trying continuously to question your state you will either feel a bit silly or fall into an odd condition of delusion... and yes, from that you can see that I tend to disagree with the folks who suggest that you spend your entire day assuming everything is a dream, or that nothing is real, as these are assumptions that you instinctively know are false, so doing such an exercise will simply be an act of lying to yourself, and that is no help to lucidity at all.

      In case I misunderstood, the same goes for RRC's. If you try to do a constant Reverse Reality Check all day long, you will likely get very confused (especially if you are sincere about it), and also the very point of RRC's (gaining-self-awareness and remembering) will be lost in a sea of rote, useless questioning (i.e., what was I doing 15 minutes ago? Oh yeah, asking what I was doing 15 minutes ago! And so on...).

      Try to value RC's and RRC's for what they are, respectively, and practice them both as the useful and different tools for LD'ing that they are. Even do them at the same time, if you can. But try to understand that they are truly different exercises, and why.

      The RRC is an exercise meant to build up your sense of self; sense of self does not come into the equation in a RRC, it is the equation. Just as you are practicing RC's to test your state, you are practicing RRC's to strengthen your self-awareness. Yes, if you are self-aware, memory is much easier to access (for both retrieval and recording), so in that sense they are linked, but keep in mind that memory is an information source for consciousness, and not an active participant in consciousness. In other words, memory is linked to everything, but is more the fuel for LDing, with self-awareness and expectation/intention being the engines.

      2. Also, if someone was to build self-awareness using the RRC, but did not know about lucid dreaming, would they still find themselves lucid in dreams? Or maybe this is why expectation is needed?
      No, they likely would not. As you noted already, though self-awareness is the primary aspect of LD'ing, it is not the only aspect. There are plenty of very self-aware people who don't remember their NLD's, much less desire LD's; they simply are not interested in being self-aware in a dream. You do indeed need to have some expectation/intention in place to successfully lucid dream.

      And yes, "accidental" LD's can occur, and a powerfully self-aware person might be better equipped than someone who lacks self-awareness to recognize or enjoy the state when it happens, but that accident was likely a trick of timing, consciousness, or chemistry, and not a result of self-awareness practices.
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      Hi Sageous,

      Thanks for clarifying things. Yes I’m not sure that ‘continuous RC’ is a common term, I presumed it was a ‘method’ used by many lucid dreamers, whereby you would increase the frequency of your reality checks to the point that it becomes a general way of living, and I just thought that the RRC was ‘similar’ in nature to this concept, in that you would spend most of your time considering your interaction with your immediate locale; sorry about the confusion .

      Anyway, great advice! I can definitely see the workings of self-awareness and memory in a lucid dreaming sense. While I do occasionally practice the RRC, I’m not sure how high my sense of self-awareness would be in a general sense (it’s probably very hard to measure!) however, I’ve often found that when I do become lucid in a dream, the level of self-awareness attained as a result really reflects my waking life sense of self, with a broad memory of reality; it usually, though, takes a substantial spark of awareness to instigate it. So I can see why it would be so important and how it can really help you to trigger an influx of memory.

      Regarding the workings of self-awareness and memory, I’ve often thought of the phenomenon as being like when you’re highly involved with a particular task, you tend to lose track of (and memory of) the day, needing to recall the events leading up the task, in order to bring back the context of the day, so you know what to do next, and to get a better ‘feeling’ for your place in the day. I’m not sure if this makes sense.

      Anyway, happy Easter!
      Last edited by Eamo24; 04-21-2014 at 01:07 AM.
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      Hi Sageous! I just wanted to take a moment to say thank you again for all of your great tutorials and one on one advice. You were instrumental in setting me on a path towards better self-awareness (journey continues), in both waking and dreaming. I feel that your advice is what has provided me, on many occasions, a strong level of waking memory when I become lucid.

      Thank you very much Sageous!
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      Quote Originally Posted by fogelbise View Post
      Hi Sageous! I just wanted to take a moment to say thank you again for all of your great tutorials and one on one advice. You were instrumental in setting me on a path towards better self-awareness (journey continues), in both waking and dreaming. I feel that your advice is what has provided me, on many occasions, a strong level of waking memory when I become lucid.

      Thank you very much Sageous!
      Here here!

      As a reminder to lucid beginners (from another beginner), *keep up the awareness and the daytime work*, even in dry spells, even when recall is low. Because when you get your sleep schedule and/or your recall issues resolved, your awareness will be waiting for you once your dreaming returns. This has happened in the last 4 nights for me after near to a month of less than satisfying recall with short or low-awareness lucids, all of a sudden in 4 days I've had amazing lucid, semi-lucid, and just plain fun and vivid normal dreams. I've kept up my day work every day despite the poor dreaming spell and now I'm glad I did.

      This last night I was very wakeful for various reasons for several hours, and when I finally approached sleep I could *feel* the dreams swarming around me, the images presenting themselves practically begging to be allowed to form into dreams. I had sequence of short but fun dreams some of them lucid I think, some semi-lucid, some non-lucid, but all interesting. I think these were actual WILDs or about as close to them as I've gotten yet, with either no or very very short discontinuity and instantly recognizing the dream as soon as I entered it.

      The point of this again is: keep building self-awareness, never stop, never quit! There *will* be a time when it finally starts paying off, the investment is well worth it!

      (And the other lesson is perhaps: some wakefulness during the night can really boost dreaming, long WBTBs can result in awesome dreaming, that slow slow fade into sleep can really help you enter the dream aware).
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      Hi Sageous,

      About the RRC, I’ve been trying to do it on and off for the last while, but I’m not sure if I’m doing it correctly. What I normally do is this:

      Every now and then, I would just stop and think about what I’ve done all day, what I’m doing now, and what I’ll probably be doing later. I try to do all this in one emphatic mental effort, taking a minute or two to just consider it all. It’s kind of hard to describe, I mean, it’s not that I think about particular events throughout the day, it’s more of an all-encompassing consideration, like just remembering my ‘place’ in the day, if this makes any sense. It can be difficult to do sometimes.

      I’m no expert, but whenever I do an RRC like this, it does feel effective (I mean having a good sense of your presence in all you've been doing), so do you think this is basically the right way to do it? Thanks.
      Last edited by Eamo24; 05-22-2014 at 04:46 PM.

    18. #318
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      ^^ First, Eamo, if what you're doing feels effective, and enhances your self-awareness, you must be doing something right, right?

      That said, I think your RRC might work a little better with regard to preparing you for LD'ing if you tighten it up a bit. Instead of contemplating what you did all day, try to limit your review to what you did just a few minutes ago. Same with the future; try to just think about what you'll be doing in a few minutes. And don't forget to also consider where you are right now, what you're doing right now, what impact you are having on your immediate surroundings, and its impact on you.

      Since a dream is very much a "here & now" event, there is some sense in trying to make your RRC a "here & now" event as well -- or as close to that as you can get. Also, it's good to try to keep your interaction with reality relatively simple (i.e., try not to think about you place in the universe, but just your local reality), but I think you already understand that bit.

      So, though the exercise you are doing seems a good one, will certainly be a good assist in developing your self-awareness, and is worth continuing in its own right, it might not hurt to downsize the time frames of your review to make it amenable to a lucid dreaming context.
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      Hi Sageous,

      Thanks for all your advice so far, it’s been a real help!

      I just had some final questions (for now at least! )

      I’ve had a few lucid dreams where I just *knew* I was dreaming, with no need for an RC. They were just like spontaneous or natural lucid dreams. I’m not sure how they happened - maybe something in the dream was just so odd that it sparked my memory and self-awareness to let me know that I was dreaming…

      …I’m guessing that if you were in a dream and just became ‘self-aware’ for whatever reason, you would obviously know you’re dreaming!

      1. So I understand that the RRC is not an RC, but would it be right to say that the RRC is basically a way of getting some self-awareness into the dream state, so that you can know you’re dreaming? (a bit like a “reminder” to be self-aware, thanks to continuous habitual practice?).

      2. You say that building self-awareness with the RRC takes years of practice. Is this really true?! On a purely basic level, wouldn’t it take, say, a few weeks for the ‘habit’ of doing the RRC to start happening in dreams, like reality checks?

      3. If you practice the RRC, say, every hour or so, between these times are you still ‘building’ self-awareness, I mean, is the point of the RRC that you become self-aware periodically, or do you also develop an overall sense of self-awareness from doing this (maybe I misunderstand it )?

      Sorry about all these questions, Sageous ! Just trying to put the puzzle together! Thanks for your time!
      Last edited by Eamo24; 05-25-2014 at 05:52 PM.

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      First, Eamo, keep in mind that those LD's you are having are very likely neither spontaneous nor natural, but rather the result of a mindset you've developed through your daytime work, your expectations/intentions, and the fact that LD'ing is currently simmering nicely on a front burner of your psyche.

      In other words, develop your self-awareness and memory (that daytime work), keep positive thoughts of your future lucid adventures high in your mind, and you will find yourself simply having LD's without apparent effort during the dream. They might feel spontaneous or natural, but they actually are the result of your hard work and energetic contributions, whether or not you consciously acknowledge that at the time. Properly prepare your mind, and all those techniques and tricks (i.e., RC's) will seem unnecessary come dreamtime! ... That is sort of the theme of this thread, BTW.

      Now, though I might already have answered them, here are some responses:


      Quote Originally Posted by Eamo24 View Post

      1. So I understand that the RRC is not an RC, but would it be right to say that the RRC is basically a way of getting some self-awareness into the dream state, so that you can know you’re dreaming? (a bit like a “reminder” to be self-aware, thanks to continuous habitual practice?).
      I do appreciate it when the questions come with their own answers! Yes, the RRC is meant to spur your self-awareness, and to ultimately remind you that you are directly connected with your world (and, more importantly, your dream world), and it with you. Though this attitude of non-dualism or monism is crucial to successful LD'ing -- especially the advanced stuff -- it has been a generally forgotten ingredient in the soup of techniques brewing these days; the RRC was an effort to rectify that.

      2. You say that building self-awareness with the RRC takes years of practice. Is this really true?! On a purely basic level, wouldn’t it take, say, a few weeks for the ‘habit’ of doing the RRC to start happening in dreams, like reality checks?
      It's really true, but it's also really not as bad as it sounds!

      Properly building self-awareness with any tool takes years of practice. But it isn't like you have to work for a decade with zero self-awareness, and then all at once you graduate into a world of self-awareness. No. As you work toward a higher goal of frequent, accessible, self-awareness, you will develop skills that spur the condition more easily, and you will enjoy bouts of self-awareness fairly quickly. In other words, yes, it will take years to develop a mature, self-aware consciousness, but the side-effects that accompany the journey include plenty of self-aware moments and, hopefully, plenty of LD's.

      Also, yes, the habit (I don't like that word) of RRC's will likely help you become lucid, especially if you take that habit (still don't like it) into your dreams with you. But that is, for me, more a welcome side-effect than a goal of the RRC. In other words, just like RC's, if you perform your RRC's in waking-life properly you will not need them in the dream. Oh, and by "properly" I emphatically suggest that you avoid letting them become rote or habitual -- they must always be accompanied by a sincere sense of wonder, of deep interest, or else they will not work, short or long term, in your dreams or out.

      3. If you practice the RRC, say, every hour or so, between these times are you still ‘building’ self-awareness, I mean, is the point of the RRC that you become self-aware periodically, or do you also develop an overall sense of self-awareness from doing this (maybe I misunderstand )?
      The simple answer to this is "Yes."

      If your RRC's are done well, and made a part of your everyday life, they will indeed help you develop an overall sense of Self; of self-awareness. Of course you will need much more than just them but, curiously, they tend to lead you toward other self-awareness-inducing habits, like -- for instance -- thinking about what you're really saying during conversations, or noticing the potential consequences of your actions before you do them (it's a pretty cool sense, BTW!). So, yes, the RRC's front-end goal is to give you a "moment" of self-awareness, but over time it might serve as a tool for much more!

      Sorry about all these questions, Sageous! Just trying to put the puzzle together!
      No worries; I'm happy to help. This is a remarkably complex puzzle, part of the greatest puzzle of them all, I think. It is a journey that I am years from completing myself, so I certainly understand the need for questions & answers. And, on a selfish note, rattling off these answers is good mental exercise, so I really don't mind the questions!

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    21. #321
      Please, call me Louai <span class='glow_008000'>LouaiB</span>'s Avatar
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      Hello Sageous ,

      Been a while since I've been active in this forum
      I think I'm getting better at self awareness. Though MILD is my main technique, I'd love to have a more powerful sense of self awareness if it grants me higher quality LDs. Of course I've asked you before about all of this, and I'm not gonna roll the same ball again. I've been doing RRC exactly as it should be done, and I'm getting more and more used to it, but I'm not feeling any changes, like I'm not feeling that I'm getting better at it. Is it because I'm doing it wrong or is it because it's a skill, like others, for instance art skills, that you get better at without actually feeling any improvement.
      So I consider my existence in this world, simply go through the idea that I am alive and conscious, and interacting with this world. But this makes me wonder why is this particular thought so special? Of course as you've explained to me, it stimulated parts of the brain that serve a benefit in increasing the quality of LDs, and also inducing them. I guess it's like counting or singing, which induce different parts of our brain automatically without us feeling it. Surely the idea of using self awareness training (RRC) for this purpose would be useless if we don't build a tendency to unconsciously 'perform' it without conscious effort, or in other words, make it a 'habit' that will persist during our dreams.
      OK great, this is a sweet deal, but I just can't stop this feeling that lingers through my bones telling me this information has a weak scientific foundation. Our knowledge of brain functions is still vague, and thus this complex procedure involving self awareness can't be proven true, not yet. And in the other hand, it may not be true at all. Maybe it is other factors from this procedure that causes results, not the actual self awareness part. Of course you might disagree, and I am surely no expert, and I'd trust your word more than mine, and frankly the self awareness technique seems to be the only technique that promises such great results.
      Trust me, LDing is the thing I want most in this world, and surely it's quality is very very crucial, and what I'm about to do might change my whole LDing future experiences, but having no other way to achieve such quality except a technique which isn't very clear in it's cores, worries me a lot and makes me feel a great deal of despair.
      Surely I didn't come here to rant. I just want to ask you, how sure are you about this? I'm willing to go all the way if you want me to and are sure I'll get the promised results (of course if I do it right)(and I understand it takes years and years of practice, and I am ready and willing), and if you can provide any possible cognitive clues indicating this technique's possible validity, that'll really ease my mind.

      This is an important step for me, really.

      Thank you for any help you might provide
      Last edited by LouaiB; 06-02-2014 at 01:51 PM. Reason: spelling
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    22. #322
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      Welcome back, Louai!

      Though your post makes some good points and I think I can see your case for concern, I notice that you might still not have a clear understanding of self-awareness or the RRC's. So there may still be room for encouragement by me and a further place to go for you. Here are some specific responses that I hope will help:

      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      I think I'm getting better at self awareness. Though MILD is my main technique, I'd love to have a more powerful sense of self awareness if it grants me higher quality LDs.
      Self-awareness is not about quality, period. Yes, if your self-awareness is strong in a dream, you have an opportunity to improve that dream's quality, but that is not why you must develop it. Self-awareness literally equals lucidity, and it is just as important to have it with you when practicing MILD as it is when attempting a WILD. Or a DILD... or whatever other "ILD" they've come up with.

      I think you know this, but let me clarify anyway: self-awareness is not a technique; it is the state of mind that makes us human, that defines our sentience, that allows you to ask questions like "Who am I?" and "Is this a dream?" Master your sense of self-awareness, and you will never even need a technique to become lucid.

      The RRC is a technique, one that offers a small step toward briefly gathering self-awareness, and perhaps help you become self-aware more easily in a dream (more in a bit), but it is by no means all you need. Self-awareness is a very big deal, by every measure; there is no trick or technique to magically summon it. You must work slowly, steadily, and positively on developing it yourself, and sometimes the rewiring involved can take quite a bit of effort!

      I've been doing RRC exactly as it should be done and I'm getting more and more used to it, but I'm not feeling any changes, like I'm not feeling that I'm getting better at it. Is it because I'm doing it wrong or is it because it's a skill, like others, for instance art skills, that you get better at without actually feeling any improvement. So I consider my existence in this world, simply go through the idea that I am alive and conscious, and interacting with this world.
      Well, you're not doing your RRC's exactly as suggested. When doing an RRC, you should be asking three simple questions: where you were a few minutes ago, where you will be in a few minutes, and where you are right now, and while asking those questions, really wonder about your interaction with your immediate reality.

      Try not to consider things as big as your "existence in this world," or as abstract as things like "I am alive and conscious." Instead, wonder about the effect that things you have just done or said have had on others, or perhaps about the effect some action you are planning will really cause, or maybe about what kind of impact your presence right now is having on your local reality, or it on you. For example: Think about that conversation you just had with your friend an hour ago, and what effect your words might be having; think about the game you're going to play in a few minutes, and about the effect that time spent will have on you, and on your day; and think about yourself, perhaps sitting here at your computer, minding the Web, and touching other people's lives with your posts, and you with theirs, perhaps think about the impact you are having just by being present in the room you happen to be in at the moment, and wonder about its impact on you (there always is one). And while you are thinking, try to wonder, simply, and not intellectually -- just absorb the presence of each moment you're considering, and let its meaning find you, if it can... don't parse information, or lend definitions, or try any cause-and-effect logic; just wonder!

      Above all else, don't make this wondering something that encompasses the whole universe; when you start wondering about your place in "everything," you are actually reducing your self-awareness by elevating the status of your surroundings. If you make everything else too important, you forget your self, and doing this will do exactly what you do not want to do during a dream.

      Keep in mind that you are not developing a specific skill here, so there isn't a zero-sum exchange of results for effort. You are developing a state of mind, nurturing better access to a part of you that already exists. As you progress you will likely see results (i.e., possibly not needing techniques to LD anymore -- more in a sec)), but those results won't come in the form of new skills or talent, but in an improvement in the nature of your relationship with reality, that reality being in dreams or waking life.

      Also keep in mind that this is pretty hi-end stuff I'm talking about here. Do RRC's, and RC's, correctly and you should find your WILD or MILD practice easier to do, and with more consistent positive results...no promises, though; results that always depend on your input can only be guaranteed by you, and not me (or anyone).

      But this makes me wonder why is this particular thought so special?
      It is special for a lot of reasons, but for LD'ing specifically it is special because it helps you to remember, during the dream, that this place, this world, is You, and that the interaction between you and it is perfect -- everything around you is created by you, everything you do and think will influence it, and you will be influenced by it -- you and your dream are all just one body of thought. This is also known as non-dualistic perception, which I feel is critical to successful LD'ing.

      Of course as you've explained to me, it stimulated parts of the brain that serve a benefit in increasing the quality of LDs, and also inducing them. I guess it's like counting or singing, which induce different parts of our brain automatically without us feeling it. Surely the idea of using self awareness training (RRC) for this purpose would be useless if we don't build a tendency to unconsciously 'perform' it without conscious effort, or in other words, make it a 'habit' that will persist during our dreams.
      Then I explained poorly.

      Yes, one benefit of making a habit (I hate that word) of RRC's might make them "happen" during a dream, and that is a good thing; just as it is a good thing with regular RC's. So yes, RRC's do have a potential to induce LD's. But, just as with regular RC's, that induction is only a happy side-effect, and one BTW that can lead just as easily to false LD's about doing a RRC and being lucid as they can to doing a RRC that gets you lucid.

      No, the core purpose of RRC's is to allow you a quiet moment of self-awareness a few times a day, to help get your mind comfortable with this sort of introspection. Yes, you are triggering parts of your brain in ways that it would not normally be triggered, but that effect is far more global than just stimulating certain centers, or getting a couple of synapses to fire regularly, This exercise helps exercise the nebulous, incredibly complicated, remarkably unmapped brain circuitry that is the engine of your waking-life self-awareness. If you are able to exercise that process to the point where you find yourself easily self-aware many times a day -- or perhaps, say, you start considering the consequence of your words and actions before you say or do things -- you will be rewarded with an accessible state of mind that will help you LD (and do many other things) without ever once having a RRC happen in your dream.

      This is a very important bit...if I explained poorly again, let me know and I will try one more time!

      OK great, this is a sweet deal, but I just can't stop this feeling that lingers through my bones telling me this information has a weak scientific foundation. Our knowledge of brain functions is still vague, and thus this complex procedure involving self awareness can't be proven true, not yet. And in the other hand, it may not be true at all.
      A weak scientific foundation? Are you kidding me? The real question here is whether there is a scientific foundation for any of this stuff at all! And of course the next, and perhaps more valid, question to ask is if that even matters.

      When you learned how to walk, to run, to ride a bicycle, to read, to fall in love, did you expect a scientific explanation for those things as well? Developing self-awareness, to date, is about as unscientific a process and goal as there is, but for me it is also the most important goal you will ever set (with or without LD'ing).

      Scientifically proven or not, keep in mind that self-awareness is a proven fact simply because we can consider its existence. The thing that makes us human is self-awareness: The roots of religion, philosophy, science, and pretty much every other uniquely human endeavor, not only sprouted from self-awareness, but it was self-awareness that created them in the first place. If we didn't know that we "Are," then we would not know we "were," or "will be," either, and there would never have developed any curiosity or concern about our environment, our selves, and our futures. Without self-awareness, we would have gotten real good at hunting, maybe, but farming, technology, religion, philosophy, literature -- hell, anything that makes us human -- would not exist today were it not for self-awareness. Self-awareness defines us as a species, literally. So, whether or not its physical processes are ever proven, it clearly has proven its existence.

      The sad part of all this, of course, is that, as far as we've come, humans to this day are still very bad at actually exercising, recognizing, or understanding the importance of their self-awareness.

      Maybe it is other factors from this procedure that causes results, not the actual self awareness part. Of course you might disagree, and I am surely no expert, and I'd trust your word more than mine, and frankly the self awareness technique seems to be the only technique that promises such great results.
      Again, you may have this backward. The "actual self-awareness part" is the goal, and the coincidence of the RRC procedure happening in a dream -- and happening correctly -- is a welcome side-effect or secondary result. I hope I was not too vague about this in the past, but that is the case. And again, self-awareness is not a technique: I wonder if your problem with it, and with the RRC, is that you are considering it one. I suggest that you consider not doing that. You are not achieving great results by successfully enacting some "self-awareness technique;" you are achieving great results because you have done things to help increase or make more accessible your own potentials to consciously enjoy the very real state of self-awareness.

      So the RRC is not a self-awareness technique; it by no means "gives you" self-awareness. No, it is a technique meant to invite, nourish, and make familiar a state of self-awareness, this state being drawn from mental conditions and processes that have existed in you since day one.

      [A brief aside: If I misunderstood this and you do not have this backward, I hope you will still read what I have said and not immediately make defenses -- these things still hold their meaning if you fully understand that self-awareness is not a technique.]

      Trust me, LDing is the thing I want most in this world, and surely it's quality is very very crucial, and what I'm about to do might change my whole LDing future experiences, but having no other way to achieve such quality except a technique which isn't very clear in it's cores, worries me a lot and makes me feel a great deal of despair.
      Surely I didn't come here to rant. I just want to ask you, how sure are you about this? I'm willing to go all the way if you want me to and are sure I'll get the promised results (of course if I do it right)(and I understand it takes years and years of practice, and I am ready and willing), and if you can provide any possible cognitive clues indicating this technique's possible validity, that'll really ease my mind.
      Well, I hope I was a little clearer this time, and that you don't despair! I am obviously sure about self-awareness, and frankly I am confident that the RRC is a good technique for helping to develop it. The RRC is by no means the only technique, and likely there ultimately are no techniques that will bring you to heightened, consistent self-awareness on their own, and certainly not in a short amount a time. As you said, developing self-awareness is a lifelong pursuit, and you will likely never reach a state of constant self-awareness.

      That said, the RRC is a good step toward developing a personal system for summoning self-awareness when you need it (like during a dream, or perhaps during a fight with a dear friend). Even that small step might take years to develop, but it will happen much more quickly than complete self-awareness.

      At the risk of sounding like a mystic asshole, you will receive your cognitive clues as you progress. I can't tell you what they will be, because they will be specific to your nature and how you personally navigate your world. For me, LD-wise I have reached a point where things like dream control, stabilization, prolonging, and chaining through DEILD are done without a thought and certainly without any techniques -- self awareness during the dream is more than enough. Sure, I have a long way to go to reach my goals, especially in the memory department, but strong self-awareness has gotten me quite far. And that's just dreaming: waking-life-wise, self-awareness has become an invaluable tool for dealing with interpersonal issues, making conversation, learning new things, finding or at least imagining my "real" place in this world, and even with taking care of myself physically... learning to understand that "you are here," and that everything you do and say has an effect on your immediate reality, and it on you, will do wonderful things for your successful navigation of the mundane world.

      And speaking of mystic assholes: Keep in mind that, though I may have shifted things slightly and left much out in the name of streamlining the RRC to a WILD program, absolutely nothing I say here is new. These exercises, these questions, and the importance of self-awareness have been staples of deep thinkers in many disciplines (especially, of course, dream yoga and Tibetan Buddhist and other Eastern mysticism) for uncounted centuries... this stuff is by no means new, and has been practiced successfully in one form or another probably throughout history.

      This is an important step for me, really.
      It sure is, and just asking the question reflects the importance of that step to you -- congratulations!

      tl;dr: This time I got nothin' that will abbreviate these answers -- indeed, they could have been a whole lot longer. Suffice it to say that self-awareness is not a technique, but it is hands-down the most important ingredient in the LD'ing mix. Expect your work to develop it to last many years, but in the meantime use RRC's as a tool, but not the only tool, to help you briefly tap it.

      So that's what I got; I hope it helped clear things up. If not, then ask again, and I'll have another go (be warned that I'll probably keep saying the same things over and over) Also, I truly hope that I have not contradicted anything I said earlier, as that was not intended.

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    23. #323
      Please, call me Louai <span class='glow_008000'>LouaiB</span>'s Avatar
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      Thank you very much! OK I've think I've gotten out of the tough spot, if these few paragraphs ahead aren't more misconceptions from me :/

      So we get used to this state of mind were our environment triggers questions and thoughts in our mind we would never consider before if we haven't nourished our self awareness? Is this what nourishing self awareness is about? Having a state of mind that trigers questions when faced with certain situations that would otherwise be un-triggered if we haven't nourished this state of mind ,so in a dream they (these questions, or thoughts that we learn to have) would be hovering around us waiting for something to trigger them and trigger lucidity? It's like having a reflex to consider these questions when faced with situations that may trigger them?
      So we are not actually nurturing self awareness, we are training this state of mind that triggers these question (that if processed make us lucid) that depend on self awareness? So when you say self awareness comes after lucidity, but also training it triggers lucidity, you mean this state of mind triggers these questions which triggers lucidity, and so self awareness is also directly a part of the dream now(after becoming lucid)? So it's this state of mind that triggers lucidity, not the self awareness, but we still need self awareness because it is what let's us be able to ask and answer these questions in the first place? So self awareness is a tool. We aim to nurture using a mind set that depends on self awareness? So when you say nurture self awareness ,you mean nurture the mindset to always consider those questions, and those questions depend on self awareness. Right?
      If this is true then we always have access to self awareness even in non lucid dreams, or otherwise these questions would hover in our dream unanswered. But it's not about self awareness that makes us lucid, it's about these question and thought that make us lucid, and they are related and need self awareness.

      This paragraph was after writing a full 1000 word post and spending an hour trying to understand this whole process. So self awareness isn't a thing, it's a state of mind that considers these types of questions? It's like a critical considerate state of mind that activates with certain situations? What situations? What situations in a dream might trigger them? I assume a lot of these situations in a dream happen unconsciously, and triggers our lucidity automatically?
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    24. #324
      high mileage oneironaut Achievements:
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      Hmm. Apparently my answers and clarifications did more harm than good.

      Let me try one more time:

      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      Thank you very much! OK I've think I've gotten out of the tough spot, if these few paragraphs ahead aren't more misconceptions from me
      You may still be in a tough spot, Louai; let's see if we can't wriggle you a bit loose.

      Before I start, let me note that it seems you have simply exchanged the term "RRC" with "self-awareness." That is not a good idea. The questions and (far more important) the wondering of the RRC are the only tools here, and they are meant to help establish a moment of self-awareness -- that may sound like they are meant to trigger lucidity, but that is not really the case. I'll cover all this in detail below, but that needed to be said.

      Also before I start, I wonder if I might make a minor retraction. In the WILD class, perhaps during a moment of regrettable hyperbole, I might have implied that doing RRC's often enough (aka, habitually) would make them happen during a NLD, and then you will be lucid. If I said that or implied it I should not have, because that is not their primary purpose.


      Now:

      So we get used to this state of mind where our environment triggers questions and thoughts in our mind we would never consider before if we haven't nourished our self awareness? Is this what nourishing self awareness is about? Having a state of mind that triggers questions when faced with certain situations that would otherwise be un-triggered if we haven't nourished this state of mind ,so in a dream they (these questions, or thoughts that we learn to have) would be hovering around us waiting for something to trigger them and trigger lucidity? It's like having a reflex to consider these questions when faced with situations that may trigger them?
      No, no, no, and definitely not.

      More specifically:

      So we get used to this state of mind where our environment triggers questions and thoughts in our mind we would never consider before if we haven't nourished our self awareness?
      Our environment isn't triggering anything. The RRC is meant to provide an opportunity for you to allow yourself a moment of self-awareness, period. The environment is barely involved.

      If the RRC has you asking questions or finding answers that you never would have thought about otherwise, that's great; but that is not its primary purpose. Perhaps I chose the wrong word, but the nourishing you are doing here is more of a reminder that you are you, and that you are always interacting with reality (aka, self-awareness); you are not tricking your self-awareness to the surface through the trickery of clever questions, you are simply taking a moment to recognize its existence (and yours). And this recognition, were you to carry it into your dream, would be most helpful.

      Yes, as I said earlier the "habit" of doing RRC's, if it manifests in a dream, might help encourage a DILD. But, as I also said earlier, that is a happy side-effect, and not its core purpose. But even then the fact that the NLD environment has generated a RRC, it isn't actually triggering anything -- you still have to become lucid yourself.

      So we are not actually nurturing self awareness, we are training this state of mind that triggers these question (that if processed make us lucid) that depend on self awareness?
      Okay, aside from the fact that you actually are nurturing self-awareness: You are not training a state of mind that triggers anything. I highly recommend that you get the word "trigger" out of your mind, as it might help you to understand that the RRC is not a machine for causing lucidity on its own; indeed, it really only works well in a dream after you are lucid.

      I think you have may have misunderstood the nature of the questions you ask during a RRC. I suppose they could be triggers, but they are not triggers to "make us lucid," they are triggers to encourage a mental pause, that mental pause being one of wonder about our interaction with reality. The questions do not depend on self-awareness, they remind us that we are self-aware, or, rather, wondering about their answers reminds us of that.

      The questions do not depend on anything, and are not "triggered" into being asked; you must still remember to take a moment, a pause, to ask them and consider their answers. And again, these questions are quite fluid: you can ask them in different ways, or not ask them at all -- it is the answering, the wondering, that matters, and not the questions. Essentially, RRC is a simple suggestion that you take a moment to wonder about the fact that you exist, and your existence has a part in reality. It is not a magic button that produces lucidity, and its questions are just questions.

      Here seems a good place to remind you of the context of the RRC: It is being used to prepare you for doing WILD's. WILD's by definition assume that you never lose your waking-life consciousness throughout the WILD process. There is no need to trigger lucidity when doing a WILD, because you are supposed to be lucid the whole time.

      So when you say self awareness comes after lucidity, but also training it triggers lucidity, you mean this state of mind triggers these questions which triggers lucidity, and so self awareness is also directly a part of the dream now(after becoming lucid)?
      I never said self-awareness comes after lucidity, not even once. Self-awareness is lucidity, literally, so it must be present or else there will not be lucidity. You also cannot be self-aware before you are lucid, for the same reason (if you are self-aware, then you are lucid).

      Now back to this triggering: again, the RRC was aimed at WILD, so the "training" assumes you will be awake, and reasonably self-aware, throughout the WILD dive. That said, I suppose that if you are including RRC's for MILD practice, which I would recommend, you are still using it to create that "self-awareness pause," and it would not be much of a trigger. In other words, yes, if your habit of RRC's manifests in a dream, the mental prep from MILD will likely put it to good use and you might become lucid... but keep in mind you are becoming lucid because you remembered to ask the RRC questions, to wonder, and not because of some special property inherent in those questions.

      So it's this state of mind that triggers lucidity, not the self awareness, but we still need self awareness because it is what let's us be able to ask and answer these questions in the first place?
      That state of mind is self-awareness! And (again) yes, we still need self-awareness, not because it is "what lets us be able to ask and answer these questions," but because it is lucidity. Those questions are really, really, really not the important part in all this!

      And now:

      So self awareness is a tool.
      No, it is not; self-awareness is You. Hopefully you get that by now.

      We aim to nurture using a mind set that depends on self awareness?
      Okay, I can give that one a qualified yes, I think!

      However, we are not nurturing a mindset that depends on self-awareness, so much as one that remembers and welcomes the presence of self-awareness.

      So when you say nurture self awareness ,you mean nurture the mindset to always consider those questions, and those questions depend on self awareness. Right?
      Wrong. You are using the RRC (the questions) to nurture self-awareness, yes, but those questions are just questions, just words, and they do not depend on self-awareness. You could ask and answer them over and over without one wit of self-awareness, especially if you choose to simply ask some questions now and then, and then answer them straight up without really wondering about your interaction with reality.

      You must try to shake off the idea that the RRC is a technique that will make you lucid simply by doing it -- it won't. In truth, that technique doesn't exist in any form; lucidity comes from you, your grasp of the fundamentals, and never as the result of some trick. Techniques might help, but they are not the complete answer.


      Funny thing, though: self-awareness is not a technique, and if it is present in a dream, you will be lucid. No triggering, no technique, just you, aware of your Self, and aware that the entire dreamscape is a projection of that Self.


      If this is true then we always have access to self awareness even in non lucid dreams, or otherwise these questions would hover in our dream unanswered.
      No.

      Yes, we always have "access," after a fashion, to self-awareness, just as we always have access, after a fashion, to memory. But "access" and "presence" are two very different things. In a NLD, again by definition, you are not self-aware; your consciousness works just fine, but it does not remember who you are, where you were an hour ago, or that this place is not real. So, if you perform, from habit or expectation, a RRC in a NLD, there is an excellent chance that you will still fail to remember these things, and the questions will receive nice, expected answers from your dreaming mind, satisfying you but continuing the NLD. I can't say enough that the questions are not magic beans, Louai, they are simply aids in helping you take a moment to consider your interaction with reality.

      The RRC works best after you become aware you are dreaming. Take that pause and apply it to the fact that this "reality" is all yours, and you will find it much easier to navigate the dream, to remember, to stay lucid, and to attempt your desired goals.

      But, especially if you are doing MILD and have prepared yourself to recognize yourself doing a RRC (or RC, for that matter, as they both work the same in this context), RRC's can still help to make you lucid. In other words, if you design the RRC as a trigger for your memory during a NLD, then its performance might be enough to spark memory, stir self-awareness, and bring you to lucidity... but you must be doing MILD in order for this to happen; it will likely not happen on its own! Also, if you do use the symbol of a RRC to bring about lucidity, I suggest you still do a proper one after you are lucid; you might appreciate the results!

      But it's not about self awareness that makes us lucid, it's about these question and thought that make us lucid, and they are related and need self awareness.
      No. It is all about self-awareness! But I guess I've said that enough already. And hopefully by now I've made the point that, with that one MILD exception, these questions and thought do not "make us lucid." They may help a bit, in terms of encouraging more self-awareness in general, but the power to become lucid rests in us, and not in a question.

      This seems like a nice spot for this aside:

      If you do your RRC's often enough, and thoughtfully enough, you might eventually find yourself self-aware quite readily. As you become more and more accustomed to your state of self-awareness, you will likely find yourself "self-aware" in more and more moments of your life -- including dreams. Eventually RRC's will no longer be necessary, because you will have learned to remember that you exist, and that you have an influence on your local reality and it on you, without needing something to remind you. You will also be able to more easily maintain your self-awareness for longer stretches, avoiding the distractions that usually erase it; this will make LD'ing much, much easier.

      This paragraph was after writing a full 1000 word post and spending an hour trying to understand this whole process. So self awareness isn't a thing, it's a state of mind that considers these types of questions?
      No. It arguably is a thing, if by thing you mean the very real condition of consciousness that allows us to understand that we exist.

      It's like a critical considerate state of mind that activates with certain situations?
      No. That is what self-awareness is not, in fact, though it would be nice if it did activate with certain situations, and did not require our specific attention -- then maybe there would be a technique that will actually work on its own!

      What situations? What situations in a dream might trigger them? I assume a lot of these situations in a dream happen unconsciously, and triggers our lucidity automatically?
      Obviously, there are none, naturally. It sure would be nice if there were, though!


      tl;dr: Self-awareness is not a technique, and the RRC is not a trigger. Given that the RRC was created to assist in WILD, where waking-life self-awareness is assumed to be present throughout, the RRC is obviously doing something other than triggering self-awareness. I suggest you reread my last post (and maybe some of the other stuff on this thread) with that in mind, or rather without seeking techniques that trigger things, but simply understanding that self-awareness equals lucidity, and to have it on hand negates any need for techniques or triggers.

      I hope this time this was clear; I'm not sure how else I can say it...
      Last edited by Sageous; 06-04-2014 at 03:52 AM.
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    25. #325
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      Wow those are some really meaty recent posts Sageous, thanks for those!

      I think I "get" the RRC. My question is: let's say one is reasonably regular with the RRC: say, 10 spread throughout the day, every day. And let's say one does them properly. Then approximately how long should it take for there to be an increased sense of self-awareness in dreams? To the point where it kicks in and lucidity becomes more and more frequent? A year? 2? 5? 10? Say to get to a reasonably high percentage (say 50% or higher) that on nights where one wants to LD, one can.

      I feel that I have become *much* more self-aware in life over the last 9.5 months. I rarely stumble around in pure zombie mode, and on the occasions where I do, I usually catch myself pretty quickly and bring back my self-awareness. In fact, at those "zombie recovery" times I use the RRC as the way to bring the self-awareness back.

      I go back and forth on whether using a timer device for doing RRC is beneficial or not. I will certainly end up doing more RRCs throughout the day if I use a timer, but on the other hand, I wonder if there isn't some very beneficial upside from waiting until I'm "feeling the need" to do the RRC?

      Thanks for any thoughts on this...
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