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    Thread: WILD According to Sageous Q & A

    1. #501
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      ^^ First, Marzyciel, I highly recommend that you take a look at the DVA WILD class to which this thread is attached, if you haven't already. I think you might find it helpful. Now:

      Quote Originally Posted by Marzyciel View Post
      ...I can relax, focus on my intent, put my body to sleep, but I've only gotten to REM stage a couple of times (I feel my eyes moving rapidly and a vibratory sensation in my body). The thing is, when I'm attempting WILDs, I keep waiting for this transition to happen, and it demoralizes me quite a bit when I don't get it. Is it truly necessary for me to 'feel' in my body these sensations of REM in order to have a WILD?
      There is no need, ever, to concern yourself about "getting" to REM, much less feel sensations of REM. For that matter, I'm not even sure there are sensations of REM, so looking for them might be not just a distraction from your WILD dive, but a trip down a path that leads away from rather than toward your dream.

      REM is called REM because rapid eye movement can be objectively observed (by other people) during it. Rapid eye movement, as far as I know, occurs not on its own but as a result of your dream: During REM your eyes move because they are following the action of a dream -- in other words, if you are experiencing REM, then you are also dreaming. As a sort of extension to that, it would be very unlikely that you will feel your eyes moving during a dream/REM, because your eyes are naturally following imagery and action in your dream, so no unusual movement would gain your attention.

      So I'm not sure what is happening when your eyes move as you describe, but it might have nothing at all to do with REM. That movement, like the vibratory sensation you mentioned, are probably just some of the noise that can be experienced during a WILD, and you can, and should, ignore them. I'm not sure where you heard that it is truly necessary to experience body sensations like moving eyes and vibrations in order to complete a WILD transition, but in my opinion whoever said that is mistaken, and their advice best forgotten.

      The bottom line on this is no, it is not necessary at all, much less truly necessary, to feel these sensations in order to WILD. There is also no need to concern yourself about "getting" to REM, because REM comes with the dream... concern yourself only with getting to the dream, and your WILD will pass much more smoothly.

      Another quick question: sometimes, I start to have dreams/fragments of dreams in 'the back of my mind' so to speak, but never in my first person vision. I try to connect both, but it seems I can only choose to stare at empty darkness, or get lost in these imagethoughts without it trully become a dream. I feel that there are two reasons for that: 1) I do not feel disconected enough from my body, it always seems as if I'm having a more profound daydream and 2) To see images in my eyes from a WILD attempt seems like something I cannot mentally trespass, like a block or sticking point (a perfect analogy would be the four-minute mile: until 1954 nobody could run 1 mile in 4 minutes, but when Roger Bannister managed to do it, suddenly EVERYBODY could do it). Any comments on that?
      These "dreams/fragments" are very likely dreamlets, which are sort of random snippets of dream imagery that come and go as you straddle the fence between wake and sleep. They aren't really dreams, and, unless you have learned to use them to help you form your dream, it is probably best to ignore them, or at most give them a passing nod as mileposts on your way to the actual dream. In general, paying attention to dreamlets, or trying to connect to them, could prove to be an unnecessary distraction at least, and, because they occur before you have fallen asleep, they might lead you to either waking up fully or falling asleep non-lucidly, So leaving them be might be best, for now.

      As long as I'm here, here are a couple of quick thoughts about the two reasons you list:

      1) There is no need to feel disconnected from your body during a WILD, just as there is no need to feel connected to your body during a WILD. The only connection you should concern yourself with during a WILD is the one you're going to make with your dream; the rest of the stuff simply does not matter. Also, as long as you maintain your focus on the upcoming dream, there is nothing wrong with feeling like you're in a profound daydream along the way.

      2) If you can learn to not care about seeing images in your eyes (or anywhere) during your WILD's, I think that block you describe will quickly fade away. To use your analogy: Roger Bannister was first to do something that was inevitable; he didn't so much break open a barrier for others as he just happened to be the first guy on a path that mile runners were bound to travel. Also, he was probably always running just as fast as he could, and didn't give much thought to the 4 minute barrier; something to think about there, I think.
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    2. #502
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      Interesting, I was thinking LD is a place you go inside your mind, kinda like a road to some far away place. But your take on LD seems to be that it is in and of itself a state of mind, although a very distinct one from our daily lives. If that is so, all those aspects in your WILD classes (intent, mantras, RRCs) are not just intruments to maintain one aware of dreaming, or create willpower to dream, but also direct instruments to fine tune your mind to that mental frequency...in that case, focusing on noises, vibrations, dreamlets and such are extremely counterproductive to dreaming, because they take you away from that mind state. Am I correct? In any case, thanks for the input, in my next WILD sessions I'll let those distractions simply dissipate instead of trying to read too much into them.

    3. #503
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      ^^ Are you correct in your assessment? Sure.

      Though I'd probably take issue with some of what you described (i.e. since lucidity equals the presence of your waking-life self-awareness in a dream, I would say that the state of mind necessary for LD'ing is the same as the self-aware state of mind in waking-life), it seems that you've nicely nailed my point of view on all this, as well as what I'm trying to teach in the class.

      Thanks!
      Last edited by Sageous; 09-25-2016 at 10:34 PM.

    4. #504
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      Hi Just a newbie in Lding, Recently read through the whole wild sessions, and found the really helpful, my sleeping schedule is a bit of a mess at the moment because of baby, but it was super helpful anyway and one day i will have the chance to properly try them out, i have started wondering alot about how memory works maybe there are some good articles about them somebody could recommend?
      Have been working on some reality, or maybe memory checks.
      For example going to coffee shop with a friend and glancing around to see what other people in the shop might look like , or when i go for a walk taking notice of people there clothes and hair and tatoos and shoes etc etc etc. quite interesting what i found when i really started looking (green socks and pink shoes, what?) ,, and then after we leave will try and remember all the little details, and then a few hours later might try again.
      It has made me wonder about peoples memory, right now living in the city center about 300000 people live here, everyday when i leave the kids for school we will meet at least 300 people on the way, looking at all these people, will probably take alot of memory space or will my mind just block them out as useless information? Also theres more traffic and information all over the place always alot of information to take in, if my brain was taking all this in, will i be more forgetfull or lacking in other areas?
      so on the other hand my sister is living out on the country side no traffic and only flowers or houses to look at, going too the store she might meet 30 people, will she have a better memory then me later in life, because she is not filling her mind with all this information everyday? Or maybe my mind will be more trained?
      anyway thought it was interesting probably some studies about somewhere.
      also have been reading a text somewhere and after 5 min trying to visualize the word , and again after an hour see if i remember colour and everything.
      Thanks for your time.

    5. #505
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      Quote Originally Posted by oneironautics View Post
      ... i have started wondering alot about how memory works maybe there are some good articles about them somebody could recommend?
      Unfortunately I don't. Most of my knowledge in this department comes from the pre-internet era, via things like my education, experience, and many conversations with a couple of experts over the years. Sorry!

      Have been working on some reality, or maybe memory checks.
      For example going to coffee shop with a friend and glancing around to see what other people in the shop might look like , or when i go for a walk taking notice of people there clothes and hair and tatoos and shoes etc etc etc. quite interesting what i found when i really started looking (green socks and pink shoes, what?) ,, and then after we leave will try and remember all the little details, and then a few hours later might try again.
      That is an excellent exercise. It's not necessarily a reality check, but it does seem an interesting way to remind yourself about how many details your brain disregards as you wander through your waking-life reality. Such a reminder can be very helpful in developing your ability to pay attention to your local surroundings, including your surroundings during a dream. Such a reminder can also help with your self-awareness practice, if you are able to notice your Self among all those details (given that the Self seems to be the most commonly missed detail in waking life! ) Plus, of course, with enough effort you might just be able to do a little rewiring that enables your brain to notice and retain more information than it currently does, which will be helpful to your overall awareness, and perhaps even your general learning and recall processes.

      It has made me wonder about peoples memory, right now living in the city center about 300000 people live here, everyday when i leave the kids for school we will meet at least 300 people on the way, looking at all these people, will probably take alot of memory space or will my mind just block them out as useless information? Also theres more traffic and information all over the place always alot of information to take in, if my brain was taking all this in, will i be more forgetfull or lacking in other areas?
      so on the other hand my sister is living out on the country side no traffic and only flowers or houses to look at, going too the store she might meet 30 people, will she have a better memory then me later in life, because she is not filling her mind with all this information everyday? Or maybe my mind will be more trained?
      Here's how I see this process working:

      As you move through your local reality, your senses absorb far more information than is really necessary for you to successfully navigate that movement, including making sense of what it is you're navigating. So, instead of flooding your perception with all the information received and ultimately confusing you or, worse, allowing you to pay attention to things that should not be a priority (i.e., stopping in the street to focus on the words stamped on a manhole cover rather than notice a bus hurtling toward you), your brain discards most of the things you see, hear, smell, etc, leaving just those things that matter the most... meaning, yes, that your brain does indeed discard a whole lot of what it deems useless information so that you can stay focused on what matters.

      Ultimately, you will be supplied as much information as you can consciously handle or need, regardless of the amount of stimulus around you; and so too would your country-living sister: Believe it or not, you are probably retaining about the same amount of useful information that your sister does as she moves through the countryside. In other words, you might, say, pass 300 people on your city street, but you will likely only retain a memory of a couple of them, if any, and the complex activity around you will quickly become a blur of generality. Also, believe or not as well, there is just as much stuff going on in the country as in the city, if not occasionally more; it's just different stuff. A single tree or a field of flowers probably has far more individual points of stimulus than even the busiest of streets, not to mention that your sister probably knows many of the people she is passing, so her brain might be retaining more information than yours does as it passes anonymous pedestrians that won't expect you to remember that you saw them that day.

      So, no, I wouldn't expect that your mind would be better trained than your sister's because you live in a city, nor would her brain have more available space for future memory. Our brains do an outstanding job of filtering useless information and retaining just what we need (or what its programmed to assume we need, anyway), and more stimulus simply means more filtering.

      That said, if you train yourself to retain far more information than is deemed necessary by your memory's default settings, I think you might ultimately find yourself able to remember more later in life, rather than less. This is because you are not only teaching yourself to remember more, but also expanding your brain's capacity for memory retention (this is why we study, BTW)... and don't worry about filling it with too much information: as far as I know the brain's limits for memory have yet to be challenged, much less exceeded.

      ...also have been reading a text somewhere and after 5 min trying to visualize the word , and again after an hour see if i remember colour and everything.
      This is another excellent exercise, for a couple of reasons, but mostly because it will help you develop not only memory skills but visualization skills... very cool!
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    6. #506
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      Thanks for the help, that all makes so much sense, who needs books with all the clever DVA staff don't really read books but i like skimming articles and experiments .

      So i have been trying to focus on my DC's which is why taking notice to everybody around me but maybe should start thinking something like, The girl sitting opposite me is taller then me , and has bigger shoes then mine, and more tattoos then mine, so i remember myself.

      Makes sense about sister i guess we would be recieving about the same amount of information, but choosing what is most important, I remember one time she said something to me that stuck for years but i just didn't know what to do with that information, she said 'this type of tree has a sickness that blows in from denmark so alot of the trees in south sweden has it.... so i guess that is what she is more focused on :-)

      Thanks for the Super Job you do, and HAVE a GREAT WEEKEND
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      I've read your Session 2 : Timing. I am trying the water trick to wake my self naturally. I drink half glass water and sleep with the urge to drink more, So I always wake up after some hours of sleep(Mostly after a dream). How do I check that the specific WBTB time is best for me?

    8. #508
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      Quote Originally Posted by namit2saxena View Post
      How do I check that the specific WBTB time is best for me?
      It's easy to confirm an optimum WBTB time, because that optimum time will be helpful to having successful WILD's... In other words, when you've found the WBTB time that works best for you, you will know it! Unfortunately, you can only determine that optimum time by looking for it; I can't give it to you from here. Experiment with different amounts of WBTB times until you find the one that fits your specific needs.

      Also, I don't remember recommending that "water trick" you mentioned, and would generally advise against it. Tricks like that tend to become distractions that do more to interfere with an easy, calm processing of your WILD than they do to help with, say timing. With practice, you will learn to recognize the wake-ups that happen every night during your sleep cycle and be able to do a WBTB without any distracting tricks. Patience and attention trumps tricks every time, I think.
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      Hiya
      Maybe already covered but do you have anything to say about incredibly itchy nose when getting close to WILD? I get it the odd time. Needs more than just a bit of willpower and non-reactivity to get through without moving. If I do move of course the thing is to not make a big deal of it and stay settled but it can certainly prolong the journey

    10. #510
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      ^^ I have indeed already covered this, and the answer then is the same as the answer now: if your nose itches, then fergodssake, scratch it!

      Holding still is important in WILD, yes, but doing so at all costs can be counter-productive. For instance, the effort made to ignore or work past that itchy nose can be far more distracting than just scratching it and being done with it.

      The whole "holding still" concept has become almost a religious tenet on the forums these days, possibly to the detriment of WILD itself. Your WILD will still work just fine if you take a second to calmly scratch your nose; feel free to ignore the rule that you must hold still, no matter what the "rules" say!

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      I get that that's the thing to do if the impulse is strong and persistent rather than creating a battle with a movement urge. It can just sometimes occur when v close to WILD and moving slows the journey. Yet at other parts of the night if not aiming at lucidity I can turn over and move without it having much of an effect on my journey into sleep. On one hand it feels as though I need to draw my attention inwards and away from the sensory world, yet maybe it's possible to move a bit and not make much of it, thereby not connecting much attention to the senses...also I'm just curious about it as sometimes it's, "wow, there's a suddenly intensely itch nose, what's going on..."as I think of it I have had this sometimes in meditation on sits where I choose not to move. Tnks for feedback

    12. #512
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      How do I calm my mind when doing WILD?
      I have a problem with a lotsa thoughts coming and making me distracted from entering the dream , or relaxing at all.
      Also , do you know some good relaxing techniques?
      I had air thirst last morning, what do about that?

    13. #513
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      ^^ How to stay calm? That's a fairly vast question, given the number of answers available... but I'll give it a shot, of course!

      First, the part no one wants to hear: calming your mind, or staying focused on your dream rather than the myriad thoughts that scream for attention whenever the room gets dark and quiet is more the result of a decision than any particular technique. You must decide to stay focused on your dream, to ignore stray thoughts or noise like HI or vibrations, before any techniques can work. Once you choose to ignore distractions, paying attention to your WILD dive gets a lot easier. I know, I know, you've obviously already made that choice, right? Perhaps, but maybe there are parts of you that weren't listening, so it's time to make the choice a little more deeply. Once you've done so, here are a couple of things you might try:

      * Try creating a little metaphor to redirect those stray thoughts. Instead of allowing those thoughts to shower over you, imagine them flowing right past you in a softly bubbling stream. This will allow the thoughts to continue, but rather than distract they will merely pass by in a peaceful stream... this might sound hokey, but it can work!

      * Increase the strength of your mantra, either by making it more important to you and your goals for your dive, or perhaps just on the words you are repeating themselves. In other words, let the mantra fill in the spaces that stray thoughts tend to fill.

      * Pay attention to your breathing. Don't change your breathing, but simply notice it as it gently passing in and out of your body. If you combine this with your mantra (i.e., when I breathe in I say, "Here," and when I breathe out I say, "Now"), you might find yourself able to focus enough of your attention on something other than stray thoughts throughout your dive.

      * If all else fails, then just let the thoughts happen. Allow the thoughts to wander through your mind, but don't dwell on any of them. Threat them like any other sort of noise you might encounter, and let them pop in and pop out without paying any attention to them. This is probably what you are already trying to do, but this time you'll have the power of that decision to stay focused and not pay attention to random thoughts in place, so it should be much easier.

      Also:

      The best relaxation technique I know of is the 61-point relaxation technique. It's a little complex, but in your case that complexity might serve to occupy your mind enough to help ignore stray thoughts, so you kill two birds with one stone.

      I'm not quite sure what "air thirst" might be, though I'll assume it's something like shortness of breath or some other thing that makes your breathing feel uncomfortable. I would say that the thing to do here is to take a few deep breaths, and holding them for a second before slowly letting them out. Also, remind yourself that there is nothing wrong with you, and that your breathing is not becoming abnormal -- Aside perhaps from breathing becoming more relaxed, there is nothing about a WILD transition that should effect your breathing (your breathing is exactly as it would be if you were not doing the WILD, unless you consciously add something to it).
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      First, the part no one wants to hear: calming your mind, or staying focused on your dream rather than the myriad thoughts that scream for attention whenever the room gets dark and quiet is more the result of a decision than any particular technique. You must decide to stay focused on your dream, to ignore stray thoughts or noise like HI or vibrations, before any techniques can work. Once you choose to ignore distractions, paying attention to your WILD dive gets a lot easier. I know, I know, you've obviously already made that choice, right? Perhaps, but maybe there are parts of you that weren't listening, so it's time to make the choice a little more deeply.
      YES! This is the core truth. How many times have I been there myself, trying to decide: should I just give up and get up and start my day? Or dig deep and find that will to relax (don't let anybody fool you, relaxation is hard work and requires an iron will!), let go the inner chatter, get back to sleep, and go for my desired lucid dream. I tell myself, "this moment, this decision, right here, *this* is the practice. *This* is what it takes. Either gather the will to stop following thought chains and distracting fantasies and get down to the business of dreaming, or don't." Those times I have made the decision to get back to dreaming and implemented the required relaxation (and keep doing it, and keep doing it, and on and on until sleep and dream), I'm usually rewarded with memorable dreaming experiences.
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      Great advices, thank you guys.
      Honestly I indeed tried to make the thoughts pass through me, or make em happen , so they end quickly, just for me to get back to relaxing and waiting for the dream.
      But I cant relax, and tbh i had problems with relaxation and concentrating on the dream. I often end up being more awake than before ,and then i cannot even fall back to sleep. How do I find the golden headway for sustaining lucidity but also the ability to fall asleep ?

      Is it really does the job if I just keep having the dream the main priority?
      Last edited by Nefets; 03-30-2017 at 10:18 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Nefets View Post
      How do I find the golden headway for sustaining lucidity but also the ability to fall asleep ?
      Unfortunately, there's only one way: Practice, Practice, Practice!

      Eventually you will find a balance -- based on experimenting with timing, WBTB length, mantras, focus, etc -- that leads to your being able to consistently fall asleep with reasonable ease without losing touch with your self-awareness (aka, enjoy WILD transitions). But you will only get there with time, effort, and accumulated personal experience... there really are no shortcuts.

      Is it really does the job if I just keep having the dream the main priority?
      Yup!
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      And damn, I indeed had a lucid dream this morning, I think it was a successfull wild but I dont know for sure. I concentrated, did mantras ,and eventually i got in lucid.
      I forgot most of the dreams details though, like always.
      I have a really low lucidity , how do I fix that? I think the problem may be that my lucidity goes to a very low level by the time i reach the transition.
      I dont know if I can fall asleep with wake life lucidity, is it possible?

    18. #518
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      Quote Originally Posted by Nefets View Post
      And damn, I indeed had a lucid dream this morning, I think it was a successfull wild but I dont know for sure. I concentrated, did mantras ,and eventually i got in lucid.
      That's a good sign!

      Don't worry about whether you got lucid through WILD or not; what maters is that you got lucid, period... Many of my WILD attempts end in DILD's and I am quite content with that; perhaps you should, too!

      I forgot most of the dreams details though, like always.
      Well, that's not a great thing... Do you keep a dream journal? If not, you should think about doing so, because good recall is extremely helpful to successful LD'ing (and a DJ is the best first step toward good recall).

      I have a really low lucidity , how do I fix that? I think the problem may be that my lucidity goes to a very low level by the time i reach the transition.
      Unfortunately, there's only one way: Practice, Practice, Practice!

      I know it seems like I'm repeating myself, here, because I am. But I do believe that, after you get a substantial amount of LD's under your belt, and you've had time to develop your ability to gather self-awareness and memory during your LD's, you will find your yourself achieving higher levels of lucidity with relative ease. So, even if you still lose some self-awareness during your WILD transition (and most of us do, BTW), recovering it -- and, perhaps more importantly, remembering to recover it -- won't seem like such a problem.

      So, again, there are no shortcuts; these things take time. The best things in life -- and LD'ing for me is near the top of that list -- are never gained without time, effort, and, above all, patience. So: practice, practice, practice, and don't ever be concerned about your limited results now, instead look forward to the future big successes for which these little ones are preparing you.

      I dont know if I can fall asleep with wake life lucidity, is it possible?
      Since that is basically the definition of a WILD, I must say that of course it's possible -- and something to look forward to!
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    19. #519
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      It often happens in a dream that I turn into my sleeping position while standing and cant move properly, and then I wake up.
      What do do against it?

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      ^^ I'm not sure I fully understand your question, but it seems that what you experienced was a connection to your waking-life body.

      Lucid dreams often happen when you are very close, physically, to a waking state. So there you were, enjoying your LD, when suddenly that waking-life presence needed to make itself feel known, in the form of forcing your dream body into the posture that you remember you were using when you went to sleep. That recognition, by your dreaming self, led inexorably to your waking up because, well, you were basically completing the connection to your waking-life body.

      I don't think there is any need to do anything "against" this when it happens, because, unfortunately, this sort of situation indicates that you are likely too close to waking to do anything to keep it --and the end of your dream -- at bay. But you can still try, at least in the name of setting yourself up for a DEILD when the inevitable wake-up happens.

      Should this sort of thing happen again, I suggest that you relax and remind yourself that your dream body itself is not real, and any impression you might be receiving (like, that you're mimicking the posture of your waking-life sleeping body), is an illusion. If you can manage this, then you might be able to settle your mind back into your dream and avoid the wake-up that was otherwise inevitable. Plus, even if the wake-up must occur, you will be prepared to do a DEILD and return to the dream after it occurs.
      Last edited by Sageous; 04-09-2017 at 04:52 PM.
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      So I started to try WILD today this morning, I remembered this thread and your advice about determination to dream.
      So thats what I did, I had a mantra which I forgot now eh, and it really did help me diving deeper in relaxation,had some minimal hypnanogic's.
      Then at a point my whole body became tense, like if my whole body was placed under pressure ,or a heavy amount of energy was in my limbs. It was not SP I could move well and all that btw.
      So this is how far I got ,I wonder if you know what was that, was I in the right way to a successfull LD?

      Tomorrow I'll try to go as far as I can with staying still and concentrating, unfortunately I wont be able to try in the weekend so tomorrow is the last chance before weekend.

    22. #522
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      ^^ Thanks for sharing, Nefets! Here are a couple of thoughts:

      Quote Originally Posted by Nefets View Post
      So I started to try WILD today this morning, I remembered this thread and your advice about determination to dream.
      So thats what I did, I had a mantra which I forgot now eh, and it really did help me diving deeper in relaxation,had some minimal hypnanogic's.
      I think maybe that if you cannot remember the mantra you used during your WILD attempt, it might not have been quite meaningful enough. Your mantra ought to be important enough to both hold your attention and help you better focus on your LD'ing goals (even if the goal is only to stay aware throughout the WILD). That said, whatever you were repeating did seem to help; nice work!

      Then at a point my whole body became tense, like if my whole body was placed under pressure ,or a heavy amount of energy was in my limbs. It was not SP I could move well and all that btw.
      So this is how far I got ,I wonder if you know what was that, was I in the right way to a successfull LD?
      I don't know what that was, though it does sound like you might have been feeling your body becoming fully relaxed for sleep, and its strangeness might have just felt like tension, rather than actually being tension, if that makes any sense. In any case, the best choice to make, I think, would have been to ignore that tension as just so much noise, assume it will pass shortly, and above all take it as a sign that you are very close to sleep, and, finally, your dream (which you likely were!).

      So, yes, I would say that you were indeed well along to a successful WILD; just be sure next time to let stuff like that tension come and go without paying too much attention...

      Tomorrow I'll try to go as far as I can with staying still and concentrating, unfortunately I wont be able to try in the weekend so tomorrow is the last chance before weekend.
      Good luck! Also, don't worry about rushing things; it's better to take your time preparing for just the right time to WILD than it is to get in as many attempts as possible regardless of preparation.

      You probably have already, but if not, I hope you might set aside some time to take the WILD class to which this thread is attached; you might find it helpful.
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      my problem is i cant even enter the dream , i have always done the schemas method by nature thats why it would cause me so vivid but less lucid visions or dreamlets . You also mentioned a period after HI ends . how do you get to that ? Dont you just get hi and when its stable you try imagining the sensation of touching it and BOOM you are there

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      ^^ It sounds to me, Ahmedboy, that you might be leaning a bit too far toward technique, and in the process forgetting that a main goal of WILD is to fall asleep.

      I think you might not be entering the dream because, simply, you are not giving yourself time to fall asleep. The things I suggested in the WILD session 4: Forming Your Dreams thread are mostly meant to be done after you have fallen asleep, but find yourself with little or nothing in your dream content. With the exception of messing with HI (more in a sec) there was an understanding throughout that you are asleep and dreaming when the time comes to form your dreams... I guess I wasn't clear enough about that in the post.

      So, instead of concerning yourself with "getting to HI" and doing the schema method, you might instead stay focused on relaxing and getting to sleep without losing your waking-life self-awareness. You will likely have no problem recognizing the time to try forming your dream because, well, you'll be asleep and dreaming with nothing much going on.

      That quiet period after HI that I mentioned, BTW, is simply a few moments of NREM sleep where you are asleep but your dream hasn't formed yet; if you find yourself there, just wait patiently for a dream to form or try the things I mention in the session... but don't look for that quiet period or get frustrated if it doesn't happen; because it might never happen. You can -- and likely occasionally will -- get to sleep and dream without ever experiencing HI or any noise at all, so waiting for it (or any other noise) can be a distraction that actually prevents your dream from forming, and might even keep you from falling asleep.

      All that said, I just reread session 4 and realized that, were I writing it now, I probably would have left out the part about converting HI imagery to dream imagery. Though this technique can work nicely -- and gives you something dreamy to do during the wait for sleep -- it really might serve as a distraction from your path to being asleep and able to properly dream. If you haven't already developed a mindset that is familiar with the process of falling asleep during a WILD dive (which you will develop, as you get some successful WILD's behind you) then playing with HI imagery might tend to wake you up fully, regardless of how good your visualization skills may be. In other words, I suggest, now, that you hold off on playing with HI and save the schema work for when you know you are asleep but are not dreaming the sort of dream you were hoping to dream.

      tl;dr: Half of WILD is about falling asleep, Ahmedboy; try to be patient during your WILD dive and let that sleep come. After that, should you feel a need to form your dream, go for it.

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      Oh sure ! But how would I know if I am in NREM if there are no dreams , I mean do you know it from its queitnes or from the relaxation .

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