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    Thread: Winterīs Tale by Mark Helprin

    1. #1
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      Lightbulb Winterīs Tale by Mark Helprin

      I was a bit reluctant to open a thread about such a wonderful book - being afraid, it could raise expectations of me giving a review, and I feel this might ultimately be beyond me - and esp. while only being in halfway.

      It is a phantastic book and I love it, and will go on doing so, and can only echo Sageous praise!

      But as it is - I feel like doing it anyway, because I would like to continue the following exchange in a place of itīs own.
      Not to derail shadowofwindīs thread, which inspired it - and a huge thankyou for this, if you read it!
      And to maybe reach others, who would be delighted by it too!
      Okay - I just throw an excerpt of this exchange in here and leave it to incubate a bit more!

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Aside from the rest of Stephenson's books (especially the Baroque Cycle books -- which are really just one 1,200-page book; 2,300 if you include Cryptonomicon, God help us), about the single best book I can recommend that you read is Winter's Tale, by Mark Helprin. Aside from being a great book, Winter's Tale is categorically the best book I've ever read about nature and conscious experience of dreaming -- even though the word "dream," much less the concept itself, is rarely mentioned in the story.
      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post

      I am such a picture-freak - canīt help it:


      Well - and completely free to do what I want time.. for a while.
      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      I am reading this book now - and I feel I can not find words to express how moved I am - Iīm actually crying and smiling at the same time for a while now while reading - how can anybody write such a beautiful thing..?
      I am about a quarter in and I donīt think, I will get much sleep tonight - listening to Brahms, who to my great joy I got reminded of, Beverly playing the allegro of his violin concerto in her fever.
      Ah - I feel so inadequate posting words in here - just wanted to let you know.
      I canīt thank you enough for this book!
      This will not be the only time I read it.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      ^^ Very cool, I'm glad you're enjoying it!

      I got a warm feeling just at the mention of Beverly (even though she was so fond of the cold). I do try to reread it every 5-10 years, just to be reminded about Peter Lake's world, and the definition of quality.

      Oh, and the best thing about this book is that it keeps getting better; enjoy!
      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      He is such a virtuoso - somehow he managed to take my tears away completely, just before she dies.
      Iīm not completely sure - but it felt as if he pulled the blow, somehow magically, before it happens - the morgue scene shortly before and the little things after that.
      Iīll stop spoiling now, if somebody else wants to read it..

      DO IT - SOMEONE ELSE!!
      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous View Post
      Just read there's going to be a movie next year. Unless it's about 12 hours long it'll likely suck, but seemed worth mentioning. I'll be obliged to see it regardless of quality, for sure.
      Yeah - my husband told me, and I was like - the most they might (and hopefully will..) manage, is to give a tiny little bit of a glimpse of itīs intricate beauty and maybe motivate people to read the book themselves..

      I can understand so well, though, that if you are a director and your mind is tuned to finding text, which spawns the most beautiful of pictures in your mind - you couldnīt possibly be able to resist trying your hand at it.

      What can never be done, though is do justice to all the inner dialogue/monologue the book holds on offer..
      Last edited by gab; 11-11-2013 at 09:25 PM.

    2. #2
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      I have nothing significant to add at this point but wanted to let you know Steph that you both have inspired me to get a copy of this book from my library when it gets returned...sounds like I should just buy one though.
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      ^^ This one's at the top of my list of "must own" books, for what it's worth.
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      What I also find remarkable - I am able to take it in parts and not rush through it all in one hypnotized frenzy.
      This happens often, when I like a book very much - I forget to eat, sleep, breathe almost.

      And then I either have to read it once more, directly afterwards and slower, to really not miss out on some of the beauty (like I did with Anathem for example) - or read it only once and have this nagging feeling I did it an injustice.

      Winterīs Tale is somehow patient with me - raptures me for a longish while - and then lets me set it aside again.
      For me to come back and again take in every sentence, while I read it.
      This is so unusual for me - I wonder if it is meant to be like that..?

    5. #5
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      Me too.

      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      What I also find remarkable - I am able to take it in parts and not rush through it all in one hypnotized frenzy.
      This happens often, when I like a book very much - I forget to eat, sleep, breathe almost.

      And then I either have to read it once more, directly afterwards and slower, to really not miss out on some of the beauty (like I did with Anathem for example) - or read it only once and have this nagging feeling I did it an injustice.

      Winterīs Tale is somehow patient with me - raptures me for a longish while - and then lets me set it aside again.
      For me to come back and again take in every sentence, while I read it.
      This is so unusual for me - I wonder if it is meant to be like that..?
      Funny thing about this book: not only is it as you say patient -- indeed, I've never felt as compelled to savor every sentence as with this book (though his others, especially Memoir From Antproof Case,come pretty darn close) -- but it seems to reward your effort to read every word. I'm a big-picture sort of person, and in a novel details and style are secondary to its overall movement or message. But Winter's Tale is indeed different. Cooler still, I've read it three or four times now (odd I don't remember), and it still reads the same way...though often with different meanings -- just like a dream!

      All gushing aside, it might be fun later (when you're done, of course) to explore why this book is so unusual. Is it the dream-like quality? The characters? The unique portrayal of New York? Athansor? The Lake of the Coheeries? The near disregard for time and space? Something else altogether? As a writer myself, the depths this book plumbs is staggering; I've always been puzzled that it never got more attention (I guess Helprin arrived too late to the literary scene, as his sort of quality is not much appreciated anymore).

      So when you're done, StephL,maybe you'll not only post a review, but a thought about why this book matters, especially to dreamers? That would be most excellent, I think!
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      I will - what I can say right now, is that the characters experience what is directly in front of them in an unique way.
      And they mostly are also able to intellectually and emotionally grasp the core of their impressions.

      In a lucid way - the word here used by me like it is used without a connection to LD.
      But the connection to LD is glaringly obvious between the lines..

      What are you writing?
      Have you already published?

      gimmesmiley.gif
      Last edited by StephL; 11-12-2013 at 07:22 PM.

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      What are you writing?
      Have you already published?
      I'm writing about dreams, of course!

      I've published three books to date, two of them novels, the other a small fun self-help/philosophy book. My first novel, Oneironauticus, is essentially a lucid-dreaming/alternate reality action adventure (I was young when I started it), my second is Party Line, a dream-sharing book, where all the narrative is in the form of dreams.

      I've got a couple more novels in the pipeline, but I sort of dropped everything to start another non-fiction book, this time concerning using LD's as an active metaphoric interface with your mind, body, and (hopefully) soul, to pry further open doors into things like healing, exploring the unconscious, and maybe supernatural activities ... of course, by the time I'm done it'll likely be about something else altogether.

      The books are currently self-published, because I was a complete failure at playing the "you gotta know someone" game. But I still think they're pretty good.
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      Wow!
      Thank you!

      It will take a looong while till I come back to ask and talk with you about your work - but I really look forward to exploring these!
      This is tantalizing!
      I have read so much, and never talked to one of the authors before (the first word my mind threw up was "terrifying" lol..).

      smile.gif
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      ^^ It won't be Helprin, but I hope you enjoy!

      ... And thank you for paying attention; it means a lot!
      Last edited by Sageous; 11-13-2013 at 02:23 AM.
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      Wow Sageous! I love the vacuum tube miniatures! The old world detail in "Priorities" is so captivating. I love the kid poking through the door and the antique fixtures and checkerboard floor! Nice works!!
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      ^^ Thanks Fogelbise, I do appreciate that.

      "Priorities" is one of my personal favorites, actually!
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      Me too - these miniatures are great - well - wrong word maybe ..
      Superb idea to put them in these vacuum-tubes!

      These are my favourites:

      "The Plan" - is that correct so?




      "Quantum Eden"


      For some strange reason - the backside of this one had a intriguing effect as well...
      But the front is better of course!

      I find it nice, that you sweltered the coins next to them, too!



      The paintings of your wife are great:

      "Piercedart":




      Esp. "Lightbulbplant":



      It is actually funny - I did a little pic with bellflowers giving off light as well, long time ago (donīt ask - that one and everything else I would show is given away as presents, and itīs been a long while I did something myself - and anyway without any technique..).


      This one is also wonderful "Force":

      Last edited by StephL; 11-15-2013 at 01:00 AM. Reason: some "little" corrections ;)
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    13. #13
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      My wife will be quite pleased that you enjoyed her paintings, StephL! She always was the real artist among us.

      That "lgbk" is just the backside of "Quantum Eden" (lgbk = long view, back). I hadn't realized we were still posting that view! The front's better, I think!

      Oh, and "The Plan" is actually a sculpt of the first house we bought after I decided to quit my career in Manhattan and start a new life centered on writing, art, and dreams (hence, the plan. That was ten years ago now, and at this point we're up to Plan "E," I think!)

      Thanks again for the attention, guys!

    14. #14
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      Uuups - yeah - tell this to your wife!
      Should have paid more attention...redface.gif

      hiding.gif
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      More - and from the right side around..
      Actually - upon longer looking - this one is really a masterpiece:

      "Late"





      Aand - some more - not to deter people from looking with my strange sense for abstract art and liking the backside!!
      But I would keep the pictures of the backsides - as you know now - they look good in some strange peopleīs eyes!

      "Spilt Milk III"



      This one is also really "wow":
      "Glass Floors"

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      ^^ "Late" is my personal favorite, hands down. I had to make it twice, too, as the original's glass was cracked by a clumsy gallery hand, and I had to jam it all into a new tube (speaking of nightmares). So "Late" and I have become very close.

      Yeah, I had originally thought that there was something to see in the backs, especially early on when I was still trying to retain their original "vacuum tubeness" with them. I'm not so sure now.

      Just to make its purpose clearer, "Spilt MIlk III's" full title is "Spilt Milk III: Sixteen."

      And, because the artist portion of my soul can't leave things lie: Your photo of "Glass Floors" is the one that is missing the top floor, where the suicidal rich girl is looking down through her floor to all the rest. I thought it might make more sense if I mentioned that (assuming it ever made any sense!).

      I guess I shouldn't complain when someone has taken the time to share my work, huh? Where is the humility?

      Speaking of humility, isn't this a thread about Winter's Tale? I'd hate to have all these pretty pictures close the door on the real talent in the room!
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      Hehe - you know what - this time I refrain from having a bad consciousness - I grab into my pocket and put the label: "now this might be an opportunity" on affairs.

      You are definitively right - we say "wenn schon denn schon" - meaning - if you do something, you might just as well do it properly.
      Now Iīm unfortunately not properly proper right now - Friday darts and lalala..
      Lets think about it later in a constructive manner!

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      I was a bit reluctant to open a thread about such a wonderful book - being afraid, it could raise expectations of me giving a review, and I feel this might ultimately be beyond me - and esp. while only being in halfway.
      Soo, it's been a while now. Did you ever finish Winter's Tale? I sure hope you didn't set it aside to make time for all that extensive posting you've been doing. Not that your posts haven't been a delight, which they have, but there should be priorities, right?.

      Or else... could it be that the book went sour on you? Did it start out great and just fall apart? I could see that happening, as Helprin does start waxing a bit poetic -- downright aetheric -- toward the end of this book.

      So let us know, if you get a chance... even if your experience with Winter's Tale shifted from a sea of glorious imagery to a tedious, inexplicable and exhausting parade of trite or empty metaphor...

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      Good you remind me - day before yesterday - I had reminded myself..
      No - I am still reading it - but in a way - yes - posting has distracted me from reading - also this visitor, still camping, here - but I still enjoy it.
      I will come to the realization, that you all on here will not any more run away than the book will!

      It is almost a bit very patient with me.
      Peter Lake has been falling out of the sky into the ocean and into the future just shortly before - I loved the hospital scene, where he lets the "poor mentally disturbed female patient" "play at being" the doctor for him - until they reach the roof of the building - and all his expected arching and other bridges are not there any more.
      I treat this book a bit like a box of fine expensive pralines - got to take care not to loose the narrative, though.
      Duly noted - tonight before I go to sleep, it will be perfect to bring me into a dreamy mood.
      No - this has not been put at the side under - "not as nice after all as thought" - it is truly lovely.
      Poetry in a way.

      smile.gif








      Oh - and edit: What comes on number one now - after getting off track with it - lucid dreaming. Most important!!
      Also got diverted from that by posting - but only for a while - and why not - Iīm new here and excited!

    20. #20
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      I had a Winter's Tale moment today.

      First, I live in upstate New York, not far from where the Lake of the Coheeries would be, and my city rests on the steep banks of the Mohawk river, looking south toward the Catskill mountains and Hudson Valley.

      So today I was walking home from the shop with my newspaper, downhill toward the Mohawk valley (very pretty on its own, BTW), scanning the horizon as I am wont to do. This time, though, there was a line of pure white clouds in the near distance that formed a perfect "wall" many thousands of feet high, but touching the top of the mountains. It was crisp, long (spread from horizon to horizon), and the only cloud formation in sight (the sky was clear blue above it, and behind me). The late afternoon sun was just above it, adding a marvelous sheen to the wall's top and curious shadows to the valley below. Without pause my mind said, "Hey, there's the White Wall!"

      Might've been a "you had to be there" moment, but I figured I'd share...
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      Wow Sageous!!
      How wonderful - to really see this mythical white wall, of which you have read so often!
      And it really is so high?
      And the sun illuminates it in a spirit-rising way and it is just there on itīs own?
      How fortunate that you live, where your favourite novel has itīs central eddy of mixing and entwining the stories of itīs protagonists!
      In some passages, the narrator drifts a bit too much into the spiritual for my taste - but the sheer beauty of the words and pictures, he evokes - if an almost reflexive hick-up reaction comes along - I just let it pass. And - for those thinking about reading it - no worry - this is not a book to have this sort of reaction often - only really rarely..

      I love the protagonists and their so very special view on what they perceive around them - and what happens - rich and full of awareness and originality.
      I really sort of envy those working for the "Sun" - there goes a vision, of how a huge concern could do it right.


      Aand - by the way - I made this thread, not to drive off topic shadowofwindīs thread...
      But this thread here also has itīs own seed for a thread of itīs own!!

      I saw - there are some members on here, who made their own thread for showing their artwork.
      And this is a perfectly good idea as well in my view - buut - what Iīll do is open one to interview you and ask you for posting and showing and maybe explaining what all you do and have created - it would almost be cheating on us forumites, not to show!!

      Having been stumbling about a bit already - but in not exactly an adequate way - see above - through your works.
      So - beware - in the next days - there will be a thread-attack on you, dear Sageous..

    22. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by StephL View Post
      In some passages, the narrator drifts a bit too much into the spiritual for my taste - but the sheer beauty of the words and pictures, he evokes - if an almost reflexive hick-up reaction comes along - I just let it pass. And - for those thinking about reading it - no worry - this is not a book to have this sort of reaction often - only really rarely..
      If you picture the entire book as one great, cohesive, dream, rather than a narrative of adventures through waking reality, the mystical stuff somehow begins to make sense. That, at least, is what I've come to do...

      I love the protagonists and their so very special view on what they perceive around them - and what happens - rich and full of awareness and originality.
      I really sort of envy those working for the "Sun" - there goes a vision, of how a huge concern could do it right.
      And that perfection of truth can be achieved (or at least sought) if one's mind and energy allow it ... more of that dream-symbolism, perhaps?


      So - beware - in the next days - there will be a thread-attack on you, dear Sageous..
      uh-oh...
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    23. #23
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      Just bought it off Google Playstore. Not even halfway through the first chapter and I wanna go buy a hard copy.

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      Got stuck on - don't know how many percent - let's see, how you find it, Nagirroc!

      I will finish it - but actually this is an alien and completely new phenomenon to me - a book, which I adore and really deeply enjoy - "throwing me out" at some not clearly definable point.
      I tried to force myself onwards very shortly - and put it to the side.

      Always having a sort of bad consciousness for doing so - after having opened this thread.
      But I feel, that explaining, why exactly this is so - would mean a hell of a lot of intellectual work - and me reading the whole book.
      And I simply do not feel like doing that.
      Sorry to say.

    25. #25
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      That's a real shame, Steph, but better to set it aside than to force your way through a book like this. I do hope you'll get back into it someday as it still has much to offer!
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