Thread: Lucid Seeker's Musical World

Okay, i've been brainstorming and i have come up with an idea for an orchestral piece. Its hard to actually show you how it will sound since i haven't made it. But here is a structure i have got for the piece, its a bit rough but hopefully it will provide a basis for when i actually get round to composing the piece. Then when you listen to it you can hopefully follow the sections through and see how i have put it together. It isn't completed yet, but its a basis. I'll edit this post to update it hopefully tomorrow.

Intro

- Fade in with a Cello soloed
- Sad but distant progression as more instruments join and interweve bit by bit.
- Suddenly stops with only the strings playing quietly, it is mysterious and leads the piece forward
- Sudden crescendo as all the entire orchestra joins in

Main Section

- Piece begins to push forward like a steam train, chugging bit by bit as it speeds up, has a positive feel with occasional minor increments.
- Large clashes from cybals as the main melody pushes forward.
- Sudden pause in which string ensemble portray a moment of tension or suspense.
- Punchy outburst from Brass section which then dies away into quiet strings.

Ending

- Oboe enters with a mysterious solo part.
- String Ensemble joins in slowly through a fade in
- Instruments play in Unison and end on a high note which is prolonged.
- Fades away.

EDIT - In the Making...

Omg I just listened to the piece from your first post, wow that's really good!!

The only improvement I can think of is to somehow make the notes a little uhm.. I don't know how to describe this.. a little deeper sounding, maybe? The original piece is played on a real piano, so your version sounds a bit less authentic, more like a midi file. I hope this helps. If you could overcome that little detail, man it'd be beyond brilliant!

I WANT TO HEAR MORE!!!

Thanks Mes

Well, as for improving that piece, i agree with you 100%. The virtual instrument i used was the standard piano that came with my music editing program, i had to add some reverb and tweak the EQ to make it sound a bit better. But i agree, it sounds very tinny, and unfortunately, i can't think of many other ways to utilize the effect i have to give me a better tone. However! I will be sorting myself out in a week or two with some nice virtual instruments, and included in the bundle is a Steinway Grand virtual instrument which sounds REALLY nice (drools...). I intend to use it, maybe then it will sound more like the original. I'll see what i can do though, there must be a way for me to make some improvements with the current sound.

Thanks for the criticism though, its greatly appreciated and i shall use it to improve the piece. I'm thinking my next job will by dynamics also.

Interesting approach to composing there, L.S. - one that fits right in with the whole idea of doing soundtrack work. It is striking to me, as I have never started with a "roadmap". Now I want to try it!

You're making progress. Getting a programmed piece to sound musical with an instrument you aren't an expert at is challenging indeed. Considering where this started from and how far you've already come, I think you're going to pull it off.

Originally Posted by Lucid Seeker

And here is my version, please bare in mind that i have not completed this yet, any comments on how i could improve are greatly appreciated.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...songID=6190412

This is you playing???

I am so jealous! I would love to be able to play piano

good stuff lucid seeker.

Thanks for the comments everyone, its really encouraging to know that people are watching and giving me help along the way. So thanks guys!

pj - I know, its going to be difficult to pull this one off, i intend to start the composition today. I feel that even though i don't have the sufficient virtual instruments yet i need to learn how to compose properly through using the notes and not basing it around the sounds of the instruments. It will be challenging, but i think that by laying it out bit by bit i can manouovre easily between parts without worrying about creating a full scale piece at once. This will be interesting to work with.

Adam - Unfortunately, i hate to disappoint you but i did not play that in my version. I merely input it manually. It would have been a heck of a lot easier had i found a score to help me, but unfortunately i had to go through by ear listening to the notes, i think they are right now, there may be a few hiccups in some places, but overall it seems to be the right notation. If i had the score i could have just scored it up using Sibelius and then export it as a midi which i could then import direct into Logic. I too would love to be good at the piano, all it really takes is practice and effort.

ranma - Thanks

Oh, i have news also, for anyone who likes Lynyrd Skynyrd, i will be doing a remake as part of my college course of the track "The Ballad of Curtis Loew", however i will be doing it in a Reggae style, once i have completed it in a few months i will post it up with a comparison to the original. Oh, and i've nearly finished my Mozart sequencing coursework, so i should be posting that soon.

Thanks once again guys.

Lucid,

A good start! Since you asked for suggestions, I will offer the following. I hope it's not too overwhelming.

The quality of "realism" in virtual instruments has several facets. The sample library itself is only one of these facets. I don't know which library you are using, but you can certainly make the performance much more real with a few adjustments.

The first thing is to look at the velocities in your sequence. You need to vary the values quite a bit to make it more realistic. When a human sits down to play a piano, every note is played with just a little bit different force. Try to find the natural accents in a melody line and emphasize them compared to the others. In general, I think a lot of this piece would benefit from lower velocity settings, so that it doesn't sound like the whole thing is being hammered upon.

The next thing is the note lengths you are using. Many of them sound unnaturally short. When playing a real piano, notes in a melody usually overlap by a few milliseconds (unless they are supposed to be staccato). I'm not sure how much control over this your sequencer allows, but if you can, try lengthening each note just a hair. For the staccato notes, try varying the length of some of the notes by a few milliseconds as well.

The last and probably most important thing to humanize your sequence is to unquantize it. The playing in this piece is too exact for a human to have played, and the ear picks this up whether conciously or subconsciously. A quantized MIDI line means that every note falls precisely where it is mathematically defined to be. The notes in a real performance almost never fall exactly in place, nor would you want them to. Even the notes of a single chord should be displaced very slightly from each other.

I've spent many years making computers sound more human, and one thing is very clear: The beauty of a human performance lies in its imperfections. It's the give and take of dynamics, note placement, rhythm, and tempo that make it live and breathe.

If you'd like, I have many examples of "humanized" sequenced piano I can show you.

Skysaw, thanks a lot for the advice, i am actually torn as to what to do, i feel that i should perfect the Summer piece. And i agree with each of your points, i need to improve it in many areas, but i am a bit of a perfectionist and like things to be perfect so i'd need to go and sit down and do this by ear. I need to set aside some time for it, you see i can quite easily start something from scratch, which is what i want to do with that plan i made, but i need maybe a good solid day to work on the Summer piece. So this weekend i will take your advice and make good use of it and then upload and update.

As for my plan, i intend to create part of a section tonight and upload it, hopefully it will go well, i'm going to have to hunt down some instruments though.

Thanks skysaw though, much appreciated. Oh, either PM me or post it in here, i would be very interested in hearing some examples of "Humanized" sequenced piano.

And for everyone else, expect to see the first part of my intro developing tonight, i'll upload a sample for you all.

LD, what sequencer are you using? How easy is it to make the kinds of adjustments I mentioned? It certainly helps if the program is powerful and easy to use. Making these sorts of edits begins to become second nature after awhile, but you have to be willing to plod through the learning curve. Trust me, it is definitely worth it!

I use Sonar, and I've set up macros and key bindings that help a great deal. You need to be able to switch tools very easily to edit note beginnings/endings as well as velocities. It's also very useful if you have a "randomize" feature in your quantization tool. It also helps if you have an easy way to draw in a whole lot of velocities at once as a line, curve, or freehand.

Here are a couple of examples of some of my piano writing. If one in particular jumps out at you, I may be able to send you a MIDI file of the piano part.

Autumn Concerto, 2nd movement - Some light playing at about 0:33-1:12, and some good examples of gentle phrasing and ritardando at 4:25-4:50

A Brief Symphony, 2nd movement - A good example of exposed legato phrasing at 0:08-0:34. Also notice the gentle push and pull of dynamics and tempo.

Equilibrium, part I - Listen to the runs at 1:35-2:12. Notice both the legato (overlapping notes) as well as the emphasis on the beginning of each small group of notes (quintuplets, mostly), so that the flow of the meter is maintained. The first long phrase goes until 1:44, first winding downwards slowly, then swooping upwards in a rush at the end. Hear how the dynamics swoop up with it, accenting the very last high note it ends on.

Equilibrium, part II - One last example, just because this one is a lot of fun! Listen from 2:22-3:00. Here the piano is much more percussive. The first part has some heavily accented triplets and more separated notes. It was important that this rhythm be heard clearly against the straight 8th notes in the rest of the orchestra. At the end of this section, we get shorter, more percussive notes, but still with heavier accents where expected.

O.O That sounds like it'd be amazing to listen to. I'm no music expert or anything, but I'd love to listen ot a sample of it, or the whole thing, sometime.

Thankies!

Skysaw - I am using Logic Pro for sequencing and recording, its what i use at college, so i prefer it, plus i can easily get around things. As for velocity changes and adding length to notes, adjusting etc, its really easy in logic, i mean REALLY easy to manouvre between the velocity tool and more. So i should be able to get it done. But my oh my, those piano parts in the pieces you showed were impressive, they sound very humanized. When i get round to further editing i will make the changes, its a shame i cannot play the keyboard, but i will see what i can do.

Lucidbulbs - Hey! Not spoken to you in a while. Well, its just ideas at the moment, i physically have the virtual instruments on my Macbook, but i cannot use them inside Logic for some weird reason, so i'm in the middle of downloading an extension player which will work in Logic so that i can run my instruments through it. Then i can hopefully get some nice sounds down. I got some great ideas in mind so hopefully i should be able to get out the cello part of the intro tonight. I just want to strive to share my ideas, i feel sometimes that i'm all ideas but no actions. So i'll wait for this player to finish up and i should have something up tonight (hopefully).

Once again, i am very grateful for all the support and more, and thanks a lot Skysaw for all the constructive criticism, i will work on the Summer piece at the weekend, i just need to make final touches and finish it up. But for now i am going to work towards this new piece up till the weekend.

Lucid Seeker, Great stuff. I'm in my first year of Music GCSE, so I've composed a couple of things myself. One classical piece for viola, guitar and cello, and I'm in the middle of a jazz piece at the moment. Maybe I'll post them. Only thing is, we use Sibelius at school, but I don't have it at home. Any similar program that I could use that you know of?

Can't wait to hear your orchestral piece as well, what kind of orchestra are you writing it for?

Skysaw, listened to your Autumn concerto movement, which was great. Could have been played by a real orchestra.

Sorry i haven't updated you guys. Well i just wanted to say that the orchestral composition, is in a sense cancelled. I cannot compose it, i don't have any virtual instruments that are suitable for the task. I know people will say its important to use what you have got, but please hear my reasoning as to why i need the instruments to compose the piece. I am a very visual and listening sort of person, if i want to compose something i want to be able to hear a clear and realistic representation of how i want it to sound, otherwise i get put off. I do not want to compose each part using a keyboard instrument, its just not going to work at all.

I had a set of virtual instruments, but the don't work inside Logic. The set that i need is £300, but unfortunately i don't have the funding for it. I am so frustrated about this because every week on a monday i go down into town and ask about jobs, and i receive the same answer "no". I have no true way of making any money, and to be honest with you i don't think i could face just sitting idle for months waiting for the money to come in in small amounts. I want to utilize my time right and improve my skills over the next few months, but instead i am just sat unable to do anything.

And trust me on the virtual instruments, it is composing for different instruments with a single virtual instrument which i cannot do, i really get put off and i feel no life being put into my piece and i usually give up after time.

So sorry to disappoint you guys, i really wanted to do this, but i cannot do this without the virtual instruments.

Any suggestions on what i could do would be pretty awesome.

Lord Toaster - GCSE was easy for me, but i feel i could have maybe tried harder. It is easy to do and its cool your doing your compositions already, definitely post them, it would be great if i could maybe orchestrate them and put them together for you when i have some virtual instruments to work with.

Sibelius is a good program, however i do not know of a good alternative. But i do have a solution for you so that you can compose at home, just drop me a PM to let me know if your interested and i'll give you the details.

Originally Posted by Lucid Seeker

I had a set of virtual instruments, but the don't work inside Logic. The set that i need is £300, but unfortunately i don't have the funding for it. I am so frustrated about this because every week on a monday i go down into town and ask about jobs, and i receive the same answer "no". I have no true way of making any money, and to be honest with you i don't think i could face just sitting idle for months waiting for the money to come in in small amounts. I want to utilize my time right and improve my skills over the next few months, but instead i am just sat unable to do anything.

For starting out, £300 is a bit steep to invest. I highly recommend using the Garritan Personal Orchestra, which is what almost all of my sounds are. It sells for $199 or less, and is a fantastic bargain. Should work just fine in logic. It has multiple versions of most instruments, and should cover just about anything you can think of.

Thanks for the suggestion Skysaw

I was considering getting this, but unfortunately the UK is a rip off place to live. Everything is overpriced compared to the US. Now, it is roughly bout $2 to £1. Now, technically if its $199 in the US, it should be around £100 in the UK. But no, on amazon.co.uk the Garritan Personal Orchestra is £179. Its unbelievable, i might aswell go that extra £120 to get the £300 package. Its East West Symphonic Orchestra Gold Edition. We use the Silver Edition in college but and it is not as suffice, i am always looking to broaden my horizons and add more.

Its a really annoying decision, i currently have about £25 that i can put towards it. I will check out the Garritan orchestra, do some research, i am just angered by how hard it is to get a job here as well as how overpriced things are. Thanks a lot Skysaw.

Originally Posted by Lucid Seeker

...i might aswell go that extra £120 to get the £300 package. Its East West Symphonic Orchestra Gold Edition. We use the Silver Edition in college but and it is not as suffice, i am always looking to broaden my horizons and add more.

Sorry about the price difference. I would perhaps try to contact Gary Garritan to see if they can ship you out something cheaper. I'm willing to bet he will help set something up. I think you can contact him through garritan.com.

But more importantly, I don't think the EW orchestra Gold is £120 better than Garritan. Not by a long shot. And Garritan is much, much better than the silver.

I just checked out a few demo's of the Garritan Orchestra, i must admit, i think i would probably prefer this over the East West Sound library. It looks like a nice library i must admit. Thanks for the info Skysaw, i'll give him an email to see if i can get it any cheaper.

Thanks a lot once again, the library is pretty extensive i must admit, looks to be much better quality than East West in fact.

Thanks, oh i notice your on the Garritan website on the demo page, great stuff, this should be cool. I don't know when i can buy it but hoepfully a lot sooner than i would have waiting for East West.

Yes, I've posted a lot of my material on the Garritan forums. A couple of my demos are on the official demo page. My version of the opening of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring has gotten a lot of mileage. It's been mentioned in a few online reviews.

Garritan Personal Orchestra arrived today and i LOVE it. I feel much more motivated to create some music. Hopefully i can upload one of my ideas i've been working on tonight.

Thanks once again skysaw, it is a great pack and i cannot wait to create something with it.

Looking forward to hearing what you come up with. There is a lot to learn, and the Garritan boards are a great place for it. I highly recommend the Rimsky-Korsakov orchestration lessons there.

Also, make sure you get an understanding of the modwheel (CC#1) for wind and string dynamics and (CC#64) for wind legato. Liberal use of these helps a lot in making it sound real.

Right, been with the Garritan Personal Orchestra for nearly 2 weeks and i am liking it a lot.

Here is a composition i am working on, its a tribal piece i have come up with, though some bits sound simple at the moment please do bear in mind that i need to develop it further and complete it before improving. Here it is so far, its a snippet but hopefully you will enjoy it.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4HUJYCFU

Hey Lucid,

The link is not working for me. I get Megaupload's page, but no file.

Originally Posted by skysaw

Hey Lucid,

The link is not working for me. I get Megaupload's page, but no file.

Works fine for me Try it again and if you still have problems get back to me and i'll update the link.