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    Thread: Are you an intellectual elitist?

    1. #1
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      Are you an intellectual elitist?

      I've found this post around the web after watching a video, and it describes nicely a bit of what it means being an intellectual elitist (to me at least):

      I am an intellectual elitist. Are you?

      I admit it. I don’t necessarily view this as having any negative connotation, although I am sure others will argue with that. I think the perpetual search for enlightenment and truth in life is the worthiest pursuit, and I see the intellectuals as driving the train on this journey.

      I grew up surrounded by intellectuals on my father’s side, both grandparents and my aunt have PhDs in various fields, the uncles all have graduate degrees in engineering. My eyes fill with admiration for their achievements, although at times, I know they were lacking in the warm fuzzy department, [Not my grandparents - they were the sweetest].

      I have a difficult time accepting what I perceive to be the intellectual apathy of others. The aggregate ignorance of most Americans annoys me a lot, especially when I interact with foreigners who know more about American history than the average Joe. I am definitely on this forum to interact with other like-minded people because of this. The people on this forum expand my knowledge and challenge me to think deeply and not sigh in exasperation.

      I have been teased because of this, my intellectual elitism, because I’ll bring Ayn Rand to a day at the beach while everyone else is reading the latest Oprah book club hit [no offense to Oprah; I think it’s GREAT that she encourages people to read]. My point is that people tend to stick to what is fashionable and not what will enlighten them and challenge their brain.

      Negative examples of when my intellectual elitism flares is when I am in a conversation with someone and I realize that everything coming out of their mouth is unfounded personal opinion not based on any fact or scientific basis/study. I take pride in explaining things I have read or studied. Sometimes in different areas of the forum where people really need to bring their A-game [philosophy for instance], I can tell that someone is really not very well-read and it causes me to smirk. I know it’s horrible, but I am a bit of an intellectual snob. I can’t help it. This of course isn’t a great way to win friends and influence people. I am gradually learning that it’s okay to leave people to their own ideas; it envelops them in ignorant bliss.
      I realized I relate a lot to this person's behavior and opinions regarding intellectual apathy. I also think that intellectual elitism is not necessarily bad, unless you insert what you'd call arrogance towards other people's thinking, but my respect grows tenfold to people who are able to put experience aside, their own personal view of the world, and engage in exploration, and engage in conversations with that type of mindset (and not merely in the basis of "I experienced this").

      What about you, would you qualify as an intellectual elitist? Tell us your experiences and your behavior/opinion towards people expressing intellectual apathy
      Last edited by Zoth; 01-15-2014 at 01:32 AM.
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    2. #2
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zoth View Post
      What about you, would you qualify as an intellectual elitist?
      Oh, definitely. I do believe there's a fine line between admiring people who want to learn more and being a huge asshole to people who show intellectual apathy, but I like to think I'm not an asshole.
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      Hmmm I don't know. I don't like to classify myself, put myself in a category, as I am continuously changing. I don't really like the word elitist, reminds me of " high art" and " low art". Just puts a bad taste in my mouth. By the way it's all art! I like the idea of expanding ones knowledge, absolutely! It is very important to back up statements as well.But I don't measure intelligence solely on book smarts. Maybe the people who don't know a lot about history invest their intellectual endeavours somewhere else, it's so subjective. Maybe missed the point on this one, sorry for that. Thanks for the read though.
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      In a sense, what defines intellectuals is an exploration of new areas of knowledge. I don't think we can say that this is objectively any "better" a pursuit than people who explore, say, social groups, or new places. The most we can say is that we might not relate to them very easily. This doesn't excuse wilful ignorance, however.
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      @ Chickadee23

      This topic isn't meant to label people, it's more like a way of understanding how certain people have certain opinions/behavior towards things like intellectual apathy, the importance and relevant of exploring the world around you in a more precise way, and last but not least, to hear about people's experiences regarding any moments where they felt like "intellectual elitists", both in a positive or (and this one is ofc more interesting) negative manner.

      Personally, I never initially assume someone as ignorant (regarding something), that's why I like to engage in discussion and confront them on what they are saying. Nothing beats (imo) criticizing an idea and finding that that same idea was actually valid and supported by some logic that you weren't aware of the first place: either way, if both of the people engaging in the discussion are honest, at least one of them will end up learning something. But the point is: you have to be willing to learn, which is something many many people lack nowadays. Can't state how many times I felt alone because my work group was more interested on gossips than actually having an intellectual discussion

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      In a sense, what defines intellectuals is an exploration of new areas of knowledge. I don't think we can say that this is objectively any "better" a pursuit than people who explore, say, social groups, or new places. The most we can say is that we might not relate to them very easily. This doesn't excuse wilful ignorance, however.
      Not sure if this is a good example, but would you qualify someone as expressing intellectual apathy if she had beliefs that could be dispelled with knowledge, like racism, astrology, etc? Where would you draw the line?
      This is not so much about what is right, more like about how you personally perceive it and behave. For example, should philosophers be considered as expressing intellectual apathy if they don't bother including neuroscience findings in the discussion of consciousness? What do you think?
      Last edited by Zoth; 01-15-2014 at 01:39 AM.
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      I only draw issue with elitism caused by intellectual specialists. As one pursues a particular avenue of study, more and more they filter their experiences through their area of study. And more and more, they lose their ability to relate to other areas of study. They grow dismissive of information which does not compute with their particular specialization, and thus become condescending toward other areas of study.

      For example, my particular specialization began with a deeper study of existentialist philosophy that free from from the necessity of being right has enabled me to pursue learning in any avenue of intrigue, whether or not what I learned was intuitive, logical, socially acceptable or dependable. I took in data related to esoteric studies simply because I enjoyed investigating a mystery. Coinciding this, I also pursued a deep interest in literature and poetry, and thus attempt to describe around truth rather than state it plainly.

      Contrarily, the mathematician above me (Xei, not Zoth who beat me to the post) studied... well... math, which is a bit different, and historically we've had trouble relating to each other. We've often seen the other as asinine or obtuse and even accused each other of willful ignorance. This is a sophomoric phase any student will inevitably go through in attempting to relate what they are learning.
      Last edited by Original Poster; 01-15-2014 at 01:43 AM.
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      @zoth

      The way you put it, "willingness to learn" is something I can get behind. After reading your reply I guess I share your open approach. Many times I have been shot down because people thought what I was showing them too weird or strange. Specifically when I try to show my sister animations or any short film(not mainstream) she dismisses it. But I will sit with her for an hour while she watches some reality show just to be in her company. Even when I analyze the show (the appeal in today's society)she gets mad so I don't do that out loud anymore haha. Ya it can be frustrating and extremely lonely sometimes but not all the time, that's what I hold on to
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      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      I only draw issue with elitism caused by intellectual specialists. As one pursues a particular avenue of study, more and more they filter their experiences through their area of study. And more and more, they lose their ability to relate to other areas of study. They grow dismissive of information which does not compute with their particular specialization, and thus become condescending toward other areas of study.
      Never has someone described my dad so well in one sentence, lol.

      I wouldn't call myself an intellectual "elitist" but I would definitely label myself as intellectual and take a great sense of pride in it. It's just one of my better developed qualities as a person, and I am certainly not shy about that fact. After all, knowledge is power. It's a shame that some people do not realize this and even make fun of my intellectual remarks, which doesn't really bother me individually. I am doing a science related study but I don't consider science to be the only truth, I still have my own beliefs that can not be explained by science.

      You sound like a smart perso chickadee, and often times I find myself to be like that around my less intelligent friends (I am in no way dismissing them or putting them down), but I can still enjoy being around them at times. It hasn't been a lot lately though because the way we think differs too much and it's a big problem in my life at the moment, I have a hard time relating to people's thought patterns. I barely bear an ill will towards anyone though for that matter, and I rarely insult people, not even as a 'joke'. Because from an intellectual point of view I think that is just projecting your insecurities on other people, which is not necessary. As I always say, when people speak out loud they still think to themselves. Let me give an obvious example:

      A friend of mine at my school, who fancies a certain girl that was present in our company, made a remark to her about someone else "Maybe she secretly has feelings for you". What he meant, in fact, was that HE has secret feelings for her that he doesn't dare to express.

      Sorry, I'm rambling on and I will stop now. It feels nice to be able to talk this way in the presence of you people.
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    9. #9
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      Me definitely. We don't know why we exist(IMO there is no reason, and where everything came from? Now that is just reason, a tool we use merely for survival(essentially)), so we started using religioun, then philosophy, and now science. Note that science facts are considered "partial laws", meaning even if proven right they are under submission of change. We created these, and we developed them, and I believe we may still develop more, we are. Take the idea that works, use it, develop it, and so on. My point is that in all this commotion (you see that we are slow? that's why we need to not be overconfident and be open-minded and not dismiss ideas) , we need to be careful and considerate. And since we are logical and conscious(these are only neurons), we tend to see things the way we are "hardwired" to! Isn't everything you are now experiencing only a single reflection!? But what do we know about singularity! So, let us walk the path that is currently the best, which is the scientific one. You can say philosophy is important too, but here are 2 things:

      Positive side: it is a door to creativity. But keep in mind that science is also a door to creativity.

      Negative side: I need a story for that:
      Once, an architect and a philosopher camped in the desert. It became dark, and they slept. In the morning(very early), the architect waked the philosopher. He asked him:"look upwards. What do you see?". He responded:" I see the infinite sky filled with infinite stars, folded in endless dimensions, showing existence itself!". The architect then said:"Yeah!? You know what I see? Nothing! Someone stole the tent!".
      Ok, this one was for laughs , but you get the point(it may be misleading, impractical).

      You get my take on this now. What do you think, am I an intellectual elitist?
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      You're an existentialist. You should read some Satre and Camus and Alan Watts and stuff, if you haven't already
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      Quote Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
      You're an existentialist. You should read some Satre and Camus and Alan Watts and stuff, if you haven't already
      but I did make a very deep point on why we should be intellectual elitists.
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

      "People tell dreamers to reality check and realize this is the real world and not one of fantasies, but little do they know that for us Lucid Dreamers, it all starts when the RC fails"
      Add me as a friend!!!

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      No, and I have a very negative view of elitism in general, since it is a main ingredient of tyranny. Someone who lives a harmonious life pursuing their dreams should be respected unconditionally; their level of education and the books they read are not relevant to their value as a human. Arrogance is necessarily a part of elitism. Arrogance is the difference between being a genius or an expert and being an elitist.
      Last edited by Whatsnext; 01-18-2014 at 03:40 AM.
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      The same man that said a wise man knows only that he knows nothing (advocating humility) also said an unexamined life is not worth living. Just Satan...
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      but someone can place boundaries, and should stop when negative consoquences appear, so this elitism is great if you place these boundaries
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

      "People tell dreamers to reality check and realize this is the real world and not one of fantasies, but little do they know that for us Lucid Dreamers, it all starts when the RC fails"
      Add me as a friend!!!

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      I realized I relate a lot to this person's behavior and opinions regarding intellectual apathy. I also think that intellectual elitism is not necessarily bad, unless you insert what you'd call arrogance towards other people's thinking, but my respect grows tenfold to people who are able to put experience aside, their own personal view of the world, and engage in exploration, and engage in conversations with that type of mindset (and not merely in the basis of "I experienced this").
      I'm just wondering, how do you cope with reading dream things on the forums then? Most of what people know about dreaming is coming from their experience.

      Also when you say "put experience aside" that really narrows down what conversations you talk about. Are you saying that people have to use only books/movies to discuss topics? How would you discuss something like gun violence or without adding some personal experience?

      And how would you be able to talk about doing card tricks or sports if you aren't putting personal experience into it?





      I personally don't think of myself as an intellectual elitist because I usually don't categorize people as less intelligent, if someone is bad at school then they are usually good at other topics that they don't teach in school.

      I have looked down on people for using bad grammar and stuff, but I know at one time I wrote like that as well, so I still try to work through their writing to see if they have something interesting to say.
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      Quote Originally Posted by PKJacker View Post
      I'm just wondering, how do you cope with reading dream things on the forums then? Most of what people know about dreaming is coming from their experience.

      Also when you say "put experience aside" that really narrows down what conversations you talk about. Are you saying that people have to use only books/movies to discuss topics? How would you discuss something like gun violence or without adding some personal experience?

      And how would you be able to talk about doing card tricks or sports if you aren't putting personal experience into it?





      I personally don't think of myself as an intellectual elitist because I usually don't categorize people as less intelligent, if someone is bad at school then they are usually good at other topics that they don't teach in school.

      I have looked down on people for using bad grammar and stuff, but I know at one time I wrote like that as well, so I still try to work through their writing to see if they have something interesting to say.
      Not exactly what Zoth meant.
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

      "People tell dreamers to reality check and realize this is the real world and not one of fantasies, but little do they know that for us Lucid Dreamers, it all starts when the RC fails"
      Add me as a friend!!!

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      ^^ Probably. But PKJacker's post does reflect a definition and perception of intellectualism that has been fairly prevalent for the last half-century or so.

      To call yourself an intellectual elitist these days is almost an act of snobbery or self- deprecation, depending on context. Plus, in our era of self-esteem, it is almost tacky to assume someone else is less informed than you, even after they've proven it. In a sense, "intellectual" has almost become a bad word, unless you are very heavily into philosophy. So a general negative tone about the concept itself is understandable.

      Also, regarding "putting experience aside:" I too doubt that is what Zoth meant, but it could easily be implied, especially on a forum that holds experience in far more esteem than provable knowledge. So maybe PKJacker has a point?
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      Oh - please - don't be deceived Zoth!!
      What I see from all that is somebody, whining on her forum, that people are all too stupid to see the truth, and it is all completely easy, if you are as clever as her - so why don't they see that?
      I guess, something like that has been happening - that is a forum and an OP after all - I put the rest of the post also in, where she says, how her forum is so and so - and how she gets attacked lalala..

      Ayn Rand is a classical example for why I think all that.
      Nexus6 claims to put on her A-performance in philosophy forum - and then she comes - of all things - with "Objectivism" - Rand`s philosophy..

      Ayn Rand - naive in the very best of lights.
      At worst, though - clear racist sentiments - the whole nasty ultra-right conservative libertarian package - see below.

      Jennifer Burns in her biography Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right, notes how Rand's position that "Native Americans were savages", and that as a result "European colonists had a right to seize their land because native tribes did not recognize individual rights", was one of the views that "particularly outraged libertarians." Burns also notes how Rand's position that "Palestinians had no rights and that it was moral to support Israel, the sole outpost of civilization in a region ruled by barbarism", was also a controversial position amongst libertarians, who at the time were a large portion of Rand's fan base.

      Following the Arab-Israeli War of 1973, Rand denounced Arabs as "primitive" and "one of the least developed cultures" who "are typically nomads."

      She anyway has been a significant influence among libertarians and American right-wing conservatives.
      What clearly puts her off-limits of any self-respecting intellectual at all is her view of art alone!

      She proposed that the role of art in human life is to transform humans' metaphysical ideas by selective reproduction of reality into a physical form—a work of art—that one can comprehend and to which one can respond emotionally.
      Oh - and radical capitalism, too.

      There is an intellectual/scientific mainstream and then there are people with interest in complex topics, but simplifying matters grossly in order to be able to point a finger towards a "logical" source of evil..

      Or for any other reason - simplification is very attractive - esp. to the not actually intellectually active - but ones with a higher education - having lost touch with reality - but still feeling entitled by their education to understand everything.
      Note how Nexus6 points out, what being intellectual means ..


      The usage of term elitism (nowadays) - I find using it expresses a naivité at best - and at worst it does have undertones of arrogance, superiority complex up to tyranny indeed.
      Why bring it up in the first place like that?

      Quote Originally Posted by Zoth View Post
      I've found this post around the web after watching a video, and it describes nicely a bit of what it means being an intellectual elitist (to me at least):


      I am an intellectual elitist. Are you?

      I admit it. I don’t necessarily view this as having any negative connotation, although I am sure others will argue with that. I think the perpetual search for enlightenment and truth in life is the worthiest pursuit, and I see the intellectuals as driving the train on this journey.

      I grew up surrounded by intellectuals on my father’s side, both grandparents and my aunt have PhDs in various fields, the uncles all have graduate degrees in engineering. My eyes fill with admiration for their achievements, although at times, I know they were lacking in the warm fuzzy department, [Not my grandparents - they were the sweetest].

      I have a difficult time accepting what I perceive to be the intellectual apathy of others. The aggregate ignorance of most Americans annoys me a lot, especially when I interact with foreigners who know more about American history than the average Joe. I am definitely on this forum to interact with other like-minded people because of this. The people on this forum expand my knowledge and challenge me to think deeply and not sigh in exasperation.

      I have been teased because of this, my intellectual elitism, because I’ll bring Ayn Rand to a day at the beach while everyone else is reading the latest Oprah book club hit [no offense to Oprah; I think it’s GREAT that she encourages people to read]. My point is that people tend to stick to what is fashionable and not what will enlighten them and challenge their brain.

      Negative examples of when my intellectual elitism flares is when I am in a conversation with someone and I realize that everything coming out of their mouth is unfounded personal opinion not based on any fact or scientific basis/study. I take pride in explaining things I have read or studied. Sometimes in different areas of the forum where people really need to bring their A-game [philosophy for instance], I can tell that someone is really not very well-read and it causes me to smirk. I know it’s horrible, but I am a bit of an intellectual snob. I can’t help it. This of course isn’t a great way to win friends and influence people. I am gradually learning that it’s okay to leave people to their own ideas; it envelops them in ignorant bliss.

      I have the feeling that intellectual elitism isn’t endemic to the ****s (the forum). I am willing to bet the ****s experience this as well. Is it related to the arrogance, hubris and over-confidence we are so often accused of? Probably. However I think that intellectual elitism is a actually a good thing.

      Q: How does Orion keep his pants up?

      A: With an asteroid belt

      Two hydrogens are walking along a street. The first one says, "Hey! I think I lost an electron!" The second one replies, "Are you sure?" The first one then says, "Yeah, I'm POSITIVE."

      I realized I relate a lot to this person's behavior and opinions regarding intellectual apathy. I also think that intellectual elitism is not necessarily bad, unless you insert what you'd call arrogance towards other people's thinking, but my respect grows tenfold to people who

      are able to put experience aside, their own personal view of the world, and engage in exploration, and engage in conversations with that type of mindset (and not merely in the basis of "I experienced this").

      What about you, would you qualify as an intellectual elitist? Tell us your experiences and your behavior/opinion towards people expressing intellectual apathy
      Nice jokes she makes - really.
      But that's about it - look at what I fattened - I seriously do not like this post at all!
      Could well be, what she means with apathy is rational thought and being realistic!
      "Objectivism" a là Ayn Rand - my bad!!

      And Zoth - please explain, how you come to dismiss empirical evidence and experimental results in favour of "exploration" - what do you mean with that anyway - mental self-exploration? And conversations of a certain sort with certain valuable people?

      I think, I know how you mean it, though - you rant against anecdotal biased reports?

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      In a sense, what defines intellectuals is an exploration of new areas of knowledge. I don't think we can say that this is objectively any "better" a pursuit than people who explore, say, social groups, or new places. The most we can say is that we might not relate to them very easily. This doesn't excuse wilful ignorance, however.
      Yeah - that makes perfect sense.

      Quote Originally Posted by Zoth View Post
      @ Chickadee23

      This topic isn't meant to label people, it's more like a way of understanding how certain people have certain opinions/behavior towards things like intellectual apathy, the importance and relevant of exploring the world around you in a more precise way, and last but not least, to hear about people's experiences regarding any moments where they felt like "intellectual elitists", both in a positive or (and this one is ofc more interesting) negative manner.

      Personally, I never initially assume someone as ignorant (regarding something), that's why I like to engage in discussion and confront them on what they are saying. Nothing beats (imo) criticizing an idea and finding that that same idea was actually valid and supported by some logic that you weren't aware of the first place: either way, if both of the people engaging in the discussion are honest, at least one of them will end up learning something. But the point is: you have to be willing to learn, which is something many many people lack nowadays. Can't state how many times I felt alone because my work group was more interested on gossips than actually having an intellectual discussion



      Not sure if this is a good example, but would you qualify someone as expressing intellectual apathy if she had beliefs that could be dispelled with knowledge, like racism, astrology, etc? Where would you draw the line?
      This is not so much about what is right, more like about how you personally perceive it and behave. For example, should philosophers be considered as expressing intellectual apathy if they don't bother including neuroscience findings in the discussion of consciousness? What do you think?

      Exactly Zoth for what I fattened - you put it very nice, how you really mean it - you Zoth, not Nexus6 - do you know her (posting) by the way?
      Elite is clearly labelling for me, though.


      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      Me definitely. We don't know why we exist(IMO there is no reason, and where everything came from? Now that is just reason, a tool we use merely for survival(essentially)), so we started using religioun, then philosophy, and now science. Note that science facts are considered "partial laws", meaning even if proven right they are under submission of change. We created these, and we developed them, and I believe we may still develop more, we are. Take the idea that works, use it, develop it, and so on. My point is that in all this commotion (you see that we are slow? that's why we need to not be overconfident and be open-minded and not dismiss ideas) , we need to be careful and considerate. And since we are logical and conscious(these are only neurons), we tend to see things the way we are "hardwired" to! Isn't everything you are now experiencing only a single reflection!? But what do we know about singularity! So, let us walk the path that is currently the best, which is the scientific one. You can say philosophy is important too, but here are 2 things:

      Positive side: it is a door to creativity. But keep in mind that science is also a door to creativity.

      Negative side: I need a story for that:
      Once, an architect and a philosopher camped in the desert. It became dark, and they slept. In the morning(very early), the architect waked the philosopher. He asked him:"look upwards. What do you see?". He responded:" I see the infinite sky filled with infinite stars, folded in endless dimensions, showing existence itself!". The architect then said:"Yeah!? You know what I see? Nothing! Someone stole the tent!".
      Ok, this one was for laughs , but you get the point(it may be misleading, impractical).

      You get my take on this now. What do you think, am I an intellectual elitist?
      Sorry Louai - but I worry a bit - this reads like an amalgam of disorganized thinking - with misunderstood stuff - obscure hints and over-enthusiasm - almost manic?

      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      but I did make a very deep point on why we should be intellectual elitists.
      Which one exactly?

      Quote Originally Posted by Whatsnext View Post
      No, and I have a very negative view of elitism in general, since it is a main ingredient of tyranny. Someone who lives a harmonious life pursuing their dreams should be respected unconditionally; their level of education and the books they read are not relevant to their value as a human. Arrogance is necessarily a part of elitism. Arrogance is the difference between being a genius or an expert and being an elitist.
      like.jpg

      Quote Originally Posted by LouaiB View Post
      but someone can place boundaries, and should stop when negative consoquences appear, so this elitism is great if you place these boundaries
      What? This as an argument against elitism being an ingredient of tyranism?
      Whom you expect to put up and enforce boundaries against too much intellectual elitist thinking, if it looks dangerous??
      And that should then be great - how?
      Last edited by StephL; 01-24-2014 at 12:01 AM. Reason: I tend to edit..
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    19. #19
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      Ahaha, this is taking a weird direction, but I think PkJacker post is helpful in the sense that here I am, clarifying some aspects of the thread that probably should had been presented in a somewhat different perspective.

      @ PKJacker

      I cope with people saying anything about anything. What I have troubles coping with (which is why I related in a certain way to the quoted person) was the fact that some people refuse to get out of their bubble. This doesn't make their input necessarily wrong, but ultimately limited, which is what concerns me. Knowledge improves perspective, and refusing new knowledge, or not challenging your own view of the world is what I'd call intellectual apathy. When I say "put experience" aside, I mean your own experience. It's only illogical to claim that true knowledge may come from books/scientific articles, when those are simple platforms where ideas from "experience" are being laid (if I make this understandable).

      Quote Originally Posted by Sageous
      To call yourself an intellectual elitist these days is almost an act of snobbery or self- deprecation, depending on context. Plus, in our era of self-esteem, it is almost tacky to assume someone else is less informed than you, even after they've proven it.
      Quote Originally Posted by StephL
      The usage of term elitism (nowadays) - I find using it expresses a naivité at best - and at worst it does have undertones of arrogance, superiority complex up to tyranny indeed.
      Why bring it up in the first place like that?
      Yes, it's my fault, I know. I was too confident that everyone in the thread would get the core idea I was trying to discuss, but maybe that was hard when the post I quoted had many other elements that might have diverted the attention to another perspective on the terms. For the sake of clarification, the main idea here was that:

      As a person who lives under the mindset of intellectual honesty and cultivates self-growth (learning more about the universe and yourself, challenging one-self, seeking the big questions, having curiosity towards "hard" problems), do you sometimes feel frustrated when facing intellectual apathy?

      I guess the elitism doesn't sound bad for me because I do consider people who exhibit those characteristics as "above" (yes, I know I have to explain what I mean by this ) people who demonstrate intellectual apathy. One example I already mentioned is that one of the philosophers: are you being intellectually honest when you are discarding the contributes of neuroscience in the discussion of consciousness? Once again, it's not saying one group is smarter than the others, but it's frustrating for a discussion if one close himself in his single perspective.

      I'm just wondering, how do you cope with reading dream things on the forums then? Most of what people know about dreaming is coming from their experience.
      That's a easy one to answer Dreams are experiences, not processes. I perceive dreams as mind, not brain, as the representation, not the mechanism. If you say: "I felt my own body in the dream" fine by me. If you say "I had an AP" I'll "sigh" for 2 seconds, because my own experiences taught me that by default people who believe in AP are incapable of conceiving that they are experiencing a lucid dream/OBE. Once again, it's completely irrelevant whether AP is real or not (I'm not interested on winning any discussion), but I consider intellectual apathy a person who refuses to to conceive his 1st person experience might actually related to a different 3rd person perspective event than the one he's imagining, making that person less capable of a discussion based on intellectual honesty.

      And that is what I mean with "above". Now, just because the thinking or the perspective is obviously flawed doesn't mean that person is wrong (and that's the part where I find intellectual elitism to be bad), but sometimes you just can't help it: I'm sure everyone can relate to that person who makes the most incredible stories about something and that his/her view are the TRUTH. That's the feeling I was hoping people would catch on. This sense of elitism (if it may be called like this) is not necessarily good/respectful, which is why I went in a basis of "what do you think?" (and this is where zoth might be perceived as a jerk, but in this particular thread he wasn't planning to worry about sounding like one). So maybe I should rephrase it more in the lines of: tell us about your moments where you just can't avoid feeling intellectually elitist? I guess this could also sound something like "when you wanted to call the other person just plain ignorant?".

      Also, because much of what I said might be presented in the tldr form of his post, I'll quote him as well:

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei
      In a sense, what defines intellectuals is an exploration of new areas of knowledge. I don't think we can say that this is objectively any "better" a pursuit than people who explore, say, social groups, or new places. The most we can say is that we might not relate to them very easily. This doesn't excuse wilful ignorance, however.
      Yes, I know this doesn't make it "better", but in some of my "dark days", I confess those other people feel like they belong to a different world And willful ignorance, I just say "burn, burn them all" (I'm sorry xD)
      LouaiB and Sageous like this.
      Quote Originally Posted by nito89 View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
      You have to face lucid dreams as cooking:
      Stick it in the microwave and hope for the best?
      MMR (Mental Map Recall)- A whole new way of Recalling and Journaling your dreams
      Trying out MILD? This is how you become skilled at it.

    20. #20
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      The term elitism in the thread title alone was repelling - you did get the inspiration for it's usage from the cited post, Zoth, didn't you?
      And there is a connection with this choice of word to the way of thinking otherwise in that post.
      Why not simply call it intellectualism?
      Maybe "true intellectualism" or whatever - but elite - nope, don't like it.

    21. #21
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      Intellectualism also doesn't make the scenario that much better. Honestly, people can call it whatever they want, I just thought the wording wouldn't make such a difference especially after I laid the explanation. I guess I could change the title though...

      edit: you did that on purpose StephL! You knew I was going to get the "can't edit now" error! Just jking
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      Quote Originally Posted by nito89 View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by zoth00 View Post
      You have to face lucid dreams as cooking:
      Stick it in the microwave and hope for the best?
      MMR (Mental Map Recall)- A whole new way of Recalling and Journaling your dreams
      Trying out MILD? This is how you become skilled at it.

    22. #22
      Please, call me Louai <span class='glow_008000'>LouaiB</span>'s Avatar
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      YES YES!!!
      Forget my earlier post, Steph. What Zoth posted(#19) is exactly what I mean. I got what Zoth is saying from the first of the thread, and I stick with my decision(though the wording seemed wrong(my wording)).

      So, I am, in the sense that Zoth meant and explained. This is the road all should follow!
      I fill my heart with fire, with passion, passion for what makes me nostalgic. A unique perspective fuels my fire, makes me discover new passions, more nostalgia. I love it.

      "People tell dreamers to reality check and realize this is the real world and not one of fantasies, but little do they know that for us Lucid Dreamers, it all starts when the RC fails"
      Add me as a friend!!!

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      I have to agree. I equate "elitism" with superiority and that's a no bueno for me...

      I'd rather learn new things with a genuine love of learning... not because of some strong egotistical desire to outwit everyone :/

      Life is about discovering things OUTSIDE OF THE BOX..... it should not be wasted arguing about how dark the lines should be.....
      Last edited by Mismagius; 05-05-2014 at 03:19 PM. Reason: merged posts
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      I'm more worried at people's intellectual apathy about new technology and current events. Once, I told someone before 1st period (I'm in 7th grade) about the new hydrogen fuel cell-the one that creates electricity with only water as a by-product?-and she was just like, "So what? It doesn't effect me, why should I care?" This person was in 10th grade math. Seriously!
      Another time, I tried to strike up a conversation about what was happening in Ukraine, and the guy was like, "Yeah...I think...Russians are bad?"
      Oh, by the way, the URL for the wikipedia article about hydrogen is at the bottom.



      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...66917471,d.aWw
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    25. #25
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      @ Nightspren: The fuel cell is definitively not "news" - it's been around in common knowledge for decades, and as your article also says, it was invented two centuries back. So you are right - kids should know it exists, even while it isn't as far developed as to be sufficient to (completely) take over the role of fossil fuels. And maybe never will - for various reasons, worthy of discussion, too.
      But nice you are of such a mindset!
      Wait for university - can only get (a little) better!
      And come along into Science and Mathematics extended discussion in off topic - open threads, unearth interesting old ones - I for one would enjoy more activity over there a lot!
      Lucid Dreaming News also has much of the latest science around our beloved LDing, with links to the original papers, more or less clever discussion and all!
      Last edited by StephL; 05-18-2014 at 03:44 PM. Reason: can't seem to leave it be ..

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