Oh - please - don't be deceived Zoth!!
What I see from all that is somebody, whining on her forum, that people are all too stupid to see the truth, and it is all completely easy, if you are as clever as her - so why don't they see that?
I guess, something like that has been happening - that is a forum and an OP after all - I put the rest of the post also in, where she says, how her forum is so and so - and how she gets attacked lalala..
Ayn Rand is a classical example for why I think all that.
Nexus6 claims to put on her A-performance in philosophy forum - and then she comes - of all things - with "Objectivism" - Rand`s philosophy..
Ayn Rand - naive in the very best of lights.
At worst, though - clear racist sentiments - the whole nasty ultra-right conservative libertarian package - see below.
Jennifer Burns in her biography Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right, notes how Rand's position that "Native Americans were savages", and that as a result "European colonists had a right to seize their land because native tribes did not recognize individual rights", was one of the views that "particularly outraged libertarians." Burns also notes how Rand's position that "Palestinians had no rights and that it was moral to support Israel, the sole outpost of civilization in a region ruled by barbarism", was also a controversial position amongst libertarians, who at the time were a large portion of Rand's fan base.
Following the Arab-Israeli War of 1973, Rand denounced Arabs as "primitive" and "one of the least developed cultures" who "are typically nomads."
She anyway has been a significant influence among libertarians and American right-wing conservatives.
What clearly puts her off-limits of any self-respecting intellectual at all is her view of art alone!
She proposed that the role of art in human life is to transform humans' metaphysical ideas by selective reproduction of reality into a physical form—a work of art— that one can comprehend and to which one can respond emotionally.
Oh - and radical capitalism, too.
There is an intellectual/scientific mainstream and then there are people with interest in complex topics, but simplifying matters grossly in order to be able to point a finger towards a "logical" source of evil..
Or for any other reason - simplification is very attractive - esp. to the not actually intellectually active - but ones with a higher education - having lost touch with reality - but still feeling entitled by their education to understand everything.
Note how Nexus6 points out, what being intellectual means ..
The usage of term elitism (nowadays) - I find using it expresses a naivité at best - and at worst it does have undertones of arrogance, superiority complex up to tyranny indeed.
Why bring it up in the first place like that?
Originally Posted by Zoth
I've found this post around the web after watching a video, and it describes nicely a bit of what it means being an intellectual elitist (to me at least):
I am an intellectual elitist. Are you?
I admit it. I don’t necessarily view this as having any negative connotation, although I am sure others will argue with that. I think the perpetual search for enlightenment and truth in life is the worthiest pursuit, and I see the intellectuals as driving the train on this journey.
I grew up surrounded by intellectuals on my father’s side, both grandparents and my aunt have PhDs in various fields, the uncles all have graduate degrees in engineering. My eyes fill with admiration for their achievements, although at times, I know they were lacking in the warm fuzzy department, [Not my grandparents - they were the sweetest].
I have a difficult time accepting what I perceive to be the intellectual apathy of others. The aggregate ignorance of most Americans annoys me a lot, especially when I interact with foreigners who know more about American history than the average Joe. I am definitely on this forum to interact with other like-minded people because of this. The people on this forum expand my knowledge and challenge me to think deeply and not sigh in exasperation.
I have been teased because of this, my intellectual elitism, because I’ll bring Ayn Rand to a day at the beach while everyone else is reading the latest Oprah book club hit [no offense to Oprah; I think it’s GREAT that she encourages people to read]. My point is that people tend to stick to what is fashionable and not what will enlighten them and challenge their brain.
Negative examples of when my intellectual elitism flares is when I am in a conversation with someone and I realize that everything coming out of their mouth is unfounded personal opinion not based on any fact or scientific basis/study. I take pride in explaining things I have read or studied. Sometimes in different areas of the forum where people really need to bring their A-game [philosophy for instance], I can tell that someone is really not very well-read and it causes me to smirk. I know it’s horrible, but I am a bit of an intellectual snob. I can’t help it. This of course isn’t a great way to win friends and influence people. I am gradually learning that it’s okay to leave people to their own ideas; it envelops them in ignorant bliss.
I have the feeling that intellectual elitism isn’t endemic to the ****s (the forum). I am willing to bet the ****s experience this as well. Is it related to the arrogance, hubris and over-confidence we are so often accused of? Probably. However I think that intellectual elitism is a actually a good thing.
Q: How does Orion keep his pants up?
A: With an asteroid belt
Two hydrogens are walking along a street. The first one says, "Hey! I think I lost an electron!" The second one replies, "Are you sure?" The first one then says, "Yeah, I'm POSITIVE."
I realized I relate a lot to this person's behavior and opinions regarding intellectual apathy. I also think that intellectual elitism is not necessarily bad, unless you insert what you'd call arrogance towards other people's thinking, but my respect grows tenfold to people who
are able to put experience aside, their own personal view of the world, and engage in exploration, and engage in conversations with that type of mindset (and not merely in the basis of "I experienced this").
What about you, would you qualify as an intellectual elitist? Tell us your experiences and your behavior/opinion towards people expressing intellectual apathy
Nice jokes she makes - really.
But that's about it - look at what I fattened - I seriously do not like this post at all!
Could well be, what she means with apathy is rational thought and being realistic!
"Objectivism" a là Ayn Rand - my bad!!
And Zoth - please explain, how you come to dismiss empirical evidence and experimental results in favour of "exploration" - what do you mean with that anyway - mental self-exploration? And conversations of a certain sort with certain valuable people?
I think, I know how you mean it, though - you rant against anecdotal biased reports?
Originally Posted by Xei
In a sense, what defines intellectuals is an exploration of new areas of knowledge. I don't think we can say that this is objectively any "better" a pursuit than people who explore, say, social groups, or new places. The most we can say is that we might not relate to them very easily. This doesn't excuse wilful ignorance, however.
Yeah - that makes perfect sense.
Originally Posted by Zoth
@ Chickadee23
This topic isn't meant to label people, it's more like a way of understanding how certain people have certain opinions/behavior towards things like intellectual apathy, the importance and relevant of exploring the world around you in a more precise way, and last but not least, to hear about people's experiences regarding any moments where they felt like "intellectual elitists", both in a positive or (and this one is ofc more interesting) negative manner.
Personally, I never initially assume someone as ignorant (regarding something), that's why I like to engage in discussion and confront them on what they are saying. Nothing beats (imo) criticizing an idea and finding that that same idea was actually valid and supported by some logic that you weren't aware of the first place: either way, if both of the people engaging in the discussion are honest, at least one of them will end up learning something. But the point is: you have to be willing to learn, which is something many many people lack nowadays. Can't state how many times I felt alone because my work group was more interested on gossips than actually having an intellectual discussion
Not sure if this is a good example, but would you qualify someone as expressing intellectual apathy if she had beliefs that could be dispelled with knowledge, like racism, astrology, etc? Where would you draw the line?
This is not so much about what is right, more like about how you personally perceive it and behave. For example, should philosophers be considered as expressing intellectual apathy if they don't bother including neuroscience findings in the discussion of consciousness? What do you think?
Exactly Zoth for what I fattened - you put it very nice, how you really mean it - you Zoth, not Nexus6 - do you know her (posting) by the way?
Elite is clearly labelling for me, though.
Originally Posted by LouaiB
Me definitely. We don't know why we exist(IMO there is no reason, and where everything came from? Now that is just reason, a tool we use merely for survival(essentially)), so we started using religioun, then philosophy, and now science. Note that science facts are considered "partial laws", meaning even if proven right they are under submission of change. We created these, and we developed them, and I believe we may still develop more, we are. Take the idea that works, use it, develop it, and so on. My point is that in all this commotion (you see that we are slow? that's why we need to not be overconfident and be open-minded and not dismiss ideas) , we need to be careful and considerate. And since we are logical and conscious(these are only neurons), we tend to see things the way we are "hardwired" to! Isn't everything you are now experiencing only a single reflection!? But what do we know about singularity! So, let us walk the path that is currently the best, which is the scientific one. You can say philosophy is important too, but here are 2 things:
Positive side: it is a door to creativity. But keep in mind that science is also a door to creativity.
Negative side: I need a story for that:
Once, an architect and a philosopher camped in the desert. It became dark, and they slept. In the morning(very early), the architect waked the philosopher. He asked him:"look upwards. What do you see?". He responded:" I see the infinite sky filled with infinite stars, folded in endless dimensions, showing existence itself!". The architect then said:"Yeah!? You know what I see? Nothing! Someone stole the tent!".
Ok, this one was for laughs , but you get the point(it may be misleading, impractical).
You get my take on this now. What do you think, am I an intellectual elitist?
Sorry Louai - but I worry a bit - this reads like an amalgam of disorganized thinking - with misunderstood stuff - obscure hints and over-enthusiasm - almost manic?
Originally Posted by LouaiB
but I did make a very deep point on why we should be intellectual elitists.
Which one exactly?
Originally Posted by Whatsnext
No, and I have a very negative view of elitism in general, since it is a main ingredient of tyranny. Someone who lives a harmonious life pursuing their dreams should be respected unconditionally; their level of education and the books they read are not relevant to their value as a human. Arrogance is necessarily a part of elitism. Arrogance is the difference between being a genius or an expert and being an elitist.
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Originally Posted by LouaiB
but someone can place boundaries, and should stop when negative consoquences appear, so this elitism is great if you place these boundaries
What? This as an argument against elitism being an ingredient of tyranism?
Whom you expect to put up and enforce boundaries against too much intellectual elitist thinking, if it looks dangerous??
And that should then be great - how?
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