Ask the Older Crowd

The idea for this one came out of a chat about a month back, when those I was talking to realized I was old enough to be their father. The conversation got real interesting, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. It became an opportunity to discuss things with an older guy who is anonymous and non-threatening.

We have a contingent of the "over 40" crowd here who have agreed to watch this thread and answer questions. I'll let them reveal themselves as time goes on.

The only thing I ask is that you keep the questions appropriate for an open forum with participants from a wide range of age groups and cultures. In other words, please practice a bit of discretion and diplomacy.

So... off we go!

So... how did your family cope through the Depression? :chuckle: j/k :wink:

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Originally Posted by Burns

So... how did your family cope through the Depression? :chuckle: j/k :wink:

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Hahah.

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Originally Posted by Burns

So... how did your family cope through the Depression? :chuckle: j/k :wink:

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You asked about my family, and I can actually answer that. (I just spent the whole morning with my folks, who were teens during the Great Depression. They would certainly qualify as family!)

My dad's folks came from Sicily in the early teens. Dad was born in Detroit in 1918, during the monstrous flu epidemic. Like many of his generation, he has two birthdays - the day he was actually born on the kitchen table, and the day he was taken to the hospital for his birth certificate.

My grandfather was a shoemaker in Sicily, and the hard times they left behind made Depression era Detroit still look pretty good. Grandpa had become a pattern maker for Henry Ford, and was one of the fortunate few who held his job to some degree through the 1930's. As a result, there was always bread and pasta, and their home was open to the neighborhood. Anybody who was hungry could go there for a meal. They raised chickens, made Dago Red wine, made their own beer, and in general did all right.

Being a kid in Depression-era Detroit was an amazing thing. The Mafia and the Purple Gang were battling it out over the "trade routes" for Canadian whiskey, and Detroit was the center of it all with Windsor being right across the river. My dad became a pool hustler - the "straight guy" who would get a game started before the shark came in. They were all "rum runners," and saw more than their share of excitement as a result.

My mom's world was very different. The depression hit the Copper Country of Michigan's upper peninsula very heard. She was sent to Detroit to live with relatives who were faring better, and as a result met my dad.

My folks will tell you that being teenagers in the depression was happy and interesting, and that they were much more content than kids today living what can only be seen from their perspective as lavish and decadent lifestyles. They had little and expected less and were grateful for every meal and the roof over their heads. They had a strong sense of community and found ways to enjoy and celebrate life without spending money they didn't have.

That's how my family fared during the Great Depression.

Okay you're a guy but I have a question about mothers which you might be able to answer since you're married...

Is it very common for women to "let themselves go" after childbirth in terms of their appearance (dress, body)? It seems to me like it is, and that worries me. I feel like having a kid should enhance your life in every way, including self-image. If you're happily married and with a kid, then you have it all and you should look like it too. But I tend to see mothers left and right who look like slobs and don't seem very happy and it scares me.

There are moms on board who will hopefully chime in here. In the meantime, let me answer this in a way that might be a bit unexpected, from my perspective.

When baby #1 comes along, everything in your universe changes. Your priorities all shift to that kid. And it is all encompassing, more than I can even begin to tell you. Yet, as utterly demanding and absorbing as it is, you do what needs to be done... and, often, do it again and again, because it is so wonderful.

And yes, in the midst of that, it is very easy to not eat as carefully, get less physical exercise, let a haircut or manicure slip past or whatever. It doesn't happen to everybody, but it happens to many... and at the same time, we are aging and everything is getting more difficult a little bit at a time. Taking care of ourselves in the sense that we do when we are looking for a mate just becomes less of a priority. There is only so much time in a day, and so much energy to be expended.

It is very easy to judge these things without understanding what being a parent really involves, which is something there is no good way to convey without experiencing it. The child is just more important.

It's all worth it. It is what we really are designed for.

LOL! OK, here goes... so what did you used to study in school before there was history then? Truth be told I'm nearly as old as the "old guys" around here, 37 years young. "Last time I heard that one the Dead Sea was still sick!" Ha! Let's hear it for the old farts. Lucidity is one of the things that IMHO begins to get easier with age, my Dad (60) had his first LD about 6-8 months ago, he's had maybe half a dozen since. Gives you at least ONE thing to look forward to in getting older (which btw is better than the alternative!)
:shock:

I do understand that a child becomes your everything, what you live for.. but I think looking after yourself sets a good example and helps inspire your child to do the same. I think it's important for kids to be able to look up to their moms (or parents in general) for this sort of thing. Right now I'm speaking from the point of view of the child.. my mother is one of those who let herself go and I know that I would have really appreciated someone who was more put together. It would have helped my self image while growing up for sure.

I do not disagree with you. I've seen many go way too far, plus there are often other issues like depression, disappointment, frustration... I'm just giving one perspective, not excusing it.

One of my personal axioms is that if we don't take care of ourselves first, we aren't really able to do a good job of taking care of others - and in the long run we can end up being the ones who need caring for.

if you could go back 30 years, and meet your 10 year old self

what advise would you give him?

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Originally Posted by Ynot

if you could go back 30 years, and meet your 10 year old self

what advise would you give him?

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Oooooh. Good one. Lots of "don'ts"

Don't start smoking when you're 12 - you'll be asthmatic and fighting pneumonia a couple times a year before you're 30.

Don't start drinking and drugging... you'll be losing your sanity and end up in AA when you're 21.

Don't be so self-conscious. As trite as it sounds, learn to enjoy who you are rather than trying to twist yourself into something you hope others will like.

Don't quit trying in school. You're going to have to go back and re-learn everything you are blowing off now later on, when you could be doing other things.

Don't choose anger or despair. You don't believe it now, but it IS a choice. You will eventually learn that you can choose to be happy, and you will be.

Don't try climbing that cliff without proper gear, no matter how easy it looks. It will change your life forever, and you'll discover yet another way to damage your body in a way it won't ever recover from.

Do get honest with yourself and be honest with others. There is no future in deceit and dishonesty. Life is infinitely simpler when you live it without all the bullshit.

The girls/women will take care of themselves. Be patient.

Some of the friends you will be making in the next few years will become lifelines in the future. Hold them close and treasure them.

Finally... life is going to be better than you are even remotely capable of understanding or knowing. You are going to have everything you want in life and so much more - but what you end up wanting is going to surprise you very much. You ARE going to be OK... and end up playing a very important role in many lives.

**edit**

Oh - and one more thing... the thing you experience at night in that infinite void is called "Lucid Dreaming." Try spinning and see what happens.

Hehehe! Very nice! :D :D Love the ending.

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Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

I do understand that a child becomes your everything, what you live for.. but I think looking after yourself sets a good example and helps inspire your child to do the same. I think it's important for kids to be able to look up to their moms (or parents in general) for this sort of thing. Right now I'm speaking from the point of view of the child.. my mother is one of those who let herself go and I know that I would have really appreciated someone who was more put together. It would have helped my self image while growing up for sure.

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When you state that a child becomes a women's reason for living.. that thought process could be part of the problem.. caring about the child while forgetting to care about yourself.

If you're talking physically, I made it a point not to let myself go (for my child, for my husband.. but foremost for me).

I do know that sometimes it's hard for a woman's body to "snap" back after being stretched carrying a baby.. in that respect at least mothers have a reason.. what's the father's excuse?

If you're talking about "dress" .. heck everyone has let themselves go! You no longer have to dress up for work, for church, for anything. It has to be a "formal" occasion for most women (myself included) to even put on an actual dress.

Sadly, being a parent doesn't erase all the other problems in a mother's life.. it may even add to them.

When you state it would have helped your self image while growing up.. are you stating that you were embarressed by your mom's appearance?

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Oh, not at all. See, I was (and am) an only child, so I think my parents influenced me more than they would have if I had siblings (they say siblings are your biggest influence). My mom never dressed well, so I didn't know how to dress well growing up. It makes a kid's life tough.. all you want to do is fit in, but how can you if you have no one to show you the way. It wasn't until college that that all changed and I found an amazing sense of confidence.

Growing up as an only child, my mom was my role model. I think part of the reason she didn't dress well is because she was never happy with her body, and that kind of insecurity is very transparent to children and they pick up on it I think.

Why do you say you no longer have to dress up for work?

If I could go back and meet my 10 year old self? Wow.. great question and alot of my advice echo pj's!!

Don't be so self-conscious. While you're so busy thinking everyone's looking at you.. in reality they're too busy thinking everyone's looking at them.

Don't quit trying in school. Those 12 or 16+ years of schooling will determine the quality of life for you and for your family. Since most people are living to be in their 90s.. that's a long time to regret the career you could have had or the money you could have earned.

Do get honest with yourself and be honest with others. Life is definately simpler when you tell the truth.. it can really get difficult keeping track of what lie you told to who and when!

His wanting to have sex with you doesn't necessarity means that he loves you.. sometimes it just means that he wants to get laid. You will know the difference if you listen to your gut.

Learn to be true to yourself and to heed that voice in your head. If it tells you to walk away from something or someone.. listen to it!!

Life is short! I can vividly remember sitting in my room as a girl wondering if I'd ever date, then if I'd ever get married, have kids, etc. Life seems LOOOOOONG when you're young and then one day you wake up and you're married and/or have kids of your own.

With respect to the above, I wish I'd started saving money beginning with my first paycheck in a moneymarket account and I will make sure my son does so. No one should have to worry about having to work when they're in their 70s because they have no money put aside.

There were times that I felt like things were so horrible that they'd never get better.. that I only had one option. BUT, if you hold on.. and have faith.. things will get better. Bad don't last always!

I am going to close my post with pj's final thought as it's so very profound:

Finally... life is going to be better than you are even remotely capable of understanding or knowing. You are going to have everything you want in life and so much more - but what you end up wanting is going to surprise you very much. You ARE going to be OK... and end up playing a very important role in many lives.

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Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Oh, not at all. See, I was (and am) an only child, so I think my parents influenced me more than they would have if I had siblings (they say siblings are your biggest influence). My mom never dressed well, so I didn't know how to dress well growing up. It makes a kid's life tough.. all you want to do is fit in, but how can you if you have no one to show you the way. It wasn't until college that that all changed and I found an amazing sense of confidence.

Growing up as an only child, my mom was my role model. I think part of the reason she didn't dress well is because she was never happy with her body, and that kind of insecurity is very transparent to children and they pick up on it I think.

Why do you say you no longer have to dress up for work?

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I understand now about your mom and how you didn't learn to dress well. Believe me if your mom didn't like her body.. she probably went out of her way to cover it up.. or didn't go out of her way to dress it up.

I'm so proud of you in that you found your self confidence on your own (that makes it mean it so much more and can only make you stronger)!

When I first started at my job we were required to wear dresses, pantsuits, etc. but, as time went on we now have a "business casual" policy which basically means that we can wear jeans, t-shirts, jogging suits, practically anything but pajamas. You'd be amazed at what I've seen some women and men wear to work (and this is a fortune 500 company).

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Thanks for your insight, Clairity!! :)

I rather like the sound of "business casual."

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Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Thanks for your insight, Clairity!! :)

I rather like the sound of "business casual."

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You're so very welcome!

And yeah "business casual" is great.. especially if you don't feel well but still have to go in to work!

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I'm 35, and I can at least offer some perspective on what it's like to have a 1970's childhood and a 1980's adolescence, if anybody is into that sort of thing.

My parents were big time disco fans in the 70's, and I thought disco was a major part of the way the world works. I didn't know it was just a fad. My father was a huge classic rock fan too, which at the time was just "rock". It hadn't become classic yet. I remember three albums he played all the time in the late 70's-- Peter Frampton's Frampton Comes Alive, Fleetwood Mac's Rumors, and the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack. All three of those albums became top five of all time best sellers. My mother took me to see the movie Saturday Night Fever, THE disco movie. It was a pop culture phenomenon. I still have big time childhood nostalgia when I watch that movie or listen to songs from it. The television shows were great then, even though there were only four channels-- NBC, ABC, CBS, and PBS. HBO started catching on in 1979. Cartoons and some other children's shows were on the three networks every Saturday morning from sunrise until 11:00 a.m. They were switched up a good bit every season, so over the course of my childhood there were tons of children's shows to encounter on Saturday mornings, and the shows were so cool then. It was in style for guys to have fairly long or bushy hair, even business men. Cut off jeans and tube socks, pulled up close to the knees, with colorful bands (usually two colors with a different color between them) were totally in style, and jerseys that didn't look like they were supposed to be worn in games were big. It was a very artistic and inspiriational time. I think the 1970's is the greatest decade of culture and entertainment in human history. I love knowing that I was there for all of that. It was the best decade ever to be a child, I think.

Then came the 1980's. A lot of what I said about the 70's went out the window, but I had a lot of fun. A lot of great heavy metal bands got big in the 80's, and I made it a point to see their concerts. Jackson doesn't get a lot of good musical acts because we are closely surrounded by New Orleans, Memphis, Dallas, and Atlanta. I wasn't old enough to go to those cities and spend the night without parental supervision. However, the biggest heavy metal bands of the 80's came to Jackson. Fortunately for me, that was my favorite type of music. I saw Judas Priest in 1984, when they were my favorite band. I saw Ratt in 1985 and 1987, when they were my favorite band. I saw Metallica in 1989, when they were my favorite band. I saw Bon Jovi before they were famous, when they opened up for Ratt. I also saw Guns 'N Roses before they were famous, when they opened up for Motley Crue. I saw lots of other big ones also. I really wish I saw Van Halen in 1984, but I didn't become a fan until a few months after they played here. The music of the 80's, aside from heavy metal, was mostly not supergreat, although mostly good, but I'm glad I was there for the birth of MTV. It was a 24 hour a day music video network then. There were videos, hosts (V.J.'s), and commercials. Nothing else. I watched it all the time. There were good televisions shows and movies too, but nothing like what came out in the 70's. For most of the 80's, my social life was riding my BMX bike around the neighborhood with friends and house hopping and playing neighborhood sports. I don't see kids doing that as much these days. Video games really, really caught on in 1982. That was the year Atari became gigantic. Atari was the original home video game system. It paved the way for X Box and Playstation. I got my driver's license in 1987 and began a long streak of piling people into my large car and riding around all over the place and hanging out in parking lots. That was very in style then. I think the police have cracked down on that in most places now.

I think most of us were there for the 90's. I guess I'll let a younger person talk about that decade on this site in 20 years. :)

I'm not as old a PJ or Clairity (ha-ha, I just called you old :D ) but I'm not too far lagging. However, I'm plenty old enough to recognize sound, thoughtful advice like what you've given. It's actually some of the best advice I've heard in quite some time. It seems that far too many people are overly selfish and don't bother to think past today.

It's wonderful that we've got people here who are mature enough to understand what really matters in life. There's not much for me to say other than that I'm proud to be able to associate with people of your stature. I wish your collective message could be spoon-fed to every young-er person in the world.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaught

It's wonderful that we've got people here who are mature enough to understand what really matters in life. There's not much for me to say other than that I'm proud to be able to associate with people of your stature. I wish your collective message could be spoon-fed to every young-er person in the world.

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You know what spoon-feeding generally leads to? Gagging.

My folks and relatives tried to warn and guide me. I would have none of it. My early teenage self would have dismissed my present self as a fool, and that would have been that.

Thanks for the kind words. This wasn't intended to be some kind of mountaintop though, just an opportunity to maybe open a conversation between generations in a relaxed context without worry about repercussions.

My generation are just a bunch of foolish kids to my parents' generation, God bless 'em. My dad's going to be 89 this year. I wrote a bit about him earlier in the thread. We spent the morning yesterday replacing one of the front hubs on my car. His older brother still golfs twice a week - walking and pulling his clubs.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaught

I'm not as old a PJ or Clairity (ha-ha, I just called you old :D )

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Watch-it! :wtf:

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Originally Posted by Oneironaught

but I'm not too far lagging. However, I'm plenty old enough to recognize sound, thoughtful advice like what you've given. It's actually some of the best advice I've heard in quite some time. It seems that far too many people are overly selfish and don't bother to think past today.

It's wonderful that we've got people here who are mature enough to understand what really matters in life. There's not much for me to say other than that I'm proud to be able to associate with people of your stature. I wish your collective message could be spoon-fed to every young-er person in the world.

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Wow.. thanks! :oops: (You are herebye forgiven for the "old" crack)!

Seriously, I'm just glad that I could give advice that someone might actually read and find useful (or relevant). :content:

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Wow, awesome thread.

I have a question: what would you consider the toughest thing you've faced in your life? And then what would you consider the happiest?

It's fun to contrast.

Oh, and one thing; I remember when I was young I'd ask someone how old they were, and they'd say, "55... I'm old!" and I'd always say, "55 isn't old! 155 is old!" and then they'd laugh. I guess what I'm trying to say is 40 is not really that much and there's nothing to worry about. :D

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Originally Posted by CoLd BlooDed

Wow, awesome thread.

I have a question: what would you consider the toughest thing you've faced in your life? And then what would you consider the happiest?

It's fun to contrast.

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Wow - another fabulous question. Thank you!

The happiest is much easier than the toughest, because the toughest is still very hard to write about.

The day I got married was incredible. Being there when both our children came into this world was even better. There are many many other experiences that are way up there... including the moment my lower extremities started functioning again before they committed surgery on my back after I broke it falling off the cliff.

The toughest. Ok.

I've talked about my mother-in-law in other threads. She was my friend before I ever met her daughter. My wife and I have chosen to take on some challenging (to put it mildly) responsibilities. These choices divided our family, because many chose not to recognize the reality of what as going on. My wife's mother was the one who made it her business to know the reality of it all, diving right in to do all she could to support us. She was our rock when the rest of the world seemed to have abandoned us.

She was also a life-long "functional" alcoholic. For all she was to us, she chose to live in a world the way she imagined it should be rather than the way it was. As a result of this, a fight with her condo association ended up in her getting evicted. She didn't know or believe it was coming, and she otherwise owned her condo outright and had everything paid up.

She returned home from work on a rainy Thursday evening, finding all her worldly possessions sitting out in the yard. She went into the garage, tried her key in the door and found the lock had been changed. And she died... right there.

A neighbor found her the following morning. I was on my way to pick up my wife to take her to lunch when we got the call from the police. They didn't tell us what had happened, but we knew. Or we thought we knew. We knew her mother was dead. We arrived at the condo, entering in a way that we couldn't see the yard. Her body was still laying in the garage. We learned for sure of her death, and started dealing with that.

Then the officer said that the shock of the eviction must have brought on a heart attack. Eviction? That was when we walked around the side and saw what we were facing on top of the death.

We called friends and family, who brought trucks and trailers and people. An uncle emptied out a pole barn for us. Because of friends and family who were willing to walk into that rain-soaked hell alongside us, we were able to deal with it... and survive it.

That 24 hours was the toughest thing I've ever had to endure. We faced the loss of the "third parent" in our household, my wife's mother, my friend, our children's beloved grandmother, and had to do the dirty work of an estate clean-out before the funeral arrangements had even begun to be made.

This is the short version, for as long as it is. During the whole experience, the lines between friends and family blurred. We were held up when we couldn't even think. We were fed and cared for. As horrible as it was, I have more gratitude for all those who came forward for us than I can express or will ever have the opportunity to repay.

**EDIT**
I came back here to delete this, then decided to leave it.

I was thinking that as hard as this was for us to deal with, so many others we know have dealt with more difficult things. This couldn't hold a candle to a parent losing a child... and I know several who have. I know families who have fled Communist countries, bringing nothing with them but faith, leaving their entire world behind and risking their lives in the process. I know men who escaped prison camps during wars. I know and have met people who lost parents and other loved ones to death camps and the killing fields.

Life is full of trauma and tribulation. We humans can be amazingly resilient. While it is important to remember, it is also important to get on with life, which is done in part by staying focused on the good stuff.

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Originally Posted by Mes Tarrant

Okay you're a guy but I have a question about mothers which you might be able to answer since you're married...

Is it very common for women to "let themselves go" after childbirth in terms of their appearance (dress, body)? It seems to me like it is, and that worries me. I feel like having a kid should enhance your life in every way, including self-image. If you're happily married and with a kid, then you have it all and you should look like it too. But I tend to see mothers left and right who look like slobs and don't seem very happy and it scares me.

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Well...lets see I am 32, so not quite the fossil that pj is **Smirks**, but surely I am in the 'older' category on this site because all I seem to be reading is how young everyone is. Scary!!


Okay, so this 'let themselves go' theory, is real...I lived it. However I think for each woman you see like that, there is an underlying issue that is being avoided or ignored. I am a beautiful woman, I know that. I was beautiful when I married, and I am beautiful now.. but I was not so beautiful towards the end of my marriage. Why? I was not happy. Some people will tell you that you can look like total hell, and still be happy. Hmm.. could be true, but not likely. People who ARE happy, will look it. We have bad days, we look like hell sometimes, but the overall look usually does not follow that pattern.

Why do women (and men) "let themselves go"? I can only speak for me, so here it goes... I was unhappy at home, with my husband and so inturn, with myself. I stopped caring what I looked like, stop caring how I felt, because inside, I felt like no one else cared either. I put all of my energy into raising my children and did not leave ANY in reserve for ME. Should I have put my kids 2nd? Yes and no. NO, I should not stop caring, loving, protecting and teaching my children.. but YES, I should take care of myself first. If I am not healthy and capable, how will I ever care for them?

My failed marriage (many reasons, not the place for it here in THIS topic) ended and I took control of my life again. I have full custody of my 4 children, I work full time and have a variety of sports and activites that my children are in that I am completely active in alongside of them. I run them to golf lessons, dance lessons, soccer lessons, the park to play, school activies, cub scouts (Im a Den Leader too) ...but I realize one thing, I am their role model. I do what I can for them and I do it by being at MY PERSONAL BEST. During my "let go" days, I gained 40 lbs.. yeah, I know, yikes! But when I decided I was in control of my life and no one was going to carry me the whole way, I got my divorce and took better care of myself. I didn't go on a crash diet or join a gym, I just paid attention to myself a bit more.. and I dropped 35 lbs... naturally... and I am 40times busier than I was before and I have lost any help from having a spouse around, and at times I am so exhausted I cannot believe I am even conscious. However, I am happier than I have ever been. And it shows. I have offically "got myself back."

So, yes it happens, but it can unhappen.