This is a problem with me in spanish... I can do a uvular trill (rolling the r's with the uvula... the hangy thing in your throat that if you touch you puke). But in spanish, the uvular trill is never used... I can do a crappy version of an alveolar trill, but I dont think I am doing it right (my tongue vibrates a little, but its more of a fart noise... and when I talk while doing it its more of talking with a background of a fart noise).
It's funny how I can pronounce the alveolar trill, because it's in the Scottish dialect; but I can't describe how to pronounce it. Go to this site, click on the part for pulmonic consonants and you can listen to a demonstration of it. It should be easy to find in the table.
Try thrusting the tip of the tongue up to behind your upper teeth and voicing it there.
When I do it, I don't but it quite up to my teeth, I go slightly further back on the roof of my mouth. It's not important to be able to do a sustained trill. A lot of native speakers can't even do it. If you find that even with practice you still really can't do it, a common shortcut is to do a cross between that and saying a "d" sound. So "para", (for), could be faked by saying "pa-r/d-a".
I can roll my r's but I seldom do, and most native speakers don't either. The ones on the spanish channels do, only because they're on tv and have to speak completely properly, as the networks make them. But most people don't realistically do it all the way. Even though they really should. Hope this helps.
I can do it, but I don't know how.
its more of a type of blow to get the tounge moving lol
Say "pot o' tea" repeatedly. Let yourself say it lazily, though. Eventually it will sound like "para ti" which is somthing in spanish. You should hear the roll going on a little.
Para ti = for you. :D
Hm, rainman, that is not right... para does NOT have a rolled r. There are two different r sounds in spanish - the r "tap" (such as in para... NOT rolled) and the double r... the rolled R. The r tap sounds more like an english D. The tongue flicks the alveolar ridge (or a little higher up) to make the sound. There is no R rolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainman
And can I ask who told you that most native speakers don't roll their r's? I just finished spending a month in Ecuador... everyone rolls their r's - constantly. So yes, people realistically do it, a lot. And every ecuadorian who I asked was able to do a sustained trill easily. If they didn't roll their r's, they wouldn't be able to differentiate between, for example, perro and pero or carro and caro. I just want to keep you from being misinformed - people roll their r's a LOT in spanish.
I have something from my Spanish textbook which could help u.
It is a refran (refrain): erre con erre: guitarra
erre con erre: barril
Que rapido corren los carros, los carros en ferrocarril!
O jeeze i always complain about that trombone site I used to be on about all the repetive topics (a "how to play higher advice" thread everyday pretty much) and this is one that always came up because it is a technique you use when playing (flutter tonguing). I can't do it, don't see a need to, probably won't ever be able to, and don't care if I am never able to. So there! (although you can do it and make it sound like you're hitting ultra low notes):banana:
Ok, let me try...
First try to make a trill sound that do roll but do not sound like rrrrr.
roll you tongue up until it reach the ceiling of the mouth, at the front area of it:
If this is your mouth from the side and G is the tongue, and T is the teeth.
In order for this to work, your tongue must touch the ceiling extremely loosely, almost not touching it all.Code:ooooooooo
oooo G o
G T
G T
GGGGGGG
T
oooo ooT
oooooooo
Now tighten your diaphragm and apply air pressure on the tip of the tongue area, and touch the ceiling with your tongue simultaneously.
The air pressure push the tip of tongue down so that it stops touching the ceiling, but your muscle pressure on the tongue immediately snaps it back up and so on, causing the vibration.
It's like a war between the air pressure, coming from the diaphragm, that push the tongue away from the ceiling ( the air is coming between the tongue and the ceiling, pushing it down ), and muscle pressure of the tongue that want it to stay attached to the ceiling.
The key is to balance these two forces. If they are equally strong, you will reach point of balance that alternates between the two, and this is the vibration.
I'll give you an example to make you understand what I mean by this power balance.
Try to slide your finger on something smooth like a table. use the tip of the finger, not the nail side, but the soft tip of the finger is touching the table. apply strong pressure on it, and slide it on the table in a way that makes the tip of finger vibrate. If you do it right, then it will make a low noise too, depending on the material of the table. If you use too much force to push the finger down, then it will stay in it's place and not move. If you don't apply enough pressure then it will slide smoothly on the table without any vibration. Only when the two forces ( The push down force, and the slide sideways force ) are in equals power, you reach a point of balance where the effect on the finger is alternating between the two forces, causing a vibration.
Well exactly the same thing is happening with tongue, with the air replacing the sideways force, and the tongue muscle replacing the arm muscles.
But this just makes the trill sound. If you succeed in doing that, you can make it sound like rrrrrrrr.
For this you have to do something additional, and that is to make a ahh sound. You know the sound that you make with you vocal cords when you say ahhhh, or when you hum. If you make this sound together with the trill you will get the rrrrrrr.
Thank you dodobird that was a very good description. What I DON'T understand is how to keep the tongue tip relaxed while simultaneously putting upward pressure on it to keep the air from keeping it down.
Try to let it touch loosely, then apply the air pressure, and try to use minimal force possible to keep it in it's place. From there I think it's a matter of practice until you find just the right amount of tongue pressure to keep it in place, but not too much tongue pressure that will make it stuck there.