Thread: Ask me about VEGANISM

Know what I find ironic... Well I'm a vegetarian, and I get my mum to buy all sorts of soya milk and Quorn products, but she won't try them at all. She says they're too weird or something. After all the crap they put in meat these days and all the fat you get in it and all that stuff, and then you get Quorn which isn't made out of animals, and my mum who eats all sorts of meat and weird stuff, won't even TRY quorn or anything like that!

I don't have a problem with people eating meat-it's a free country, but I think people should try and branch out and try different things. I have to say I barely knew what Soya milk was (and I drink this just because I prefer it to milk) before I became a veggie, and I had no idea about all the Quorn products and other veggie stuff you can buy. I think people should try it and they may like it and not have to eat meat so much. Like I said though it is a free country.

Originally Posted by Jules2007

Know what I find ironic... Well I'm a vegetarian, and I get my mum to buy all sorts of soya milk and Quorn products, but she won't try them at all. She says they're too weird or something. After all the crap they put in meat these days and all the fat you get in it and all that stuff, and then you get Quorn which isn't made out of animals, and my mum who eats all sorts of meat and weird stuff, won't even TRY quorn or anything like that!

I find that ironic too. My dad did the same when I was a vegetarian teenager. My mum would cook nut roasts every so often, but if we were all eating something vegetarian he would insist on having meat mixed in with his serving.

I am Vegan at the moment. I don't think its an eating disorder. I have heard veganism being called one because some people get obsessive about moral and healthy eating.

Anyway, my question. Where is the line in veganism for you? If for instance you are out on a long walk and the only food available has an e number you don't recognise, do you eat it? For instance. Also, whats wrong with honey? Isn't that relationship fairly symbiotic. I don't know much about farming.

Originally Posted by apachama

I find that ironic too. My dad did the same when I was a vegetarian teenager. My mum would cook nut roasts every so often, but if we were all eating something vegetarian he would insist on having meat mixed in with his serving.

I am Vegan at the moment. I don't think its an eating disorder. I have heard veganism being called one because some people get obsessive about moral and healthy eating.

Anyway, my question. Where is the line in veganism for you? If for instance you are out on a long walk and the only food available has an e number you don't recognise, do you eat it? For instance. Also, whats wrong with honey? Isn't that relationship fairly symbiotic. I don't know much about farming.

Yeh, it's weird, I wish my mum would try it, I think she might like it, but she's tried Soya Milk and doesn't like it, that's about the only thing I've gotten her to try!

Know what annoyed me, well I've considered myself a veggie for about 2 yrs, and I just realised a few weeks ago that fruit pastills (which I love!) have gelatine in them, was so annoyed! So I guess I can only say I've been a veggie for a few weeks?!

I would like an answer to that question too about where you draw the line. I thought about becoming a Vegan, but for me I think it's too complicated-that's for me personally. If someone made a Vegan store near me then it'd be a lot easier.

Also with the honey question, I know your question is for Ben, but I think the reason is because a lot of the bees get killed (trampled on etc) while the honey is collected- I'm sure I read that but I could be wrong. I'll leave that for Ben to ellaborate on. Also, I would think that because you are making a statement about not eating anything from an animal, you have to not eat honey either, regardless of the methods used in farming it.

Gelatine is a bastard. My general rule is to do the best I can. We all accidentally eat something with animal products in. The trick is to at least remember to check for it.

Originally Posted by apachama

Gelatine is a bastard. My general rule is to do the best I can. We all accidentally eat something with animal products in. The trick is to at least remember to check for it.

Yeh I know, I should've checked, I should know that all those kinda sweets have it in em! Ugh even if I wasn't a vegetarian, the thought of Gelatine in sweets is enough to put me off them anyway! Maybe one day they can make them without gelatine. I wonder who first came up with the idea- "hey, I know a great thing to put in sweets..."!

I know a great thing to put in copper - cow bones.

Originally Posted by Serkat

I know a great thing to put in copper - cow bones.

WTF?

My general rule is to do the best I can. We all accidentally eat something with animal products in. The trick is to at least remember to check for it.

DING. This pretty much sums me up.

I can't really comment to veganism, but I've been a vegetarian for about 3.5 years now, and I'm quite a bit healthier than I ever was when I ate meat.

I agree that there are a lot of people who cut meat out of their diet that end up with issues of malnutrition, but there are plenty of people out there who eat meat that have terrible malnutrition issues as well.

It is true that some people who make the switch don't realize that their bodies need certain amounts of things to run at optimal efficiency. It's easy for some people to miss the fact that they can't necessarily just subtract the meat and eat what they used to, as many times those diets revolved around meat. But I wouldn't put the blame on vegetarianism, but rather on the way our current society almost totally ignores education about nutrition. Once we get past the food pyramid, education about "eating right" sort of stops. A vegetarian who is conscious of their nutritional needs can have a perfectly healthy diet. An excellent book/cook book on the matter is Laurel's Kitchen.

Personally, I just couldn't justify eating meat anymore, once I honestly examined my reasons for doing so. They mostly came down to "because I like it", and when I thought about it, it seemed pretty selfish. As I said, though, this was a personal decision.

I'm not one of those "in-your-face, preachy" vegetarians. I choose to eat what I eat, and if others are inspired to question their own diets by seeing my choices, I like that just fine. In general, most people seem to make a bigger deal of my vegetarianism than I do of their meat-filled diet. Some even seem honestly offended that I would dare commit the ultimate heresy of refusing meat. I've had more than my fair share of people arguing at me about why I should eat meat. How's that for your stereotype reversal?

One of the big things that I think people overlook in the meat/veg issue is that of energy shrinkage. It can take up to 16 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of edible animal flesh. Grain that could be eaten by people, I might add. Add this to the massive overproduction of meat-livestock in America (it's where I live, and thus what I know most about), and the ridiculous figures about how much meat/protein should be in the average American's diet, and that adds up to a lot of food that could have been.

I do have a question about veganism, though, and I assume that the answer varies from person to person. What's your stance on leavened bread?

Originally Posted by H Savvy

I do have a question about veganism, though, and I assume that the answer varies from person to person. What's your stance on leavened bread?

Again, I'm no longer vegan (just had a great burger w/ mozz down the street), but was for 4+ years. I think it's safe to say few if any vegans concern themselves with yeasts. Many use brewer's yeast as a dietary supplement and flavoring element. In a vegan restaurant where I worked, we had zero qualms with making baguette as long as it wasn't Passover. At the same time, if you're used to relying on sliced bread (the worst invention since rifled barrels), you'll find most include animal ingredients like eggs or whey, not to mention undesirable elements like HFCS. While I was vegan, my diet at home shifted almost entirely to flatbreads, mostly lavash, and that's one thing that has stuck--I still prefer soya to cows' milk, and I still prefer flatbread to any plush loaf in an average grocery.

If you're going to eat something as complex as plantlife, eukaryotes are pretty much fair game.

That's more or less my stance on it, but then again, I also eat honey.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

At the same time, if you're used to relying on sliced bread (the worst invention since rifled barrels), you'll find most include animal ingredients like eggs or whey, not to mention undesirable elements like HFCS.

Really? Wow. I need to research more than I have done.

I buy my bread organic from the local bakers. I kind of assumed it would be safe. I guess I should ask.

Originally Posted by H Savvy

One of the big things that I think people overlook in the meat/veg issue is that of energy shrinkage. It can take up to 16 pounds of grain to produce just 1 pound of edible animal flesh. Grain that could be eaten by people, I might add. Add this to the massive overproduction of meat-livestock in America (it's where I live, and thus what I know most about), and the ridiculous figures about how much meat/protein should be in the average American's diet, and that adds up to a lot of food that could have been.

This drives me crazy too. I go nuts trying to figure out the final energy cost of consumables. I do this every day at work trying to research green building materials. So many things you need to factor in, it gives me a headache. It is especially bad with recycled materials. Sometimes the energy cost to recycle something is worse than the initial cost of production. Wood and paper products often fall into this category.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

At the same time, if you're used to relying on sliced bread (the worst invention since rifled barrels), you'll find most include animal ingredients like eggs or whey, not to mention undesirable elements like HFCS.

I've been a little out of the loop (pretty obvious, from all my posts in this thread ), why would HFCS be bad in bread? Has it ever been shown conclusively that the body processes HFCS any differently than any other sugars? Last I heard, they were still trying to figure it out, but were shown to be identical, given equal amounts. Or is it the process used to increase the fructose content? Or a political sugar-tariff-protest thing?

In regards to veganism, what is the main argument against eating eggs and milk? Is it the conditions under which they are harvested? An animal treatment thing?

I'm not entirely sure about the eggs, and I think that comes from the gross mistreatment of large amounts of the egg-producing poultry these days. As for milk, I believe it has to do with the question: "What do you do with the calf?"

The main argument is that animals should have equal rights to humans and shouldn't be used for anything at all, such as food, food production, fur, leather, as pets etc.

On the animal treatment side, the main arguments are:

Eggs: Every year hundreds of millions of male chickens have to be killed after birth because they don't lay eggs.
Milk: The cows are repeatedly artificially inseminated so that they constantly produce milk and the calves are taken from them after birth.

._.
No wonder I'm not a vegan.
I'll stick with just plain ol' vegetarianism, thanx

I'd like to ask the OP if he has any pets? If not, are you against people keeping animals as pets? I kinda wish we'd never domesticated animals sometimes, but there's not a lot we can do about it now I suppose.

Originally Posted by Serkat

The main argument is that animals should have equal rights to humans and shouldn't be used for anything at all, such as food, food production, fur, leather, as pets etc.

On the animal treatment side, the main arguments are:

Eggs: Every year hundreds of millions of male chickens have to be killed after birth because they don't lay eggs.
Milk: The cows are repeatedly artificially inseminated so that they constantly produce milk and the calves are taken from them after birth.

That would be the proverbial tip of the iceberg, yes. In fact, in Germany that might be about the worst of it, as animal cruelty laws are in place and sometimes even enforced. When I lived in Columbus, OH, most of the grocery store eggs were coming from Buckeye Egg Farms, owned and operated by a gentleman who had been forbidden from working with animals in Germany because of practices which are standard in the industry over here. You can look up the details somewhere like http://www.mercyforanimals.org/ The gist is, you wouldn't want to eat something that came out of this environment regardless of your capacity for empathy. Egg layers get the worst of it, as they are not regulated either as animals or as food under U.S. law, but it's not much better for pigs and cows.

Some people adopt a vegan diet from an absolute conviction that animals should not serve human ends, but for many it's more about the dystopian Rube Goldberg edifice we've erected to choke our veins with their flesh and effluents.

Ok, so its more the treatment of the animals. I agree that it iis pretty disgusting.

Originally Posted by Taosaur

...it's more about the dystopian Rube Goldberg edifice we've erected...

Nicely put. That pretty much sums up all of human civilization. I totally agree that it's all pretty ridiculous. I guess you pick your battles, but I can't see how the animal treatment is worse than our treatment of humans, or our mass farming of plants, or strip mining of coal. Maybe animals are just more likable than humans or plants. I can see how you need to draw the line somewhere.

But then again, I'm not really an idealist. I try to work with what we have. We made chickens and cows to do nothing but produce. I can't really see releasing them back into a natural habitat as being an option. We make cows and chickens, like we make any products. Like we make trees expressly to be cut down and turned into paper. We use biological processes, but I don't see how that makes it any different. What should we do, just stop making chickens? Wouldn't they just become extinct? These animals only exist because we made them in the first place.

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

Nicely put. That pretty much sums up all of human civilization. I totally agree that it's all pretty ridiculous. I guess you pick your battles, but I can't see how the animal treatment is worse than our treatment of humans, or our mass farming of plants, or strip mining of coal. Maybe animals are just more likable than humans or plants. I can see how you need to draw the line somewhere.

I wouldn't say all of civilization is a "dystopian Rube Goldberg edifice." Where culture, including agriculture, develops from the ground up on the basis of artisans and craftspeople pursuing and passing on vocations in a manner that encourages regional diversity, it works pretty well. We have the systems we have because we deprioritized both food production and consumption for several generations and all but lost sight of the notion of vocation, instead pursuing any lucrative job in order to acquire more stuff. It's neither necessary nor inevitable that we live this way, and from my perspective it's not too desirable, either (granted I don't have an air-conditioned McMansion).

Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

But then again, I'm not really an idealist. I try to work with what we have. We made chickens and cows to do nothing but produce. I can't really see releasing them back into a natural habitat as being an option. We make cows and chickens, like we make any products. Like we make trees expressly to be cut down and turned into paper. We use biological processes, but I don't see how that makes it any different. What should we do, just stop making chickens? Wouldn't they just become extinct? These animals only exist because we made them in the first place.

I'm not categorically opposed to animal agriculture, and wasn't when I was vegan, but if you want it to nourish your culture rather than promoting violence and deadening empathy, it has to be pursued with respect for life. There is no reason for industrial agriculture to exist, certainly not on its present scale. You're not nourishing yourself by lusting after animal flesh to the point that you're obese and/or your heart is choking on animal fats, not to mention your rivers choking on shit. No, these animals would not exist in the these numbers if we weren't breeding them so relentlessly for their short stay in hell: that's the point. It doesn't serve us and it definitely doesn't serve them to invite billions of beings every year into these conditions so that we can eat poor quality meat, eggs and dairy in unhealthy quantities.

I am vegie and was wonderin

you know them quorn sausages and meat you can buy.
Can you eat them?

as a vegan? Or as a vegetarian?

Because no animals were killed to prepare Quorn, but they contain egg whites as a binding agent.

So, personally, I eat them. Vegans wouldn't.
Tofurkey is vegan, but also kinda gross and not nearly as good as Quorn stuff. Go mycoprotein!!

Originally Posted by H Savvy

as a vegan? Or as a vegetarian?

Because no animals were killed to prepare Quorn, but they contain egg whites as a binding agent.

So, personally, I eat them. Vegans wouldn't.
Tofurkey is vegan, but also kinda gross and not nearly as good as Quorn stuff. Go mycoprotein!!

was wonderin if vegan folk can eat them


you answered my question thanks