Can someone with mental disorders learn to lucid dream?

I have very very severe anxiety and depression. Like the kind where every second of every moment of every day you want to slit your throat to stop the anxiety. It''s related to people (social anxiety) but as well as just a general feeling of extreme anxiety, even when I'm by myself.

Obviously I have sleep problems... and I spoke with a therapist who knows a lot about lucid dreaming who said that lucid dreaming comes much more easily for those who are mentally healthy.

I just want to hear from people who are SEVERELY anxious and depressed (I'm not talking about sad over losing a girl or something, that's an entirely different emotion). I've been this way for 15 years (22 years old) so I don't think it's going away. I've tried every possible traditional and alternative treatment out there.

But this isn't about me getting better... the question is, have any of you attained lucidity despite being VERY anxious and depressed? I just want to have half my life (that spent dreaming :)) to be happy and joyful and full of love. We all know that dreams are just as realistic seeming as real life when you're in them...

Occasionally, I do have very intense dreams but most times I don't remember having any dreams at all. My therapist says this is a symptom of depression/anxiety, because I'm not going into a deep enough sleep state. But a dream I had 2 nights ago gave me hope. It was that kind of dream that was so real that you had to stop and wake up and think for a second... did that really happen? I thought I was in a small town in France, flirting with this insanely smoking chicka. It was so detailed I even remembered the girl's face and the name of the town when I woke up. I even looked it up on wikipedia :D. So that gives me hope.

But give me straight talk please, not speculation. I'm mostly interested in hearing from people with severe anxiety and depression too. (I'm not talking "stress" either, like I said, this is the kind of anxiety that makes you want to slit your throat to stop the pain)

P.S. PLEASE don't fill this thread with "I'm sure you'll get better!", "Just start exercising" etc... again this is NOT about me geting better, I'm already persuing avenues in that direction.... this is about me attaining lucidity.

As far as what I take... I take clonazepam (a benzo), budeprion (an SSRI), and occasionally smoke pot when I can afford it. I drink too sometimes but don't like it nearly as much as pot. But hey, it's dirt cheap and legal, and helps me fall asleep at night. Would any of these interfere with lucid dreaming. I know after a good nightly pot smoke I feel VERY well rested in the morning. Not so with booze of course, which is fucking evil as I think everyone knows. But what about the meds? My life is a living hell without the benzo so I really would like to stay on it.

thanks, and sorry for the long ass post.

Does meditating help? I'm not exactly a therapist or mental health expert but is it possible for you to clear your mind of all anxious/depressed emotions before going to bed?

Maybe doing some relaxing meditation before you go to bed will help, just a meditation focusing on dreaming and forgetting all of your negative thoughts.
The reason i say meditation is because whenever I have similar feelings and feel hopeless it usually helps me get into that certain state of mind where all I care about is what I am about to dream about.

As for interfering with lucid dreaming, I'm not sure about the medications you listed but alcohol isn't good for your sleep cycle and the use of pot is debatable in helping with lucid dreams, but I just find that it makes me lazier and unable to remember my dreams.

Hope I helped

cmon only one reply 76 views people?

I've tried meditation but I'm just too unfocused to be able to do it... but this isn't a thread about getting better, it's whether I can lucid dream... aka whether I should even bother trying!

Hello, first post here.

Depression and anxiety internalizes your awareness and makes it difficult to recognize things happening around you much less care about them. I think that the biggest road block for you is that lucidity requires that you step outside of yourself in waking life and be habitual in observing the details in life and questioning their validity. This will transfer into your dreams allowing you to be more observant and inquisitive of the sometimes bizarre things happening around you. So my first suggestion is to start really paying attention to details in everyday life. Try not to let your mind categorize things into "important", "unimportant", "Good", "Bad". Just look at everything fully and objectively. Notice how your eyes focus on things. Notice how colors fade in the distance. See the leaves on the tree rather than a bunch of green. If you see something out of place, question it! Since you didn't mention what you have already been doing, can we assume that you've been keeping a dream journal. People that don't need journals are rare. If you don't keep one and are serious, then start.

Unfortunately you say that you don't want this thread to detour into getting better, but self help may be the only way to accomplish your goals. If you can't clear your mind and focus on one thing single pointedly, then the chances of focusing on strange details of life and dreams will be slim. Can I recommend some casual meditation? I'll keep it short and simple. Simply sit still for several minutes in your sofa and think only of the word "relax". Really think what the word means to you and integrate it into yourself. Do this several times a day and try to increase the duration every few days. If you feel even the slightest bit more relaxed, go walking and try to observe as much detail as you can. Lucidity IS within your reach, but it won't be a casual objective. You'll have to work for it like most everyone else.

Oh, and ditch frequent alcohol use. It disrupts REM, often times totally eliminating it, causing 1) No dreams, and 2) No deep rest.

- -Barrett

The reason that Lucid Dreaming is available to man is because he has a mental disorder. You will find this in Scripture. However, should you come to understand that one does have this "dream guide" the purpose is not religion, but mental functionality.

The mind learns from experience. Dreams are specific to the specific psychological structure of the individual.

If you understand the mind to be one of several environmental acquisition systems, you realize that there are reasons for pain, even mental pain. Learn what the mind is, and one might learn how to care for it.

Hunger is not an illness. Lack of physical exercise is not an illness. Most mental pain is not an illness. However, there is always someone willing to bullshit you into meds to make a buck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philosopher8659

The reason that Lucid Dreaming is available to man is because he has a mental disorder. You will find this in Scripture. However, should you come to understand that one does have this "dream guide" the purpose is not religion, but mental functionality.

The mind learns from experience. Dreams are specific to the specific psychological structure of the individual.

If you understand the mind to be one of several environmental acquisition systems, you realize that there are reasons for pain, even mental pain. Learn what the mind is, and one might learn how to care for it.

Hunger is not an illness. Lack of physical exercise is not an illness. Most mental pain is not an illness. However, there is always someone willing to bullshit you into meds to make a buck.

---

Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about here. Can you clarify everything?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cerebrus

cmon only one reply 76 views people?

I've tried meditation but I'm just too unfocused to be able to do it... but this isn't a thread about getting better, it's whether I can lucid dream... aka whether I should even bother trying!

---

Well...You said you just wanted to hear from people who are SEVERELY anxious and depressed...
I can't say I am SEVERELY depressed...But I got easily depressed for no reason. That happens once every few months...
My opinion is you could try technique that don't waste your sleep time...And keep writing dreams you have in your dream journal.
The first step is to read ''Exploring the world of Lucid Dreaming'' by Stephen Laberge.
Lucid dream is so awesome that it's always worth trying. Motivation is the key.
Can be harder but not impossible.

Your digestive system has a job to do. If you do not know how to eat correctly, your health diminishes. It has hunger pains, several times a day, but that is not a sign of illness, only that it needs to feed.

Now, imagine this, Your mind has a job to do likewise. It too must feed and make a product. What would happen if social structure was designed to stop the mind from doing its job?

If perception determines conception, conception determines will.
What happens to the mind when environmental availability of needed abstractables are not presentf?
What happens when the product of a system is not allowed to deploy?

What happens when you steal the products of someone elses environmental acquisition systems? i.e. slave labor? etc. Know the sources and reason for pain and pleasure.

Dude I can tell you're trying to be helpful but you're talking wayyy too esoterically for me to understand what you're trying to get at ;)

I get the digestive system analogy. Are you suggesting that I need to "feed" my brain somehow?

And I'm curious, where in the bible does it say lucid dreaming is for those with mental issues? Are you just talking about sin and the brokenness of the human condition? Still, I can't remember any mention of dreaming...

Why do you think that when Lucid dreaming comes back, as it did, that man would eventually not teach man about God anymore, but God himself, whatever that be, will teach man? Have you read the entire text?

And, it tells you in the text, in several places, it is sealed to man's understanding, but that some day he would start to understand. It is about the evolution of the mind.

God is a metaphor in the Scripture, Truth.

Anyway, Yes, learn what the function of the mind is and how to feed it. Feeding the mind has little to do with memory.

At any rate, the progress you make in Lucid Dreaming is determined by your own abilities.

And how do I feed it? (this is getting kinda OT but I'm curious I have to admit on your perspective)

Well, lets just say, it is not possible for you to understand till you practice.

I have other posts you can follow up on, no need to repeat them.

Every environmental acquisition system of a living organism must acquire something from the environment, process that which it has acquired, for a product that maintains and promotes the life of the body.

Think about that, see how many you can locate from your own body.

If you cannot understand it, don't worry.

It is not OT it is dead on.

philosopher, i understand that you are so freaking smart but i know you can dumb it down a bit. i really enjoy reading your post (when i can read it) but seriously your like one of the only people that get it.

maybe try getting rid of the metaphores and get onto the point. and also answering questions with questions dont help.

anyway on topic, i think that that there is a high possiblity of you becomming lucid. start with the steps, and work on your recall. you could at least do a dream journal and try your best. if your dream recall starts to go up than in my opinion you are going to lucid dream at some point.

The point--we all have mental problems. That has never stopped anyone from lucid dreaming.
The point--lucid dreaming can be used to reduce mental problems.
Clear enough?

The point-I am here also for me--to learn how to approach communication with those whose associative abilities are more restrictive than mine. i.e. I am here to learn by trying.

Now, in saying so simply, did I work either your mind or mine? No.

Does not exercise improve health, not only in body but in mind? Yes.

When people go to a gym, how many of them do you see crying for attention?
How many of them do you see ranting and accusing those working out that they are snobs with airs of superiority?

Now, I just used a metaphor, can you take a hint on the contradictions in yourself on how you treat the same things in the same class?

Getting back to material in the original post. Depression is a pain. We do not fight the pain, go back in your mind to the gym, we recognize and deal with why we are in pain. The medical approach to depression is aimed at hiding problems, not solving them.

Let us go to another metaphor , When you touch a candle flame with your finger--the pain you feel does not indicate a problem with the finger, quite the reverse. It indicates that you did something wrong with the finger.

Ignorance of our own mind makes it difficult to understand mental pain. Keeping us in ignorance is not the solution. THANK YOU.

Now, life is a gym. buy a jock strap.

Now that was a snowball, here is an avalanche. I am the Devil (devil means doubt). When you instill doubt in someone, it is the first step they need to take for self-examination. They start to consider that what they thought they knew, they really did not.

When one is dead, the only path to life is by making friends with the devil.

Christ play the role of Lucifer. You will find it several places, Old and New. If you had understanding, Lucifer always worked with God.

Metaphors all.

Metaphor is no more than class mechanics, a function of the human mind. By it, we engage in self-examination by seeing how we react differently to the different members of the same class under the same definition, how we cause mental conflict to ourselves.

This is part of the lesson material of Lucid dreams. Metaphor is used to heal the mind, not destroy it. Thus, if the healing herbs cannot be administered, they have no use. So, if metaphor is used in lucid dreams to heal the mind, it obviously follows that mental problems do not hinder lucid dreaming, otherwise you would be calling the source of the lucid dreams an idiot for providing a cure but no path to get to them.

Why do you think I send people to Plato? In the realm of recorded history, under psycho-therapy, Plato was one of the best. Aristotle was not worth a rats ass, and the current crop are sending people straight to hell.

I do care.

Now, I am well aware that most people believe that Lucid Dreaming is solely for the purpose of mental masturbation, however, I am a bit older than that.

Now, if you really want this world to be a better place for us all, there is only one way. The Plan of God, lead the human mind to a state of virtue, -- to a state that it is doing its own job. Now, it does not matter if that plan were spoken by a rock, a tree, a field mouse, or the devil himself. It is a fact, the mind has a job to do, because in doing that job, we live.

I believe I put on a better rant than you. So there!

seems like you are interested in learning to read the code of life :-)
i really like that part about the plan of god, well written.
the path you seem to follow sounds like its the path of religio, keep it up :-)

Ummm, okay? well i wasnt ranting i was simply stating, if you want to help people you might want to use the proper termanology. in which case people can understand.

and by rant do you mean to speak or write in an angry or violent manner? because if so i was never angry. nor was i aggravated. is your goal on here to top a 14 year old? because if so thats pretty petty. But i guess i have no right to tell you how to speak.

Due to a few bad lifestyle choices I suddenly developed intense panic attacks/anxiety and depression that resulted in me being put on Beta Blockers. Im not sure how your medication works but its worth finding out. Beta blockers supress the adrenaline system "fight or flight" which ment I could relax slightly, Before I was on them I couldnt sleep at all, convinced that If I went to sleep I would die. Needed to keep opening my eyes every few minutes to focus on the wall and "ground" my mind to something real. I was all over the place.

The beta blockers didnt really have any negative impact on my dreams at all, nor did they effect my recall. I would say that depending on your medication, you will still be able to train yourself to lucid dream. Check it out though because some medication for anxiety suppress dreams or gives you "a dreamless sleep" to ward of nightmares etc.

However.......you need to stop smoking weed. Thats not just 'good advice' by the way. Thats fact. Smoking weed was the main reason I ended up with the anxiety and panic attacks. Smoking weed supresses REM sleep (where you have the dreams)....You can use it as a tool to supress REM and then the next day you get a 'rebound effect'.....I wouldnt imagine that will work for you to be honest so I wouldnt hedge by bets on this method. On top of this.....while your smoking weed its goddam awesome. You feel relaxed, good about yourself, creative all that. But its only making you MORE anxious. Its the worst possible thing you can do to yourself in the condition you are in. That one rested night of sleep you getting out of it is going to make your days harder to bare. Not preaching, talking as someone who really knows and found out the hardway.

I thought Lucid dreaming would be my escape from all the negative crap....but I didnt stop smoking weed, I didnt deal with anything and ultimatly I didnt have any lucid dreams at all. It was only when I started taking positive steps towards addressing my condition (stop smoking weed and hiding in the house all day) that my lucid dreams started to return.

Dont fall into the trap of thinking that I dont know what your going through and that giving up weed is easy to say and all that, I came out the otherside, and you can too. Lucid dreams can help you do this. When you were talking to that smoking hottie in your dream.....I'l bet you were relaxed and felt as smooth as james bond. The person you were in that dream is real, you are that person. You can be that person in your waking life, but you have to realise that your not just lumbered with your condition, you can change it. You can lucid dream.

When I was about 11 or 12 and started my study of psychology, I did so under the premise that it was not possible for logic to be different from psychologic. So, one starts off knowing that in some manner, the same idea is expressed differently by different psychological groups. I can put the same idea in many ways, the reader reacts to one or more of them, ignoring the similarity, ignoring the subject. Yet by putting them together, I have left a seed in the mind. Perhaps it will grow. I simply enhance one's internal conflict.

One of the focal points of psychology that has been ignored is the fixation of a majority of people not on what is said, but who says it. In a sense they are all looking for something to guide them. Somewhere down the road, that someone one will be reason itself.

When a person says that they are a Christian, or a Mathematician, or a Politician, or even a Philosopher, they are not saying who they are, they are giving the name of their authoritative source. Now counting how many sources they call themselves, denotes that many personality structures.

Yes you can lucid dream! If you dream, then you can lucid dream! Just do what the other guys do and you'll be on your way to flying in no time :D.

You can lucid dream, and focusing on the external is a great way to start. Quit drinking, especially if you want to start LDing. Since your already taking a benzodiazepine and an SSRI, watch out your drug intake, SSRIs can have some nasty drug combinations. If they switch you to an MAOI, be VERY careful with your drug intake. Feel free to have some marijuana (it suppresses REM sleep, so try not to do it at night if you wanna get into LDing).

Unfortunately, benzodiazepines (depending on how long you've taking them) will dull your senses. Take note of what Philosopher is saying as well. As for the "mental disorder", there is no such thing from a scientific standpoint, as a disorder is wrongly named, rather than being the opposite of order, it's really just a different order. The fact that your mind is acting differently means that something isn't "normal" in some way, for, as Philosopher was getting across, a reason that should be analyzed. Find the root of the problem, rather than the medications that dull them, that make the symptoms go away. also, Solid said weed was the cause of his anxiety, and that could happen, if you have dormant anxiety, schizophrenia, or other labeled disorders, marijuana can make them worse, see how you feel after you smoke next time, not during, but after. Try to see if marijuana use has manifested any of your "illnesses" to a further extent, see if there's a correlation.

And Philosopher, you seem to know this, but a metaphor doesn't help anything, it's the quality of the abstract that draws a person's own thoughts and realizations to the forefront of the mind. But regardless, if your goal is liberation, you're doing great, if it's others' self-realization, then statements do nothing in the comparison of questions. Do you seek the disappearance of others' ignorance? The annihilation of illusory superiority? If so, why? Do you realize the ultimate egotistic reason of your motives? Or do you speak from a standpoint of conscious awareness?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shiraniaori

And Philosopher, you seem to know this, but a metaphor doesn't help anything, it's the quality of the abstract that draws a person's own thoughts and realizations to the forefront of the mind. But regardless, if your goal is liberation, you're doing great, if it's others' self-realization, then statements do nothing in the comparison of questions. Do you seek the disappearance of others' ignorance? The annihilation of illusory superiority? If so, why? Do you realize the ultimate egotistic reason of your motives? Or do you speak from a standpoint of conscious awareness?

---

I am in a very strange position. As you know if one seeks to make the greatest change in the world, it would be on a psychological level. It would be manifest, not as man thinks, in technology, but in linguistic understanding. I can say the words, but I know they cannot be heard. That the change has been foretold is certain. That it is possible is certain. That it stems from the first principles of language is certain. But there are things that trouble me. How am I able to spend a life in a kind of isolation and not question my own sanity? Why when the principles are so self-evident have they gone unnoticed? So, in so far an unspoken way, I question myself. Why have I never met another who understands? Why when the understanding started so long ago, did it die out?

Why is it, when I say something simple, others cannot see the many threads of connections in association? Unless one takes someone by the hand and lead them like a child, they don't get it? I am confused and alone, seems terminal.

Let me put it in the simple. We build a house by the use of plans. All languages should lead us in the building of every day life the same way. By it the past becomes the present and future. Yet, the desire to know when one is speaking or thinking in accordance with sound principles of language ssems to be foreign to man's mind. This is a psychological contradiction in man.

In the beginning was the Word. is not the words of a mystic, but the beginny of a true psychological profile. Plato understood this--so did whatever had the Scrpture produced.

Now i have a great deal of work to do, but it is just writing. I searched a long time for one light and find it so odd to find none.

One of the greatest differences I find is that I spend the majority of my time reminding myself how stupid I am, how slow I am, how priitive. I critique myself constantly, yet this society fears critique like the plague. Their reactions are so odd.

Language is inert, it's just symbols. Some say there was once a language that wasn't. A language where the intangible could be communicated as if it was tangible. As for the associations and implications of simple language and common sayings, I agree. People don't often get the connection. Often you will hear people say advice that they themselves do not follow and that is an amazing example of not getting a connection. Not only do they not learn what that impacts as a whole, they don't learn what it impacts as a singular action for a singular purpose even. This is astounding to me.

People are trained from birth to reach for things they like, and avoid that which they dislike (cravings and aversion), and they have also been brought up to believe that they are great, and different, and so any logic against that, any critique, is denied, it's evaded, it's misinterpreted. Logical fallacies and predispositions are plagues of the human mind, that have spread rampantly, and the only cure is curiosity.

Curiosity of the self, and curiosity of the mind. Not curiosity about external trivialities. When one realizes the self is what is holding them back, creating misinformation, and disguising the truth, one either seeks to get rid of this "self" (ego, sin, etc) or simply tries to understand the world, and the self, regardless. Unfortunately I don't believe that this can be accessed through mere language, or should I put it, language can't be accessed without this self-understanding? I don't think our mere language can cause curiosity, I lean towards believing only doubt can, and that doubt can be instilled no matter how primitive the language.

Sorry to get off-topic. So long as your medications don't get rid of your dreams, you should be able to LD no problem. As a matter of fact, it could help you with your anxiety/depression. I'm not severely anxious/depressed myself, but I do know someone who takes Xanax daily and is severely anxious and fairly depressed, and he said that LDs make him feel happy, and sometimes even ecstatic. As for your therapists, the majority of people who LD might be mentally healthy, but that doesn't mean it's because it's easier for them. "Naturals" at LDing may as well be called a disorder as well, as part of their brains are on when they "shouldn't" be. Truth is, it's focus that will let you LD, and while anxiety can break focus, focus can also break anxiety, and LDs are a great way to start.